FF revisions

[Gargoyle_1]

What different scale exactly?

 

[Dark649]

A crossover is when two different verses with extremely different powerscaling met. Gilgamesh on the other hand is related to the Final Fantasy Verse and travelled from Final Fantasy 5 to other words (He mentions Bartz and the party in other fights) of the same Verse to fight strong opponents, so it's not a crossover.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, but even so, suddenly giving virtually every single Final Fantasy character 3-C ratings or higher, when this strongly contradicts their established scale, seems to follow the same principles. Gilgamesh is most likely scaled in proportion to any setting that he enters, for the sake of plot convenience.

 

[Gargoyle_1]

Plot convenience? Gilgamesh quite literally has nothing to do with the plot if ANY game aside from FFV.

 

[Antvasima]

I mean that his abilities have to be scaled to the same level as any setting that he appears in, regardless if that setting tops out at tier 6 or tier 2.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Antvasima

In many of the games Gilgamesh appears in, Omega (who hunts Shinryu) appears as a boss and/or a summon and is explicitly stated to be chasing Shinryu through worlds.

Furthermore, there are other feats to corroborate these ratings as well. For example, Noel and Serah in XIII-2 are able to duel Lightning, who has Moon level feats prior to their meeting. In the same vein, the heroes of IV defeated The Creator, which moved the moons of Earth a considerable distance. So no, they are not outliers. In VI, his base form fights Terra's party, who fought Kefka Palazzo and the Warring Triad, who floated a continent and moved it around at high speeds.

Gilgamesh is ridiculously consistent in his feats and scaling.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I am just worried about that we will suddenly upgrade all Final Fantasy X characters to Low 2-C or somesuch.

 

[Dark649]

Okay. I am just worried about that we will suddenly upgrade all Final Fantasy X characters to Low 2-C or somesuch.

What we are proposing is to upgrade all the Sub-Relativistic at least 5-A, possibly 3-C profiles to FTL+ 3-C via scaling from Ede and by the fact he can be summoned to damage Ultimecia.

 

[Gargoyle_1]

Bump.

Have we agreed?

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I still do not think that we should upgrade all of the Final Fantasy characters to 3-C, regardless if their practically shown scale is just tier 6, as for FFX, or tier 4, as for FFVII. Crossovers between different continuities almost always mess up the powerscaling.

 

[Dark649]

We are not upgrading all the Final Fantasy characters, only the ones from 5, 8, 13, 14 and possibly 12. Also there are several Final Fantasy characters that are scaled from Transformed Gilgamesh because Gilgamesh presence is not a crossover related thing and because most espers like Ifrit, Alexander, Bahamut and etc. reappears through the games.

 

[Antvasima]

What are their previous tiers? I am uneasy with drastic upgrades.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

5-A, possibly 3-C.

 

[Antvasima]

I have played Final Fantasy 12. There is not way that the characters within it have any feats remotely approaching 3-C.

As staff members, we must be careful to not push for vastly exaggerated upgrades, simply because we like a certain franchise, and stick to the no crossover scaling rule.

 

[Dark649]

Then if the scaling from Gilgamesh is not reliable then the FF verses will be changed to their previous version.

FF1 profiles: 6-C via Nitro Powder calc and Chaos will be at Unknown.

FF5 profiles: Remains the same [At least 5-A, possibly 3-C] through Exdeath and the Crystals feats.

FF12 profiles: Unknown [There are no serious feats in the game]

FF 13 profiles: 5-C via Orphan power.

FF 14 profiles: Unknown [Same situation to FF12]

FF 15 profiles: Unknown [Same situation to FF14]

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

@Dark. 8? You mean 5?

That aside, @Ant. Would you expect say, Kirby having feats that make tanking small galaxy exposions seem minimal? Probably not the point you're trying to make, but I digress. Scaling can trump feats at times.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, that is obviously not a perfect solution, but the FF13 profiles might be possible to scale from Bhunivelse, the FF8 profiles from Ultimecia, etcetera.

I would appreciate if somebody can check if the OBD has any useful calculations for the feats from the games, that we can also use to scale from.

 

[Dark649]

I forgot about FF8 profiles, which are FTL+ Galaxy level via scaling from Eden, Adel and Ultimecia. Also Kirby is not related to this topic, so that should be not discussed here.

 

[Dark649]

Well, that is obviously not a perfect solution, but the FF13 profiles might be possible to scale from Bhunivelse, the FF8 profiles from Ultimecia, etcetera.

That should not be considered because only Lightning was able to fight Bhunivelze, everyone else in the verse would get stomped by him, also scaling the party by fighting Cloud of Darkness, Neo Exdeath and Ultimecia is the same as scaling Kirby to Magolor, Mario to Dreamy Bowser and Sonic to Solaris.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[Gargoyle_1]

Shall they be applied?

Also, the void Cloud of Darkness uses is the same void that consumed Exdeath is it not? Shouldn't it make him positively 2C?

 

[Reppuzan]

@Dark

I heavily disagree with many of the downgrades you proposed.

1) In Final Fantasy I, Marilith alone (a relatively early boss) has Large Country level feats, and that's not even including the fact that you can also fight Omega and Shinryu, who also run through the different Final Fantasy games in the same vein as Gilgamesh.

2) In Final Fantasy XII you fight the Espers, including Zodiark who busts reality in his vicinity with its Final Eclipse attack. Furthermore, Vaan and co. earn the right to command and summon them after defeating them in battle, as do the heroes of Final Fantasy Tactics Advance A2. These Espers also serve as the lynchpins that keep all of Ivalice in existence during Final Fantasy Tactics Advance. It's hardly inconsistent.

3) Omega appears yet again in Final Fantasy XIII-2. It's also a natural jump from the Moon-level feats.

Feats are important, but scaling trumps feats in this scenario in the same way that Power Rangers are scaled up to Planet level.

I don't know enough about Final Fantasy XIV or Final Fantasy XV to offer a clear opinion on them though.

 

[Gargoyle_1]

Speaking of calc's can someone recheck the Ultimecia feat that puts FF8 at FTL+

 

[Antvasima]

@Reppuzan Okay. Thank you for the help.

 

[Witch_Bernkastel]

Speaking of calc's can someone recheck the Ultimecia feat that puts FF8 at FTL+

There is nothing wrong with that calculaion (since it seems you guys just lifted in from the OBD?). Whether you take the reasoning behind the calculation to scale to the VIII characters is a different thing entirely.

 

[Gargoyle_1]

Nothing wrong? Cool. All I needed to know.

 

[Gargoyle_1]

Bump

 

[Gargoyle_1]

Bump

 

[Dark649]

I think it's better to search all the notable FF Feats from all the 15 games.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Dark

The only troublesome games are I, XI, XII (which is debatable since the heroes can defeat and summon Zodiark, who made the gods that created Ivalice tremble), XIV, and XV. The rest have calced or otherwise justified feats on their profiles already.

 

[Dark649]

The XII party defeated Kid Zodiark and not Adult Zodiark, which is much stronger.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Dark

The whole reason why he's still a kid is because of the fact that the gods were terrified of his full power from the moment he was born.

Both Vaan's Party and Luso's Clan are able to handle his power.

 

[Dark649]

Yes, also they can take The Undying and Feolthanos Megaflare without problems.

 

[Dark649]

Also, the void Cloud of Darkness uses is the same void that consumed Exdeath is it not? Shouldn't it make him positively 2C?

Exdeath was consumed by the void, but he managed to merge with it (This can be confirmed by his Omnipresent speed stat and its justification and since Cloud of Darkness is 2-C by being the Void in FF3) upon becoming Neo-Exdeath, i fully agree.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Dark649

I'm really not getting where the whole "merged the void" thing comes from. The game just said he was engulfed by it.

I guess I missed a spot check with his speed stat.

 

[Witch_Bernkastel]

Where do you guys get that the Cloud of Darkness (III) is the same as the Void? In all material, including follow-up spin-offs, it's only been noted as a sort of emmisary of the Void.

 

[Dark649]

I checked and yes, it is not the physical manifestation of the void, it is just a being that stated to bring the world of light and darkness into nothingness by using the flood of darkness and it only showcased the feat of an earthquake that almost drew the floating continent to the surface world, so its page has several mistakes.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Feel free to correct those mistakes then.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Dark649

The fact that it was going to destroy the World of Light and Darkness should still justify its rating regardless, since only the Warriors of Light and Dusk managed to hold it back.

That said, Final Fantasy III was one of the few FF games I never played to completion, so I suppose my overall knowledge is circumstantial at best.

 

[Dark649]

@Dark649
The fact that it was going to destroy the World of Light and Darkness should still justify its rating regardless, since only the Warriors of Light and Dusk managed to hold it back.

It never did it, it's just a statement like Neo-Exdeath threatening to destroy everything, also that is a possibly Low 2-C feat.