Fate Manip resistance for Godless Planet Characters

[DontTalkDT]

You will find a basic explanation on Ether on basically any Godless Planet profile, as well as an explanation of Divine Rank.
The TL;DR is: Everything is made out of Ether, including matter, energy, space, laws of nature and information of an even more abstract level than those things. Divine Rank makes the Gods Resist (or mostly nullify) any attempt of Ether Manipulation on each other by any other gods.

With the established information out of the way, why should the gods (or specifically the Divine Rank users) have Fate Manipulation resistance?
Well, @Celestial_Pegasus showed me a quote from Clash of Hexennacht, a sequel of Godless Planet, that clarifies an aspect of Ether:

“Yeah.” Hunter simply nodded. “The Black Witch probably has some control over ether. Just like you, Kagami. Ether runs through the ley lines and controls both time and destiny, so if you could ‘ride’ that, it might behave in accordance to your wishes."

So Ether is not only the stuff everthing is made of, but it also what controls destiny... they weren't kidding when they said everything is made from Ether, huh?

Anyway, as the gods resist having their Ether changed, changing their destiny by changing their Ether would be resisted. So they should have resistance to that.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Seems fine.

 

[Antoniofer]

Honestly I find it kind of vague. Can they literally manipulate what will or not happen in the future, or is a flowey way of saying they can change history in a more mundane way?

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Here is the full context

“It was the same as ten years ago. The ‘side effects’ of the Black Witch came from the moon, but they moved at extremely high speeds before reaching the earth’s atmosphere. And once they entered the atmosphere, they slowed to a speed we can perceive. …I wonder if that’s the world conforming to our reactions.”
“I will leave it to you two to decide how much that performance conforms to this world’s rules.”
“Yeah.” Hunter simply nodded. “The Black Witch probably has some control over ether. Just like you, Kagami. Ether runs through the ley lines and controls both time and destiny, so if you could ‘ride’ that, it might behave in accordance to your wishes. When reaching out her arm, her hand is quickly moved forward until it can clearly be seen as a symbol of fear. Once it’s close enough for us to recognize that performance, it slows down to a speed that she can actually control. That would be my guess,” she said. “So if we measure the waves of ether coming from the moon both inside and outside the earth’s atmosphere, the difference in amplitude can tell us how quickly the Black Witch approaches.” -Volume 2, Chapter 2

Basically this was an explanation of why Shouko's gigantic shadow arm thing was able to go from the Moon to Earth in seconds and that not having major effects on the world.

As for manipulating history, Shouko can already do that

“There are no detailed records of the battle with the Black Witch or how either side fought.”
“Why not?”
Horinouchi answered that question.
“Because they were ‘erased’ by the Black Witch. From this world, from history, from everything.”
“You mean…?”
“That is the Black Witch’s power. It is a spell we call Concept Erasure,” she explained. “It is the opposite of the power that created this world. The power to destroy this world and erase anything in it is used on whoever loses. …So my mother’s ability to resist was erased and the records were erased.”
“Instead of the power used to write and create this world, it’s the power to erase. …All records concerning the spells Horinouchi’s mom used to oppose the Black Witch were erased with an eraser.”
“If everything was erased together, I can see how there would be a blank at those portions alone,” said Kagami.-Volume 3, Chapter 1

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Looks good to me

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

Agree
Also wouldn`t ether manipulation be concept manipulation since its is a fundemental aspect of reality.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Agree
Also wouldn`t ether manipulation be concept manipulation since its is a fundemental aspect of reality.

I feel like Ether manipulation in many other verses would be considered as such, as Ether molds are also the things giving objects their properties/information, buuuut... well, the verse actually has explicit concept manipulation that is one level of abstraction above Ether still. The verse, in particular, is a sequel to Owari no Chronicle which has concept beasts like this.

Concept Manipulation via Ether is not impossible, though, as paradox as it is. Due to Ether being linked to the Concept of Contradiction Allowance Ether can technically do anything, even if it doesn't make sense. The Black Witch can do her conceptual erasure via what quite possibly is Ether Manipulation and, while I haven't read that either yet, Horizon in the Middle of Nowhere has a concept cutting Ether weapon.
So it's possible conceptual stuff will be added at some point, but I haven't read far enough yet to argue for it properly.

Well, actually, I do plan to make a thread regarding what name manipulation powers like Ichibe's should beclassified as. Depending on the result we might get concept manip sooner, as On a Godless Planet and Clash of Hexennacht both have an ability of that nature (but IMO with better explanations than Ichibe's). So if Ichibe doesn't get downgraded in that thread these characters would get upgraded to have some Type 2 Concept Manip.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Honestly I find it kind of vague. Can they literally manipulate what will or not happen in the future, or is a flowey way of saying they can change history in a more mundane way?

Does the extra info above suffice for you?
I could maybe add that the controls time part is quite literal, as Ether has been used to slow down time and stuff, so it is likely that the fate statement is also relatively literal.
Whether they manipulate fate to any notable extent when using Ether of course depends on the individual. Many might not use this aspect of the nature of Ether at all in their techniques, which is why it's more about those that can defend from Ether Manip.

 

[Antoniofer]

Well, I do not question the use of Ether to manipulate time and alter past events, although just throwing an "I can alter destiny" statement without elaborating may lead to speculation.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Well, I do not question the use of Ether to manipulate time and alter past events, although just throwing an "I can alter destiny" statement without elaborating may lead to speculation.

I see. I went looking for some better evidence for Ether-based destiny manipulation in Kawakami's novels and I think I found some good stuff.
First, there are a few characters capable of feeling out destiny to predict the future. Here's one example from Clash of Hexennacht Volume 4:

“Are you talking about the representative battle against me?”

Lisbeth felt like her question chilled the air. A-un Silver Coin likely knew what her question meant. Finally, the woman sighed with a slight smile.

“This is top secret,” she said. “My ‘reading’ back then was pretty long-term, but it said the final representative should have defeated the Black Witch.”



…If Mitsuyo was supposed to win, why did she lose?

Lisbeth asked a few “why” questions and followed the mental path that the answers laid out for her.

Why had A-un Silver Coin’s “reading” said Mitsuyo would win?

Why had that “reading” been wrong?

And if such “readings” were possible, why…

“…Did you ‘read’ that you could not win the representative battle against me?”

“No? Destiny…or would you call it a thread? A lot of it changes as you draw that thread in. I can ‘read’ things, but it takes time, right? I look down at that thread and read it, but some people will draw the thread in partway through and some will intertwine it with another thread.”

Fortunetelling witches often said there was more than one destiny.

“In my case, I simultaneously read a series of about 30 threads located around the target, but I lost that time. …Thanks to some sudden interference.”

However, while that shows destiny is a thing in the verse reading and manipulating it are different things, so I kept looking.
I found what I was searching for in Panzerpolis Berlin 1937, one of Kawakami's older novels that plays in the far future of Godless Planet and Clash of Hexennacht.
There a character has a sword called Gelegenheit, which can cut destiny.
Here some examples of that:

The single Text she heard came from empty space, not from Berger’s mouth or from Gelegenheit.

<My Destiny does not yet bring death.>

That was all.

That was all it took for the three magic bullets to pass behind Berger and Hazel.

“Eh?”

Hazel tried to question what had just happened, but Berger pulled on her hand.

A moment later, the magic bullets hit the glass door behind them.

She turned toward the loud noise to see light and explosions blowing away the door.

…They didn’t hit us!?

She looked and saw the black blade had vanished from Gelegenheit in Berger’s hand. He flipped the hilt around in his hand and flicked the Phlogiston Tank with his thumb. The screw holding it in loosened and he removed it from the weapon.

“You used it up already? But those things will run a radio for a full year.”

“I cut through our destiny of death. That’s worth at least a year of radio, don’t you think?”

He pulled Phlogiston Tanks from his black coat and attached them to the back of the weapon.

The first caused a 2-yard dark blade to burst out.

The second extended the dark blade to 4 yards where it severed the ceiling’s “destiny to fall”.

The shadowy blade sliced right through the ether fields decorating the falling ceiling, returning the ceiling to its original form.

He was about 20 yards from Schweitzer now.

He raised Gelegenheit and swung it down.

<Not even heaven can escape the threads of Destiny!!>

A lightning-like slash tore through the ceiling in a straight line, repairing it.

The mesh of bluish-white squares covering the ceiling were sliced through by the darkness and the falling ceiling instantly returned to its original position.

It had severed the thread of “destiny” created by Der Held to tell that area of space to collapse.

Now, to complete the argument we need evidence that Gelegenheit does in fact use Ether.
As the quote says the sword uses Phlogiston Tanks to be powered. What is Phlogiston?

The Phlogiston – a fuel made from ether – suddenly cut out.

Nothing but Ether Fuel.

So yeah, Destiny Cutting Ether swords exist, so the statement that Ether controls destiny is well supported.

 

[Antvasima]

It seems like this can probably be applied then.

 

[Antoniofer]

I see, albeit it seems more to me that manipulating fate is a potential application of ether rather than inherent ability that everyone can use simply by having access to ether. I can't guarantee or deny than the statement from OP refer to manipulating fate in the same way than Gelegenheit does it.

 

[DontTalkDT]

I see, albeit it seems more to me that manipulating fate is a potential application of ether rather than inherent ability that everyone can use simply by having access to ether. I can't guarantee or deny than the statement from OP refer to manipulating fate in the same way than Gelegenheit does it.

It is just a potential application, yes. That's why I don't intend to give everyone fate manip. But the application should be resisted by those that resist the effects of ether manip in general.

 

[Antvasima]

It is just a potential application, yes. That's why I don't intend to give everyone fate manip. But the application should be resisted by those that resist the effects of ether manip in general.

@Antoniofer

 

[Antoniofer]

OK, it seems fine then.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you. It seems like DontTalks suggestions can probably be applied then.