• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

Everything you know about Tier 0 is wrong

Status
Not open for further replies.
Let's start with the truest thing that can be said about Tier 0: The fact that you cannot describe it unless you are of Tier 0 yourself.

"The Dao that can be told is not the eternal Dao" - Laozi

And it makes sense because Tier 0 implies nonduality which cannot ever be grasped by a dual mind. That's like saying Mario can trace a 3D motion in a game where he can only trace 2D motions. The conclusion is in the premise, the proof's in the pudding. You can't do something if you can't do it, and so it becomes tautologically true that you can't do it by definition. You can't grasp an Absolute with a non-absolute mind. But what inferences can we make about a Tier 0 Being?

So first let's assume they exist. Conceptually, fictionally, metaphysically, even if it's just for the sake of argument. One sure thing is that they at least exist, similar to the epistemological truth: "I think, therefore I am" - "We assume, therefore they are". I say this because a Tier 0 Being could be crazy enough so as to make itself exist and not exist at the same time, but I think that's the only feat they can't truly pull which is mirrored by the quote that you MUST be if you THINK. That was the quote's purpose, not to allude to solipsism or to clear physicalist bias. Although these are 2 very good other uses. I digress. Ok, so we have 2 things laid out: 1) They exist; 2) They most likely can not not exist. But after saying this... things cease to be as clear-cut and you enter complete chaos. What sort of chaos? The kind of chaos that completely negates and simultaneously affirms everything: This is where the law of noncontradiction breaks.

A Tier 0 being can freely toy with contradictions. They can make square circles, they can make it so a thing exists and doesn't exist at the same time, and I'd say such existence EATS square circles for breakfast. I'd also say this is what truly differentiates a high 1-A being from a Tier 0 Being: The ability to toy with contradictions. That's the trademark of a truly Absolute being or Absolute-Level Hax because contradictions are the most taboo things there can be for the dual mind. High 1-A is dual, maximally strong, but not Absolute. And you might say: "I know this character that can toy with contradictions and they are not Tier 0". That just means the character has Tier 0 Level Hax, but they themselves are not Tier 0. CHIM from TES and Mystic Eyes of Death Perception from Nasuverse are good examples of that.

So what else can we say about Tier 0? This is where it gets really fun: What can be said with Certainty is that there's only 1 Tier 0 Being. That's right, just 1. Not 2, not 3, 4, etc. Why is that? Because it doesn't make any sense to say otherwise. If you assume that there can be 2 Absolute beings then that means neither is Absolute, because one ends when the other begins. You can't ever say that there can be more than 2 Tier 0 Beings, let alone question what would happen if they would fight (they'd stalemate). You can say that a Tier 0 Being can split into 2 or an infinite number of maximally strong High 1-A beings (and even then it exists above them), but never multiple Tier 0 Beings. And that "split" is precisely what the creation of a Tier 0 Being is: A Dream where they play as if they are not of Tier 0. Because according to my calculations being Tier 0 is the most boring thing there can possibly be, by definition.

A Tier 0 Being cannot truly know what it means to be Tier 0 until they experience not being of Tier 0. An Absolute Being has everything, except the ability to not have. So that's why Tier 0 goes to bed and dreams a lot, they do as such because they need to gain context of themselves. They need to experience "The Dream", otherwise known as "Samsara" in Buddhism and Jainism in order to appreciate the opposite. "The Dream" is different from the Absolute in the sense that it is finite. In the endpoint of Absolute, things can exist and not exist at the same time, but in the finite, some things end only for others to begin. And that is what allows for things to be exciting, something they want. It makes sense, when you play a game you want it to be hard. But despite it being riddled with predicaments, even that existence is perfect because it's just a rearrangement of The Tier 0 Being. Pain just makes a fun existence in which you can appreciate not pain be possible. So that's why you should accept life as it is, everything has a purpose.

Ahem.. That's why "The Dream" is a reoccurring theme in fiction: Tier 0 never really becomes separate from their creation, the creation is them expressed differently. And that's why everything in the Omniverse is God. Even a wall-level dude is a nerfed Tier 0 Being <--- quote that. Just like in a dream where the characters present are not different people from you, they are still you. You are not this finite, insignificant being that's separate from everything else. Any character at any given time is the Game Master, the player, and the game all at the same time. Everything is God. A Boundless a priori entails that by definition.

But let's dial back a bit... if The Tier 0 Being is Absolute and can only be 1, then that implies they are Omniversal+, and that also implies they are meta-permeant. So by definition, every single universe or creation, fictional or not, is traceable back to the same Tier 0 Being. So every "tier 0 being" we know of isn't actually Tier 0, but they might be the closest that can be referred to as tier 0 by characters from a universe or if we're gonna be more meta, by a writer which functions in duality by definition, unable to touch The Tier 0 Being with their pen. Writers are like High 1-A beings, but never Tier 0. This is sort of like the ontological argument. So Azathot, Maria, The Godhead from TES, The Root from Nasuverse, are the same being, and so is every other being. The lore through meta might tell different, but meta constructs do not constitute boundaries to The Boundless Being.

Another interesting thing to note is that if we assume all this, The Tier 0 Being is both infinitely good and infinitely evil... but the good news is it cannot ever do anything bad to another thing other than itself. So morality is objective and yet subjective because on a fundamental level there is no difference between the 2, there is just [ ]. But the other good news is, there is a differentiation between good and bad, it just needs to be defined in any given universe/creation.

Honestly, The Tier 0 Being is the best waifu in existence. When everything goes back to them, I want to be the only one that doesn't melt back into Tier 0. I want to achieve a sort of CHIM and keep them company forever so they don't have to make Omniverses filled with suffering, and these Omniverses wouldn't even be needed anymore.

So that's pretty much all I have to say. I'd give some amazing links to sources about stuff that I talked about but... I don't want it to look like I'm shilling people. One person I'll shill is Carl Jung, get into his books if you like this sort of stuff.

So if I'd have to sum up reality in one word this is the word I'd use:
 
Last edited:
I..uh are you serious about this because what you basically just wrote is relavant to how tier 0 was treated in this wiki like more than 2 years back when they were assumed to be questionable omnipotent,only 1 in a verse,doesn't rely on AP but rather on lack of weakness etc...
 
I..uh are you serious about this because what you basically just wrote is relavant to how tier 0 was treated in this wiki like more than 2 years back when they were assumed to be questionable omnipotent,only 1 in a verse,doesn't rely on AP but rather on lack of weakness etc...
Yeah, I'm not saying there were no competent points made about Tier 0, but the overarching point I made is that there's more to say about this tier. It's not something you can just sum up because this is technically a whole philosophical issue, but at the same time, it's something only the lack of words can truly make justice. One of the things I added is that Tier 0 is only one per Omniverse (every universe, including ours, fictional or not), not even Universe. There's only 1 Tier 0, no more can exist.
 
Tier 0 is just a term used to describe the Absolute endpoint of power or 'potence'. It's not about the numbers, it's about the meaning behind terms. I can substitute the term "Tier 0" with "Absolute" or "Dao" and we get the same thing. There's no meaningful difference between Tier 0 and Tier -1 because Tier 0 is already used to refer to an axiom you deem "Absolute".
 
I legitamately can't tell if this is a joke thread or a serious one, or I simply can't understand cause I dumb
This is 100% serious
What... You sound as if Tier 0 is connected omnipotent when it really it isn't


That's a big no
I didn't say Tier 0 is merely omnipotence. There are different gradations of omnipotence but Boundlessness is the endpoint of omnipotence. So even though there is a differentiation in gradation pertaining to the concept of "omnipotent", Tier 0 is still omnipotence, it's just the endpoint of it.

Kind of like how a banana is not an apple but it's still a fruit. And this is one of my tame analogies.

Also, yes, it is the case that there's only 1 Tier 0 per Omniverse. It can't be any other way. Sure, different pieces of fiction convey different Tier 0s but Tier 0 is Absolute and therefore by definition meta-permeant. So it doesn't matter what a writer who isn't even Tier 0 says about Tier 0. A writer is an absolute authority pertaining to their series so they are akin to a high 1-A being, but The Tier 0 is even above that EVEN with respect to their own works.

So to sum it up, if Tier 0 is boundless and there can be only 1, then there is only 1 per Omniverse. This syllogism checks out.
 
Tier 0 is not omnipotence.

Tier 0 is really just a high tier that ANY character can reach provided they reach the requirements. We don't use omnipotence on this wiki. Please read the guidelines on it.

We also don't use terminologies such as omniverse generally.

A lot of this feels like headcanon
 
Tier 0 is not omnipotence.

Tier 0 is really just a high tier that ANY character can reach provided they reach the requirements. We don't use omnipotence on this wiki. Please read the guidelines on it.

We also don't use terminologies such as omniverse generally.

A lot of this feels like headcanon
I didn't say Tier 0 is omnipotence, that's a strawman. I said that Tier 0 is ALSO omnipotence. This makes sense from every point of view: 1 - Tier 0 is Absolute, Absolute is the endpoint of Omnipotence as a property; 2 - Tier 0 is everything at the same time. Every concept, all superposed, including being able to be weak or omnipotent if it so chooses.

Yeah, any character can reach Tier 0 because... every single character is an entailment of The Tier 0 being. Because every character, everything, exists within the boundaries of what is dreamt by The Tier 0 Being. You are technically correct there, but not in the way that you think you are.

Hm, omnipotent is just a word tho, it can be used when it's pertinent, same with omniverse. "We don't use" seems dogmatic.

"Headcanon". What do you mean by headcanon? I'm not talking about a specific series, I'm making inferences about a philosophical topic that's not inherently about fiction. It just so happens that the subject of that topic (Tier 0) is meta-permeant because it's Absolute and therefore there's only 1 per Omniverse. It's true that I'm now making a statement about every single fictional universe and the fact that they share the same being, but it's backed up by my inference. Rebut the inference first and then my argument crumbles by itself, but you haven't done that yet so...
 
Last edited:
I said that Tier 0 is ALSO omnipotence
Except it isn't at all. The wiki doesn't omnipotence at all.

Because every character, everything, exists within the boundaries of what is dreamt by The Tier 0 Being.
And where exactly are you getting this from? Because that is not true at all.

Hm, omnipotent is just a word tho, it can be used when it's pertinent, same with omniverse. "We don't use" seems dogmatic.
Except we literally do not use it as it is impossible to quantify and omnipotence is something that is unable to be proven, not even scientists or philosophers can prove omnipotence.

It just so happens that the subject of that topic (Tier 0) is meta-permeant because it's Absolute and therefore there's only 1 per Omniverse. It's true that I'm now making a statement about every single fictional universe and the fact that they share the same being, but it's backed up by my inference.
What does that even mean? Being an absolute of a verse does not make you tier 0. The One Above All isn't tier 0 just because he is the supreme being of the marvel multiverse.

inference
Would you mind sending me sources and scans?

It's true that I'm now making a statement about every single fictional universe and the fact that they share the same being
That is cross scaling

Rebut the inference first and then my argument crumbles by itself, but you haven't done that yet so...
Because your points don't even make sense.
 
Except it isn't at all. The wiki doesn't omnipotence at all.
Um... dude, Tier 0 is everything there is. Tier 0 is by definition also omnipotence, because it's by definition everything there can be and more, because The Tier 0 Being is the only thing there is. Everything 'else' is just an occurrence within The Tier 0 Being, and that occurrence is not separate. Also, notice the connective "also". For the third time, there is a difference in nuance between saying variable X is also something, and variable X is something. The former implies variable X is something but can also be something else, the latter implies variable X might be reduceable to that something.

I'm not saying Tier 0 is reduceable to Omnipotence, what I'm saying is that Tier 0 encompasses Omnipotence.
And where exactly are you getting this from? Because that is not true at all.
It's the conclusion that follows from these premises: 1) The Tier 0 Being is Absolute, and that is true because we take it as a presupposition given the fact that we address the Absolute endpoint of potentiality; 2) You can't have 2 Absolutes. It doesn't make sense, saying that you can have 2 Absolutes means neither is Absolute; 3) Something Absolute is also meta-permeant. It can bypass any fictional meta. No... it does that simply by inferring the previous 2 premises.
Except we literally do not use it as it is impossible to quantify and omnipotence is something that is unable to be proven, not even scientists or philosophers can prove omnipotence.
Idk, it's just a word that you can use when it fits. And about 'proving' omnipotence. Oh boy... this is what I've been waiting for hahaha. You can technically prove omnipotence using empiricism because omnipotence can be dual (high 1-A), but that's not even the main issue here. You don't "prove" omnipotence or Tier 0, you infer its existence based on reasoning. Reason > Empiricism. Empiricism hinges on materialist bias (materialist bias = assuming this physical existence). It's literally the wrong tool for discussing such topics. Instead, you infer such existences with other arguments: The argument from contingency, the ontological argument, the fine-tuning argument. Working from first-order epistemological grounds i.e. "I think, therefore I am".
What does that even mean? Being an absolute of a verse does not make you tier 0. The One Above All isn't tier 0 just because he is the supreme being of the marvel multiverse.
You know what I mean by Absolute already... Of course, you can use "absolute" to refer to anything. Like "this guy is the absolute chess player" or whatever. But what I'm talking about is the endpoint of "Absolute"-> Boundless, Tier 0. Something that goes beyond dualism. Something that can literally never be grasped by the dual mind. Something necessary. So no, just because "absolute" can have different connotations that doesn't mean I'm using them.
Would you mind sending me sources and scans?
I'm more than happy to give you reasoning because that's all I have to support this inference. I've given you the contingency argument above pertaining to "proving" and my argument pertaining to the omniverse.
That is cross scaling
I mean... maybe? I have no problem with it being cross scaling haha. It being cross scaling doesn't damage my argument
Because your points don't even make sense.
That's not an argument.

It's ok to admit you're wrong, your first comment basically says it all. I'm happy to debate you but... do you really have to debate just for the sake of it? In your first comment, you were honest, saying that you don't understand. There's nothing wrong with that! But just admit it.

So these are the 2 main arguments that you have to debunk if you wish to continue:
Debunk my Omniversal argument
Debunk the argument from contingency (optional)
 
Last edited:
Um... dude, Tier 0 is everything there is. Tier 0 is by definition also omnipotence, because it's by definition everything there can be and more, because The Tier 0 Being is the only thing there is. Everything 'else' is just an occurrence within The Tier 0 Being, and that occurrence is not separate. Also, notice the connective "also". For the third time, there is a difference in nuance between saying variable X is also something, and variable X is something. The former implies variable X is something but can also be something else, the latter implies variable X might be reduceable to that something.
No, it isn't. It's merely being above a High 1-A the way they're above a 1-A and it's described by pretty explicit mathematics. This definition you're using hasn't been in use here for over 2 years.
I'm not saying Tier 0 is reduceable to Omnipotence, what I'm saying is that Tier 0 encompasses Omnipotence.

It's the conclusion that follows from these premises: 1) The Tier 0 Being is Absolute, and that is true because we take it as a presupposition given the fact that we address the Absolute endpoint of potentiality; 2) You can't have 2 Absolutes. It doesn't make sense, saying that you can have 2 Absolutes means neither is Absolute; 3) Something Absolute is also meta-permeant. It can bypass any fictional meta. No... it does that simply by inferring the previous 2 premises.

Idk, it's just a word that you can use when it fits. And about 'proving' omnipotence. Oh boy... this is what I've been waiting for hahaha. You can technically prove omnipotence using empiricism because omnipotence can be dual (high 1-A), but that's not even the main issue here. You don't "prove" omnipotence or Tier 0, you infer its existence based on reasoning. Reason > Empiricism. Empiricism hinges on materialist bias (materialist bias = assuming this physical existence). It's literally the wrong tool for discussing such topics. Instead, you infer such existences with other arguments: The argument from contingency, the ontological argument, the fine-tuning argument. Working from first-order epistemological grounds i.e. "I think, therefore I am".
Again, not how we treat Tier 0.
You know what I mean by Absolute already... Of course, you can use "absolute" to refer to anything. Like "this guy is the absolute chess player" or whatever. But what I'm talking about is the endpoint of "Absolute"-> Boundless, Tier 0. Something that goes beyond dualism. Something that can literally never be grasped by the dual mind. Something necessary. So no, just because "absolute" can have different connotations that doesn't mean I'm using them.

I'm more than happy to give you reasoning because that's all I have to support this inference. I've given you the contingency argument above pertaining to "proving" and my argument pertaining to the omniverse.

I mean... maybe? I have no problem with it being cross scaling haha. It being cross scaling doesn't damage my argument

That's not an argument.

It's ok to admit you're wrong, your first comment basically says it all. I'm happy to debate you but... do you really have to debate just for the sake of it? In your first comment, you were honest, saying that you don't understand. There's nothing wrong with that! But just admit it.
Once again, Tier 0 is a defined level of power that any character can reach. There's a verse here with infinite Tier 0s that are encompassed by a higher Tier 0.

Seriously, there's no point to a thread like this that addresses a standard not used here.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top