Existence Erasure

[Conflicting_Messiah]

The Problem

There seems to be a misconception about Destruction and Void manipulation. These misunderstandings has cause people to believe that erasing something from existence is Void manipulation. But this is incorrect because Void manipulation is strictly the power over voids, nothingness and non-existence. A potential use for Void manipulation can possibly be to convert objects to nothingness. So Existence erasure should be a sub-power of destruction instead given these examples:

• Both Destruction and Existence erasure can differentiate in variations. I mentioned this before.

• Some characters are given a resistance to existence erasure (and to a lesser extent void manipulation). But it's theoretically impossible for something to have a resistance to void manipulation unless they transcend the concept completely or typically inhabit it. But it's possible to resist typical destruction by simply being stronger than the character destroying. Or having an already existing resistance to the ability responsible for the damage (Ex. A character with a resistance to concept manipulation will obviously resist destruction on a conceptual level).

• Void manipulation itself is just an application of destruction. So I'm not sure how anyone came to the conclusion that every character that can erase something from existence has a subset ability/power of void manipulation.

My Suggestions
Personally, I believe that most characters that have their existence erasure directed to the void manipulation page should have it changed to destruction. Unless these character legitimately shown void manipulation (Ex. Chaos King).

While the destruction page should be updated with Existence erasure and all of its variations.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Seems legit as it is confusing.

 

[The_Everlasting]

"But this is incorrect because Void manipulation is strictly the power over voids, nothingness and non-existence."

Yes, and erasing things from existence is power over nothingness.

Fiction often makes a difference between just destroying things and erasing their existence entirely.

 

[Conflicting_Messiah]

Erasing things from existence is power over nothingness.

The power to unmake and destroy anything to total and utter nothingness. Opposing force of Creation.
	~ Destruction​

Also as I stated above, void manipulation can potentially be an application of destruction.

 

[The_Everlasting]

'''''Any''''' destructive power is an "application" of Destruction.

 

[Conflicting_Messiah]

That's my point...

Both Destruction and Existence erasure have many variations so existence erasure shouldn't strictly be considered a sub-power of void manipulation.

 

[The_Everlasting]

Destruction's page is stupid anyway. It's literally just defining destroying things.

Reality Warping is a subpower of Destruction, for example.

 

[Conflicting_Messiah]

Destruction's page is stupid anyway. It's literally just defining destroying things.

This section of your post is subjective. And the revisions to the page should take precedence over your opinion.

Reality Warping is a subpower of Destruction, for example.

Actually it's reverse given it's impossible for setient beings to be able to annihilate objects in real life.

Also was that analogy suppose to strenghten your arguement?

 

[Antvasima]

I will highlight this thread for further input.

 

[DarkLK]

Destruction looks like an absolutely unnecessary page.

Was it created just for the Hakaishins?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Nah. This was created wayyy before I added Beerus' picture as an example.

 

[Joseph619]

Destruction page looks very redundant

 

[Kaltias]

I agree that the Destruction page looks useless. One could simply link to the type of destruction instead.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, quite a lot of profiles currently link to the Destruction page. Somebody would have to remove the links if the page is deleted: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Special:WhatLinksHere/Destruction?limit=500

 

[Kaltias]

Just remove them or substitute them with an appropriate link given the powers of the character?

 

[Antvasima]

A substitution would be preferable, but let's wait until the removal of the Destruction page has been decided.

 

[Sera_EX]

Well, should we decide to remove the Destruction page, I'm willing to fix/provide substitute to the pages in question.

 

[Antvasima]

I do not personally mind if we get rid of it.

 

[Conflicting_Messiah]

Even I can somewhat agree that the current page for destruction is lacking in information and explanations. But we shouldn't deteriorate this thread for such trivial matters. Regardless, if the destruction page gets deleted. I'll suggest that Existence Erasure gets its own independent page like Time Stop and Durability Negation.

 

[Kevyn_S._de_Andrade]

I agree with all of this.

 

[PridedWaif]

I agree here there is no reason for a destrcution page. Unless you're going to have Existence Erasure to where you erased completely from reality period.

 

[Antvasima]

Perhaps somebody could rework the "Destruction" page content into an "Existence Erasure" page instead? Would you be willing to handle it Sera?

 

[Sera_EX]

Certainly.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you very much for the help. Please remember to update the pages thst link to the old Destruction page afterwards.

 

[DontTalk]

A question to the current formulation on the existence erasure page:

What it says is "Users with this power can erase something from existence, whereas it no longer exists in any form."

This would go beyond what the definition of existence erasure per the void manipulation page is, which starts at turning just the matter of the target into nothing.


Both should probably state the same thing due to consistency.


Another question is if we can simply link all pages that had Destruction to the existence erasure page. Does every destruction user fulfill the existence erasure requirement?

 

[Kaltias]

Idk if Melissa does. She has the "ability to destroy matter itself". Does it count as existence erasure or its just a very high level matter manipulation?

 

[Antvasima]

I do not think that all of the profiles should link to existence erasure, no. Part of them should likely just have the destruction ability removed.

 

[DontTalk]

@Kaltias: If she makes the matter disappear and doesn't just break it into smaller parts or turn it into energy, it would qualify according the the definition of the void manipulation page.


According to the current definition of the existence erasure page I am not sure. I mean if used on a rock, I would think its existence was erased, given that nothing is left.

If used on an energy being or a being with a soul, the energy and soul are left and hence they would not have been erased from existence.

So it somehow depends on the target...

 

[Sera_EX]

Done.

@DontTalk

I just went with instinct on defining Existence Erasure. I wanted to quickly update the pages in question as quickly as possible, I'm quite busy but someone has to do it right?

If you wish, you can change/alter the definition. Then again if there's already a definition of existence erasure on the Void Manipulation page + many pages simply linked existence erasure as Void Manipulation anyway (like this: Existence Erasure)...why did I just change tens of pages for no reason?

 

[Antvasima]

Sorry about that Sera.

So should we only have existence erasure as a sub-power for void manipulation instead now?

Also, I can unlock the page for you if you wish to modify it DontTalk.

 

[Conflicting_Messiah]

I disagree with existence erasure being a sub-power for void manipulation only.

It would invalidate the entire purpose of this thread. As I created this to erase the notion that existence erasure is strictly a lesser version of void manipulation. Because abilities like causality, concept and plot manipulation are also capable of erasing targets.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Never mind then.

 

[DontTalk]

@Conflicting Messiah: That doesn't mean it isn't a subpower, though. I mean you can also use causality manipulation to create fire, non the less fire creation is a subpower of fire manipulation and doesn't deserve a seperate page.

Causality, concept and plot manipulation can, just like reality warping, at a high enough degree emulate literally every other ability and sub-ability (including each other), so after your reasoning such a thing as sub-powers shouldn't even exist.


@Antvasima: I don't really mind an extra page for existence erasure, though, as Sera said, in the end many of the powers for that currently link to void manipulation to refer to the particular subpower of existence erasure.

If you unlock the page I can simply change the definition of existence erasure to match what is on the void manipulation page and there should be no problems.

I saw that you asked Reppuzan regarding this thread, so maybe we just wait what he says before we do something.

 

[Reppuzan]

So to get this straight, the OP has proposed that Existence Erasure be moved to a separate page (replacing Destruction), correct? I suppose this makes sense, since not every character uses the void to achieve this.

I'd imagine that a proper description would be something along the lines of:

Existence Erasure is the ability to erase a target from existence completely, destroying any physical and in some cases metaphysical traces of their existence.

I won't be able to provide input this weekend starting Friday morning here (which would be early evening for our American users) all the way through Monday evening since I'll be heading on a trip. I'll keep tabs on this thread though and will pitch in again as soon as I can.

 

[Conflicting_Messiah]

That doesn't mean it isn't a subpower, though. I mean you can also use causality manipulation to create fire, non the less fire creation is a subpower of fire manipulation and doesn't deserve a seperate page.

As I mentioned above, existence erasure ca be a sub-power of void manipulation. But that shouldn't change the fact that existence erasure itself is the ability to destroy/erase one's existence.

For example: If a character has Plot Manipulation, they can possibly remove someone from the story. But if there's no implication that the character used voids, nothingness or non-existence to erase the target.

Would you consider that just a lesser version of this?

Causality, concept and plot manipulation can, just like reality warping, at a high enough degree emulate literally every other ability and sub-ability (including each other), so after your reasoning such a thing as sub-powers shouldn't even exist.

I never stated or implied that sub-powers didn't exist. But regardless I do agree with this section of your post.

 

[Sera_EX]

Apparently some staff are actually against the removal of Destruction and Existence Erasure should remain an application of Void Manipulation. *sighs*

Because the if Existence Erasure gets a separate page Destruction should've stayed for similar reasons (i.e. Solaris destroying timelines isn't just Time Manipulation).

Nevertheless, I agree with DontTalk.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Let's wait for Reppuzan. I am extremely overworked today, so it is hard for me to straighten out this issue.

 

[A_fan_of_a_fan]

everything seems solid to me.

i just can't choose who to agree with in this debate between DT and messiah.

mainly because i don't think i have full understanding of their argument.

i'll read this thread again before giving input.

so from my understanding messiah is saying that existence erasure isn't strictly as void manipulation subset, which he is right about. and DT is trying to say otherwise ?

if so then i think messiah is the one in the right here.

changes which are intended by this thread seems so far seem solid imo.

 

[VenomElite]

No no no no. Hold on...

Plot Manipulation? Causality Manipulation? Concept Manipulation? None of those achieve Existence Erasure.

If you, erased someone from the plot that's exactly what you did. Erased someone from the plot.

Causality Manipulation? Well, as with going back in time and stopping mommy and daddy from getting together thus erasing the existence of their child is not existence erasure, so would be preventing the cause so the effect never happened.

Concept Manipulation does not grant existence erasure. That's called Conceptual Erasure (there's a difference).

Would that be the case, Existence Erasure with that broad definition is an application of almost every power that could be consideted "hax" (space, time, causality manipulation etc. Even darkness manipulation). Either we keep Existence Erasure with a strict definition or we replace it with Destruction because what is being proposed for Existence Erasure is exactly why Destruction had a page to begin with.

 

[Sera_EX]

Ven has a point. So existence erasure should just be described in relation to the power it is applied from? For example Can create a time paradox that effectively erases a target from history. Something along those lines.