Explanation for Bloom's Concept Manipulation?

[Monarch_Laciel]

Current explanation is:

Conceptual Manipulation (the dragon flame created everything in the magic dimension, including magic itself and its creation Arcadia was the first fairy in existence to use magic)

This really doesn't seem like concept manipulation to me. Creation and magic. But not concept manipulation

 

[Antvasima]

I agree, but would prefer more input.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Hmm. Well we have characters like Arceus who have it for creating the concepts of time, space, anti-matter, etc.

If THAT is true (again if) then shouldnt Bloom be given the same thing? Magic did not exist period at all until the Great Dragon used the dragon flame to create the magic dimension, where everything magicial comes from. It also created Arcadia whos literally the first fairy ever to exist and the first one to ultilize magic.

 

[DontTalk]

creating a universe Ôëá creating the concepts of the universe

being the first one to use something or to create something that is the first Ôëá creating their concept


Else every 2-C that can create a timeline would have concept manipulation over everything that is in the timeline.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Well for one, its not just a universe. Its a dimension with multiple of them in it.

And 2, I dont see what the rest has to do with it. Even if Arcadia being the first to use it doesnt mean anything, that still doesnt change the fact that Magic never existed or was a concept period in Winx Club until the G.D. created it.

 

[DontTalk]

That it never existed before doesn't matter for concepts, since that doesn't imply that the concept didn't already exist.


That the concept didn't exist before is something you must proof and the only way to do that is if it is explicitely stated that the concept didn't exist before.

The state and nature of the world can not be used to reason the state of concepts.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Because before the magic dimension there was absolute nothing? The G.D. is basically the Arceus of Winx Club to make this into shorter terms. With all due respect DT, im confused by what your implying here.

It created all of magic and the entire magic dimension itself entirely and the magic dimension is literally where all of magic entirely comes from. All of magic. There was no magic or anything of the sort prior to its creation. Meaning no M.D. = no magic period. How would that not be creating a concept?

 

[DontTalk]

How would it be creating a concept?

Your explanation doesn't mention any step of reasoning to connect "creating all magic in existence" to "creating the concept of magic".


To also give yet another conter example: Before the creation of the universe there was no gravity (as there was no matter). But how would that imply that the law of universal gravitation wasn't already in place back then? Same relation between creating all magic and creating the concept of magic.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

But the issue with this is how can the law of universal gravitation be set in place before the universe if there was nothing there? And this is assuming the creation of our universe came before any other ones (if they even exist), let alone it being the same as the creation of Winx Club.

Even time and space itself didnt exist when the G.D. was born.

 

[DontTalk]

But the issue with this is how can the law of universal gravitation be set in place before the universe if there was nothing there?

Why would it not? The law of universal gravitation isn't a physical object. Neither does it per se need a creator and "nothing" only describes the physical world.

The law of universal gravitation would be true even in a complete vaccum free from all matter (and the theoretical case of being free from gravity). In such a space you could not find anything that currently obeys it, but it exists non the less.


Laws aren't necessarily tied to the physical world or on being applied to anything in it. A law of physic can exist even if there is not anything that obeys it.


What says that before the universe was created a being that can create spacetime and matter could make gravity work differently in the universe than it actually does? There is nothing indicating that.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Hmm. Well yes I can see that working for Gravity but Magic should be in an entirely different boat. Similar to Arceus, the Great Dragon came into being in a void where there was nothing, before time, space and existence came and there when it simiply breathed, the dragon flame admited created everything. All of heat, life, energy, even magic itself. It is at that point magic was first to be used by ones who it can be applied to, like Arcadia the first fairy to ever exist and both her and the Ethereal Fairies who exist and came before Time and Space itself.

From the lore of the Winx Verse, these orders of events should clearly imply Magic was never a thing to begin with and was only brought into creation when the dragon flame from the Great Dragon came into play. The fact that even beings who are timeless and came before space-time and everything else couldnt apply Magic to themselves to use until the G.D. created the magic dimension would mean Magic never always existed and was only appliable when the verse was brought into creation.

 

[Antvasima]

Hmm. Both DontTalk and ProfessorKukui4Life make good points. Perhaps "Possibly Conceptual Manipulation" would be an acceptable compromise?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I'm perfectly fine with that option Ant.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

I don't know enough about the series to be sure, but creating magic, or creating space-time doens't equate to creating the concept of such.

 

[Antvasima]

That is true, but in this case it Kukui claims that magic did not exist before Bloom created it.

 

[DontTalk]

Well, there is just again the difference between creating something that did not exist before and creating the concept of something whichs concept did not exist before.

For example: Just because I create a magic book, that never existed before and that nobody except me in the verse would be able to create, that doesn't mean I created the concept of that magic book.


Similar here: Just because the dragon created magic, magic didn't exist before and nobody else could have created magic that doesn't mean that the concept of magic was created.

It just means that the dragon was the one to grant magical power to the universe.


@Ant: The thing is the same argumentation could be applied to every single creator being that is part of a creation myth of some fiction, for whatever things exist in their universe.

Hence I am rather dissatisfied with a compromise.


Though possibly I should discuss the issue of conceptual creation in a thread that isn't related to a particular fiction to get a general agreement on which feats should be required, as it appears to become a reoccuring issue.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Notify me if you make that thread, I have a few things to say on the issue of concept manipulation

 

[Antvasima]

@DontTalk

Okay. I will remove the power then.

If your thread is accepted, you can then modify the Conceptual Manipulation page.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

But the issue here is that if the concept of magic already existed then how do you explain beings who existed and came before existence not being able to use it until it was made? Like the G.D. they lived in the void before the magic dimension and Magic itself came and they couldn't apply the power to themselves for their own use until magic as a whole was created. It would be similar to your gravity example

@Monarch

I never said creating space-time means creating a concept.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Bump

 

[DontTalk]

Well, for one thing you claimed that all magic comes form the magic dimension, in which case the mechanism of the verses magic requires the physical existence of that in order for magic to be useable.

I am btw. confused by the fact that you claim that the dragon was before everything, but at the same time that the Ethereal Fairies existed before him.


Ignoring both of this there is also the "magician without mana" analogy. Essentially before the dragon practically created magic power in the universe, which beings then could have (or which he granted to beings after their creation), nobody could use magic through the practical lack of magic power existing.

Just like a lightbulb wouldn't shine before creation of anything else due to the practicle lack of something that can produce an electrical current.


That is btw. especially true, because before the concept of magic was created beings shouldn't really be able to try using it either, since magic itself would be a completly unknown thing. (in other words if they knew they couldn't use magic the concept probably already existed. Else they couldn't know that they couldn't use it since they couldn't have tried)


btw. can you give sources to the information of the creation myth? Knowing what was specifically said could be helpful as well (and could be added to the feats section of the profile actually).


(I will try to create the general thread today or in the next few days. I will try to keep the introduction text as short as possible)

 

[Antvasima]

@DontTalk Okay. If it is accepted, you can edit the Conceptual Manipulation page.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

@Donttalk my bad for not clarifying because you being confused is justified.

When I say the Ethereal Fairies came before time and space, I never meant it as they came before the Great Dragon. Basically the dragon came first then Arcadia and the Ethereal Fairies second and then the magic dimension/magic after that.

If possible could you explain the rest a bit better please? And kk I'll try n find the myth texts when I get a chance later. Rn I'm out and using my phone.