Etrigan upgrade.

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

A very quick upgrade, but it makes no sense for Etrigan to be just 5-A, he should easily be 4-B, especially since he barely holds back unlike the likes of Superman.
Feats that would make him this strong are:

• Superman Vol 2 #55 | May, 1991
  • Fights mind-controlled Superman - so no holding back here
• The Demon Vol 3 #13 July, 1991
  • Draws Lobo
• The Demon Vol 3 #17 | November 1991
  • As his literal profile notes, easily subdued a demon who nearly killed WW, WW is 4-B at peak and nearly killing her obviously scales to this.
  • Literally laughs Wonder Woman's attack off
• Action Comics Vol 1 #762 | February, 2000
  • Yeets Superman to the moon, and while Clark does hold back, literally sending him this far is something few can do
  • Draws blood from Superman, note that Superman only holds back durability when he specifically wants to test his opponents, not the case here
• Blood of the Demon Vol 1 #5 | September, 2005
  • Casually smacks Diana away
    
    

 

[Confluctor]

Yeets Superman to the moon, and while Clark does hold back, literally sending him this far is something few can do

we already discussed this feat a lot in the other giganta thread. Just because he punched him that far doesn't mean anything. On its own, its like a tier 6 feat or something.

 

[MarvelFanatic119]

Also you might not want to scale to Lobo here. Not only is he a bit too inconsistent to scale to reliably, at peak he is currently rated at 5-A.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

I'm largey neutral on this, but not against the idea. Wondy is pretty inconsistent on her higher showings (Getting mogged by Supes and Power Girl, but has defeated Doomsday by herself at least once, but generally I'm okay with her being a lower end 4-B), and Superman has statements that he holds back even when mind-controlled. But ultimately I think "5-A, possibly 4-B at peak" is fine.

Lobo is actually pretty consistently in the 5-A range. I was thinking of getting that note removed.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Also you might not want to scale to Lobo here. Not only is he a bit too inconsistent to scale to reliably, at peak he is currently rated at 5-A.

Lobo may be inconsistent, but his peak definitely shouldn't be 5-A. His peak is actually beating Superman to the point of leaving the latter bloodied and bruised.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

Welcome to the weird world of Superman power scaling. There are plenty of examples of Superman being "beaten and bloody" only for him to stop holding back and cream the opponent. I generally don't want to scale many dude to Superman's peak unless it's very consistent lke Doomsday or something.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Welcome to the weird world of Superman power scaling. There are plenty of examples of Superman being "beaten and bloody" only for him to stop holding back and cream the opponent. I generally don't want to scale many dude to Superman's peak unless it's very consistent lke Doomsday or something.

And Lobo can also very consistently annihiliate GL constructs, could have snapped Aquaman's neck, dealt heavy damage to Shazam, fights Martian Manhunter, Hal Jordan actually believed the only way to beat Lobo is to yeet him into a different solar system. Superman isn't the only high tier herald around, y'know. 4-B doesn't even come from him anyway

 

[Confluctor]

All 5-A...

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

All 5-A...

All 4-B at their peak. And Hal was literally scared shitless by Lobo

 

[Confluctor]

And so has other characters. Lobo scaling is no go.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

And so has other characters. Lobo scaling is no go.

Alright. Now what would make Lobo not scale to 4-B? The fact that Superman, one of the most powerful heralds around, defeated him a few times?

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Lobo is inconsistent because its explained that we see other universe variations of him. The main Lobo is who Etrigan fought, and he's usually on the level of a serious Shazam

I'm largey neutral on this, but not against the idea. Wondy is pretty inconsistent on her higher showings (Getting mogged by Supes and Power Girl, but has defeated Doomsday by herself at least once, but generally I'm okay with her being a lower end 4-B), and Superman has statements that he holds back even when mind-controlled. But ultimately I think "5-A, possibly 4-B at peak" is fine.

Lobo is actually pretty consistently in the 5-A range. I was thinking of getting that note removed.

Scans of 5-A at best?

And so has other characters. Lobo scaling is no go.

Name them all

 

[Confluctor]

Alright. Now what would make Lobo not scale to 4-B? The fact that Superman, one of the most powerful heralds around, defeated him a few times?

Question, do you know how many people have beaten Superman? The so called most powerful of DC heralds?

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

No offense, but you just took the biggest bois of DC, gave them that fancy "4-B at peak" and assumed everyone who doesn't have more than 1000 issues is automatically fodder. A good part of these "4-B at peak" people don't generally hold back either, and are just given this rating to not be inconsistent with the Blue Boyscout himself

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Question, do you know how many people have beaten Superman? The so called most powerful of DC heralds?

Pretty much any of those examples is brushed off as him holding back or whatever.
But regardless, Lobo is one of the people who did lmao

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Question, do you know how many people have beaten Superman? The so called most powerful of DC heralds?

Who is more powerful than them

 

[PairusDragonoid]

VSB has a serious problem with their feats, they must necessarily have a source of:

• comic/manga number/chapter/s
• exact page/s
• in which issue/event such an event occurred
• the authors of said story
• the year in which it was written
• exact minute, version if is a video/game/etc
• if it doesn't have to be any convenient crop/cut to make the feat prettier and not hide things (i.e. show the whole page/full scene and highlight with a marker/color what is important or enclose it in a circle/box)
• and so many more...

 

[XXKINGXX69]

VSB has a serious problem with their feats, they must necessarily have a source of:

• comic/manga number/chapter/s
• exact page/s
• in which issue/event such an event occurred
• the authors of said story
• the year in which it was written
• exact minute, version if is a video/game/etc
• if it doesn't have to be any convenient crop/cut to make the feat prettier and not hide things (i.e. show the whole page/full scene and highlight with a marker/color what is important or enclose it in a circle/box)
• and so many more...

????

 

[PairusDragonoid]

????

Lot at the feats, no source, no comic name/page/issue, no context, clear crop/cut panels and not the whole page to see if something is wrong/cut context/before or after say something relevant, etc.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Lot at the feats, no source, no comic name/page/issue, no context, clear crop/cut panels and not the whole page to see if something is wrong/cut context/before or after say something relevant, etc.

Talk about that in another CRT

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Well, I always felt like the "Superman always holds back" aspect was often exaggerated at least for Post-Crisis Superman and especially if the best examples actually come from either Pre-Crisis or Animated Superman when Post-Crisis version actually has a lot of examples of Superman literally going all out and still managing to get overpowered. I do agree that there are a lot of short lived characters who shouldn't be scaled from fully serious Superman and that people like Lex Luthor and or Metallo should not be scaled from him. But Despero for example has "Being stronger than the combined might of Superman, Wonder Woman, and Martian Manhunter" being one of his most consistent statements that are shown in the comics. I know other Kryptonians especially should also be within the same leagues as Superman by nature such as General Zod who also don't hold back against foes to the extent as Superman.

In Lobo's case, his power is always fluctuating due to some lore that always changes his power levels. He's barely Batman level one day but strong enough to single handedly body the Justice League Metahumans the next and is usually somewhere in between that. I also recall seeing a Comic page on some old Screwattack blog that depicted Lobo literally decapitating both of Superman's arms simultaneously just by pulling them off. Plus, he is where the stellar lifting strength feat comes from.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Well, I always felt like the "Superman always holds back" aspect was often exaggerated at least for Post-Crisis Superman and especially if the best examples actually come from either Pre-Crisis or Animated Superman when Post-Crisis version actually has a lot of examples of Superman literally going all out and still managing to get overpowered. I do agree that there are a lot of short lived characters who shouldn't be scaled from fully serious Superman and that people like Lex Luthor and or Metallo should not be scaled from him. But Despero for example has "Being stronger than the combined might of Superman, Wonder Woman, and Martian Manhunter" being one of his most consistent statements that are shown in the comics. I know other Kryptonians especially should also be within the same leagues as Superman by nature such as General Zod who also don't hold back against foes to the extent as Superman.

In Lobo's case, his power is always fluctuating due to some lore that always changes his power levels. He's barely Batman level one day but strong enough to single handedly body the Justice League Metahumans the next and is usually somewhere in between that. I also recall seeing a Comic page on some old Screwattack blog that depicted Lobo literally decapitating both of Superman's arms simultaneously just by pulling them off. Plus, he is where the stellar lifting strength feat comes from.

Yeah, I 100% agree with this. And I'm pretty sure Superman's mental blocks that prevent him from going all out were removed during the Mongul training - very early into post crisis

 

[Ocean7447]

As his literal profile notes, easily subdued a demon who nearly killed WW,

This always seemed off. The demon suckered WW before shredding her with its claws (peircing weakness). It wasn't actually overpowering her.

Spoiler

Simple spoiler

Wonder Woman shouldn't even be 4-B, but that's a topic for another CRT.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

This always seemed off. The demon suckered WW before shredding her with its claws (peircing weakness). It wasn't actually overpowering her.

Spoiler

Simple spoiler

Wonder Woman shouldn't even be 4-B, but that's a topic for another CRT.

I mean, Etrigan still casually overpowered her.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Well, I always felt like the "Superman always holds back" aspect was often exaggerated at least for Post-Crisis Superman and especially if the best examples actually come from either Pre-Crisis or Animated Superman when Post-Crisis version actually has a lot of examples of Superman literally going all out and still managing to get overpowered. I do agree that there are a lot of short lived characters who shouldn't be scaled from fully serious Superman and that people like Lex Luthor and or Metallo should not be scaled from him. But Despero for example has "Being stronger than the combined might of Superman, Wonder Woman, and Martian Manhunter" being one of his most consistent statements that are shown in the comics. I know other Kryptonians especially should also be within the same leagues as Superman by nature such as General Zod who also don't hold back against foes to the extent as Superman.

In Lobo's case, his power is always fluctuating due to some lore that always changes his power levels. He's barely Batman level one day but strong enough to single handedly body the Justice League Metahumans the next and is usually somewhere in between that. I also recall seeing a Comic page on some old Screwattack blog that depicted Lobo literally decapitating both of Superman's arms simultaneously just by pulling them off. Plus, he is where the stellar lifting strength feat comes from.

His power fluctuates because of the Lobo imposters, Etrigan fought the main Lobo

 

[MarvelFanatic119]

Well right now we should focus on Etrigan, not Lobo. Since the former is the topic of discussion.

We can work on Lobo in another thread.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Yeah Etrigan fought mind controlled Superman. Superman performed the 4-B feats while holding back anyways, and Wonder Woman cannot defeat Etrigan (until later on when she was strong enough to tank his hellfire). And Etrigan is equal to Blue Devil, who's equal to Blue Beetle IIRC

 

[Antvasima]

@C2_of_Omegon @Eficiente @Qawsedf234 @Sandman31 @SuperAPM @Firestorm808 @EmperorRorepme @LuciferDC099 @Ehnkr2beboh @Deagonx @Elizio33 @LordTracer @Planck69 @Confluctor @MarvelFanatic119 @catzlaflame @Armorchompy @Kulf_Boba @LephyrTheRevanchist

What do you think should be done here?

 

[Planck69]

I'm not knowledgeable enough on the character to make any conclusion on the matter unfortunately.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

I suggest someone revise Lobo first, before we continue on Etrigan

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

I suggest someone revise Lobo first, before we continue on Etrigan

Might be a good idea. Lobo is a very prominent character and Etrigan very blatantly scales to him.
Maybe we should rethink who we give 4-B to in general. Cause we just said that "well Clark is strong duh", took like 15 characters, gave them 4-B and just bunked everyone down to 5-A without much analysis

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Yeah, we decided to arbitrarily say 5-A is their limit

 

[Qawsedf234]

What do you think should be done here?

Hurting Superman as a magic man doesn't mean he's 4-B and half of the Wonder Woman scans don't scale him to 4-B either when looked at in context.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Hurting Superman as a magic man doesn't mean he's 4-B and half of the Wonder Woman scans don't scale him to 4-B either when looked at in context.

Can you elaborate why the context of the WW scans makes them unusable?

 

[Qawsedf234]

Can you elaborate why the context of the WW scans makes them unusable?

• The demon that overpowered WW did so through a sneak attack and used sharp claws on a character with a notorious weakness to sharp stuff (as in so bad it's taken he close to 70 years to actually gain a definitive is bulletproof feat in canon)
• Etrigan hitting Diana once that does nothing else isn't a 4-B scaling reason
• Him "laughing" at her attack doesn't mean he took no damage, it just means that Etrigan enjoys being punched hard as the narration itself points out

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Hurting Superman as a magic man doesn't mean he's 4-B and half of the Wonder Woman scans don't scale him to 4-B either when looked at in context.

This is my main problem as well. All of these scans are a barely a page or two almost devoid of any context and expect to scale it just from that.

Like, I don't doubt Etrigan could have solid scaling to high tiers at all, but these ain't the feats that properly show that.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Hurting Superman as a magic man doesn't mean he's 4-B and half of the Wonder Woman scans don't scale him to 4-B either when looked at in context.

His punches aren't magic unless you can prove that. His hellfire is though, and Superman is physically unharmed by his Hellfire early on (only spiritually and magically affected). So his magic not enough to negate his durability all that much

 

[XXKINGXX69]

So is anyone gonna provide the so called "inconsistencies" of Lobo?

 

[Qawsedf234]

His punches aren't magic unless you can prove that.

He's a magical being. Everything about him is magic.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

• The demon that overpowered WW did so through a sneak attack and used sharp claws on a character with a notorious weakness to sharp stuff (as in so bad it's taken he close to 70 years to actually gain a definitive is bulletproof feat in canon)
• Etrigan hitting Diana once that does nothing else isn't a 4-B scaling reason
• Him "laughing" at her attack doesn't mean he took no damage, it just means that Etrigan enjoys being punched hard as the narration itself points out

He also overpowers her completely immediately after doing so