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Felicia Mitsuki vs. The Doom Slayer
- Thread starter Jinsye
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@DTG and why would the heat be suddenly 5-B? If heat and AP are different, it wouldn't be '5-B heat'.
@Jaakubb I linked some stuff in my post, both the actual science and the thread that decided how we treat heat disagree with you.
@Jaakubb I linked some stuff in my post, both the actual science and the thread that decided how we treat heat disagree with you.
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No, but it does say it depends on the verse. Both verses disagree.
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Lolwat? The science article only talks about cells, not the amount of energy required to melt an object vs destroy it. Also how do the verses disagree with me? They say nothing about heat resistance vs normal dura. And the default assumption is that something works how it does in real life, not some arbitrary assumption about how it might work.SomebodyData said:
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@Jaakubb The article before the cell death one. this one.
As for the verses:
PMMM showing heat and fire correlated with an energy blast from Raspberry (I think its the witch's name, might be confusing with the latter two.) Tart is unaffected by being burned alive and her attack shows clear burnt marks upon a castle.
BFG9000 currently gets its tiering from the AP from vaporizatio.
"And the default assumption is that something works how it does in real life, not some arbitrary assumption about how it might work."
Yes, you're correct. So why are you arguing heat and energy are uncorrelated in regards to vaporization, or have I been misunderstanding you?
As for the verses:
PMMM showing heat and fire correlated with an energy blast from Raspberry (I think its the witch's name, might be confusing with the latter two.) Tart is unaffected by being burned alive and her attack shows clear burnt marks upon a castle.
BFG9000 currently gets its tiering from the AP from vaporizatio.
"And the default assumption is that something works how it does in real life, not some arbitrary assumption about how it might work."
Yes, you're correct. So why are you arguing heat and energy are uncorrelated in regards to vaporization, or have I been misunderstanding you?
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I dont get how the article before the cell death one disagrees with me. There is still no strict proportional relationship between energy to melt vs destroy an object. You dont even have to completely melt the object; i remember seeing a video of this guy heating up steel to a temperature below its melting point, and it weakened the steel to a point where he could easily bend it. I could link to the video if you insist. Right now im on mobile so im too lazy.
Now the verses: I dont see how the first video shows 1:1 correlarion between heat resistance and normal durability. It has no subs. I dont speak japanese dude. As for the latter two videos, im talking about the bfg's heat melting/vaporizing their soul gems, not just their normal bodies or whatever. The attacks shown did involve heat, but we cant just assume that they were on the same magnitude as DS's weapons. Bfg9k is superior to the something-something megakelvin (if you want i could get more specific and cite source) laser that couldnt even dent his praetor armor. Or at least its able to vaporize large amounts of flesh.
I honestly dont know if we apply the logic of "if x character can survive a heat attack with y joules, then they should be able to survive a normal attack with y joules." Either way the bfg9k's AP doesnt matter here, its temperature does.
Im not arguing that heat and energy are uncorrelated in regards to vaporization. Im saying that even if we're talking about a material like a soul gem instead of cells, machinery, other things that operate with chemical reactions, etc. you still cant tank high amounts of heat with raw dura. Unless the verses imply otherwise of course. I dont see how they do.
Now the verses: I dont see how the first video shows 1:1 correlarion between heat resistance and normal durability. It has no subs. I dont speak japanese dude. As for the latter two videos, im talking about the bfg's heat melting/vaporizing their soul gems, not just their normal bodies or whatever. The attacks shown did involve heat, but we cant just assume that they were on the same magnitude as DS's weapons. Bfg9k is superior to the something-something megakelvin (if you want i could get more specific and cite source) laser that couldnt even dent his praetor armor. Or at least its able to vaporize large amounts of flesh.
I honestly dont know if we apply the logic of "if x character can survive a heat attack with y joules, then they should be able to survive a normal attack with y joules." Either way the bfg9k's AP doesnt matter here, its temperature does.
Im not arguing that heat and energy are uncorrelated in regards to vaporization. Im saying that even if we're talking about a material like a soul gem instead of cells, machinery, other things that operate with chemical reactions, etc. you still cant tank high amounts of heat with raw dura. Unless the verses imply otherwise of course. I dont see how they do.
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"Matter changes state when energy is added or taken away."
I'm not trying to prove 1:1 correlation and never had. Just pointing out that you're arguing that 8-B heat is capable of vaporizing flesh / soul gems on a low 7-B level, a gap of over hundreds of times of energy. Their soul gems are more durable than their bodies, so by saying it can melt/vaporize a soul gem is to say the same for flesh. I never said it was
Yes, we do apply the logic, that's why its 8-B in the first place. Temperature is correlated to energy and by extension AP, the only time it doesn't matter if its death via something like cell death, which is irrelevant here.
Well Doom implies this, given both the Spider Mastermind and CyberDemon resist via durability. However, even if it didn't, you realize how large the gap is right? Several hundreds at minimum.
I'm not trying to prove 1:1 correlation and never had. Just pointing out that you're arguing that 8-B heat is capable of vaporizing flesh / soul gems on a low 7-B level, a gap of over hundreds of times of energy. Their soul gems are more durable than their bodies, so by saying it can melt/vaporize a soul gem is to say the same for flesh. I never said it was
Yes, we do apply the logic, that's why its 8-B in the first place. Temperature is correlated to energy and by extension AP, the only time it doesn't matter if its death via something like cell death, which is irrelevant here.
Well Doom implies this, given both the Spider Mastermind and CyberDemon resist via durability. However, even if it didn't, you realize how large the gap is right? Several hundreds at minimum.
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Spider mastermind and cyberdemon survive via heat resistance, not durability. If the profile says they do it's wrong. As said multiple times in this thread being 7-B will not guarantee survival of a 8-B heat attack.
I'll deal with the huge gap of energy in a bit.
Also isnt DS supposed to be super overkill? I will admit I've never watched PMMM so I'm probably wrong, but I'm assuming the soul gem is kind of like the gems in Steven universe (not too big of a fan of this show fyi)? I doubt their Regenerationn is instant. DS would destroy their bodies and see a soul gem lying on the floor. He'd probably grab it and crush it in his hands like with every other demonic thing he finds, like the argent cells or those demon gate thingies. If he cant crush it then he'll just smash it.
I'll deal with the huge gap of energy in a bit.
Also isnt DS supposed to be super overkill? I will admit I've never watched PMMM so I'm probably wrong, but I'm assuming the soul gem is kind of like the gems in Steven universe (not too big of a fan of this show fyi)? I doubt their Regenerationn is instant. DS would destroy their bodies and see a soul gem lying on the floor. He'd probably grab it and crush it in his hands like with every other demonic thing he finds, like the argent cells or those demon gate thingies. If he cant crush it then he'll just smash it.
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Just found this useful tidbit about the flame belch saying it's 1000 C and when you convert that heat into AP/joules you get 9-B. In game when you use it on a 9-C Former Human and a 9-A Barron of Hell they both get lit on fire and take equal amounts of damage(which is pretty much zero). So doom does in fact treat heat as a resistance.
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@Jaakub
Well you can make the thread if you want, but untill then, you can't really go against it unless you prove it on a CRT.
No their soul gems are more durable than their actual bodies, it just became a misconception that they're like tier 9 because they got one-shot by the high tiers. Not to mention the amount of stat amps and reducs that Felicia has, its why AP was never an argument in the first place and it immediately went to heat.
@DTG
Right, so you're using game mechanics to prove it? Not sure what to tell you but we don't use game mechanics.
Well you can make the thread if you want, but untill then, you can't really go against it unless you prove it on a CRT.
No their soul gems are more durable than their actual bodies, it just became a misconception that they're like tier 9 because they got one-shot by the high tiers. Not to mention the amount of stat amps and reducs that Felicia has, its why AP was never an argument in the first place and it immediately went to heat.
@DTG
Right, so you're using game mechanics to prove it? Not sure what to tell you but we don't use game mechanics.
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What?! Yes we do! When we have lore that directly contradicts what the gameplay is showing then yes we prioritize lore over gameplay. But we use gameplay all the time, doomguy has time slow listed as an ability on his profile when it's just shown via a rune only found in gameplay, ice manipulation resistance just because he shots the ice grenade at his feet and it doesn't hurt him, Cyber Demon is 8-B because he tanks BFG shots IN THE GAMEPLAY. This is the lore of the flame belch in conjunction of its gameplay and they don't contradict so the point still stands.
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@DTG Again, I'm not sure what to tell you DTG, currently the profiles show he scales to the AP of the BFG. If you want to say otherwise, make a CRT.
@Bambuwhy is everything crossed tho?
The thread you're referring to concluded with it being verse by verse, considering DOOM's profiles (Spider Mastermind and CyberDemon) show that to not be the case, that's where the issue here lies.
Not to mention that was for stuff like cell death, not things that actively need AP like the thread is arguing (Vaporizing).
That, and the fact that this is the Low 7-B versions of the characters, not the 8-B/Low 5-B stuff. Still not sure why the BFG is being mentioned...
@Bambu
The thread you're referring to concluded with it being verse by verse, considering DOOM's profiles (Spider Mastermind and CyberDemon) show that to not be the case, that's where the issue here lies.
Not to mention that was for stuff like cell death, not things that actively need AP like the thread is arguing (Vaporizing).
That, and the fact that this is the Low 7-B versions of the characters, not the 8-B/Low 5-B stuff. Still not sure why the BFG is being mentioned...
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Yes. Without Fire Manip resistance. Or the fact that in verses where its uncorrelated, you don't scale.
Heck, you even pointed out they still get burnt by 1000C fire in-game.
Heck, you even pointed out they still get burnt by 1000C fire in-game.
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The 9-C weapons hurting higher tier demons is considered game mechanics, so I'd say them getting burnt by that stuff doesn't really cound.
I agree that the demons scaling to the heat could be iffy though.
But even if they do, it's Felicia that needs to prove that she can tank heat as AP. Stuff like the microwave gun and the bfg have normal heat effects on your average enemy, so unless Felicia is like some characters (dnd and ergenverse come to mind with that) that tank heat as AP, it should still work on her all the same.
IDK if her soul would be affected by that, even if it's a physical object.
I agree that the demons scaling to the heat could be iffy though.
But even if they do, it's Felicia that needs to prove that she can tank heat as AP. Stuff like the microwave gun and the bfg have normal heat effects on your average enemy, so unless Felicia is like some characters (dnd and ergenverse come to mind with that) that tank heat as AP, it should still work on her all the same.
IDK if her soul would be affected by that, even if it's a physical object.
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Yes, and 1000C hurts the characters that take damage from the BFG 9k.
Because its game mechanics.
Like I already said, unless you want to argue the BFG is actually around 1000C and thus not enough to vaporize Felicia.
Because its game mechanics.
Like I already said, unless you want to argue the BFG is actually around 1000C and thus not enough to vaporize Felicia.
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How is that even remotely what I'm trying to get at?!SomebodyData said:
The flame belch does absolutely no damage to demons with its heat but it's heat is 9-B in AP but still does no damage to 9-Cs. I never said or implied the the flame belch scales to the BFG and I have no idea how you got that impression. The point of the flame belch is that doom treats is that it proves that doom treats heat and AP differently, that's it. I'm sure you already know that the BFG is way hotter than 1000 C and as matter of fact everyone now agrees that it would be hotter than 2 mega kelvin laser from new statements.
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So..?SomebodyData said:
The damage it does is extremely minimal, and handguns do damage too.
The fact stays, the canon decription and explaination of the weapons takes precedence over game mechanics, and the explainations show that the BFG vaporizes all liquids in an enemy on hit.
So that's what it does here.
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What's exactly is the extent of her stat reducs?
Also I'd be willing to do a CRT for classic DG and spider mastermind/other more powerful demons. What the actual lore says holds more water than how we decided to profile the characters. Even if DTG499's example is meaningless and just game mechanics, then it is still the default assumption that the verse treats heat vs normal AP differently, as it is in real life. Unless there is evidence that the verse doesn't do this. But the only "evidence" is a flawed character profile we have.
Also just wondering what Ricsi and DTG think: Do you think that heat could bypass the soul gem's dura as well? Not just their normal body but the actual soul gem.
Also I'd be willing to do a CRT for classic DG and spider mastermind/other more powerful demons. What the actual lore says holds more water than how we decided to profile the characters. Even if DTG499's example is meaningless and just game mechanics, then it is still the default assumption that the verse treats heat vs normal AP differently, as it is in real life. Unless there is evidence that the verse doesn't do this. But the only "evidence" is a flawed character profile we have.
Also just wondering what Ricsi and DTG think: Do you think that heat could bypass the soul gem's dura as well? Not just their normal body but the actual soul gem.
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I'm just going to say that if you're going to argue which character wins some more points on other things aside from heat aee also kinda important.
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Everything was crossed out coz you're a bit wrong. Everything was concluded to be verse by verse, that's true, but to my knowledge, DOOM isn't immune to the effects of that thread. I dunno what exactly about the Spider Mastermind, et al, you're referring to, but still. This isn't a thread I'm really interested in, considering my limited experience with Puella, but I thought I should extend my knowledge of the situation. You can't really just say "it's ap so she resists" nowadays.
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@Risci my comment was to DTG, with the same points you had except trying to point out the absurdity of using game mechanics with a contradictory example in the same logic. Sorry if it wasn't apparent.
@Jaakub he ain't destroying her soul gem. Doomslayer is >>> above 7-C (Arriving at Low 7-B merely from power boost scaling), while Felicia (without any of the abilities or boosts) is >>> 2847 kilotons, especially her soul gem which stays intact from even her 7-B shockwaves from berserk mode.
@Schnee heat is the only argument that works atm I believe, unless they want to argue scaling.
@Jaakub he ain't destroying her soul gem. Doomslayer is >>> above 7-C (Arriving at Low 7-B merely from power boost scaling), while Felicia (without any of the abilities or boosts) is >>> 2847 kilotons, especially her soul gem which stays intact from even her 7-B shockwaves from berserk mode.
@Schnee heat is the only argument that works atm I believe, unless they want to argue scaling.
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@Mr. Bambu I'm saying she resists cell death from her immortality type 2, and that vaporizing requires AP, regardless of the thread. Sorry if I didn't make that clear with my response.
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Lol no. DS is low 7-B because of a featSomebodyData said:
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Ah I see, didn't realize there was another reason outside the AP's descriptions on the page.
That's better, but with all the stat reduc / amps its still not enough to one-shot Felicia. Especially when she has Status Effect Inducement which includes Stun, Curse, Skill Seal, and Dazzle.
That's better, but with all the stat reduc / amps its still not enough to one-shot Felicia. Especially when she has Status Effect Inducement which includes Stun, Curse, Skill Seal, and Dazzle.
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I mean the skill seal in technological weapons?
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@Oliver Yeah, quite a few PMMM weapons are technological even if we don't consider the soul gem. Though it only negs passive ones, so it shouldn't really matter much except for his resistances / his armor.
@DTG you saying the verse actively uses game mechanics to list things, or do you mean we use game stats in the verse? I have doubts, considering DDM and other experienced members look over the verse.
@DTG you saying the verse actively uses game mechanics to list things, or do you mean we use game stats in the verse? I have doubts, considering DDM and other experienced members look over the verse.
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Doomguy would get his stats reduced by a factor of how much? How often can she use the stun how long does it last, doomguy has a stun too. What type of curse are we dealing with? Do not think skill seal will be a factor since power ups aren't really his skills. What the hell is a dazzle?
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I linked the descriptions for the abilities to explain them with my comment. Skill seal is just a name and so is dazzle.
She resists stun and several general status effects too tho.
She resists stun and several general status effects too tho.
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I'll give multiple examples.SomebodyData said:
Cyberdemon is only 8-B because we see him in game survive BFG shots.
Barron of Hell is super sonic because he is able to catch up to doomguy in game.
Doomguy has timeslow because of the game mechanics of one of the runes.
Doomguy has ice manipulation resistance because when you play the game and you shot it at your feet it does nothing to you. Game mechanics!
Doom's chainsaw is 9-A because it can one shot a Barron in game.
"It's spout spits out a flame exceeding 1000 C, setting even the sturdiest of demons a flame" If the game mechanics line up with the lore we still use them.
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I'd let DDM or someone else explain, since I'm finding it hard to believe they all actively ignored site rules for DOOM.
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