Esper Power ability page for To Aru

[DontTalkDT]

Yeah guys, I'm really doing this one first. Just some nice minor start.
Some time ago I posted a draft for a verse specific esper power ability page, for explaining how they work to regular users as well as summarizing the minor abilities it grants on profiles.
Do you guys think that page is complete? Does it need changes? Would you say it is ok to add it to all profiles of espers?

Also, do you think a similar page would make sense for magicians? IIRC @LazyHunter was working on a blog in that direction, so maybe that could be used as a basis.

 

[Aminadab_Brulle]

2.3 million is a total population of AC, not total esper population.

 

[DontTalkDT]

That's kinda inconsistent, I think.
Volume 1 states

2.3 million students lived in Academy City. And every single one of them had undergone the powers development Curriculum.

Which would indeed mean 2.3 million espers. (With 60% being Level 0)
Later accounts in the novel have referred to the total population to be 2.3 million and from that 80% being students. That would indeed put the total number of espers at only 1.84 million.
Soooo... I don't know which number should be used. I guess I could list both?

 

[Inori_Hatsune]

Correct me if I wrong, but so far gemstones didnt need calculation to produce its supranatural phenomena.

Also some of their law manipulation are not based from scientific principle like what artficial esper does. For example Himegami Aisha deep blood, Claire plant manipulation, & whatever Gunha abilities is.

 

[Ionliosite]

Eh, this only grants them 3 powers? Wasn't it requiered for Verse-Specific P&A to give multiple abilities to be valid? I know Ogre Physiology and Retcon Powers were deleted for this very reason.

 

[Antvasima]

I trust DontTalkDT's sense of judgement. Has LazyHunter logged in to his account here yet?

 

[XDragnoir]

I think there are three things wouldn't be wrong to add to this page: The first is genius intelligence, pretty basic, but a few esper pages lack that and don't have a detailed Intelligence section, we know esper powers need high level intelligence to be used more times than not, and being a student in Academy City is also enough to me to call someone a genius, since we know things are at an advanced level since the start there; The second is superhuman speed (thought only), even tho they are normal humans, many espers have feats of reacting to things much faster than them, i think everyone starting at LV4 should have HH+ perception/thought speed, idk what speed the lower levels could have, maybe supersonic or just superhuman, this being an obvious result of their calc speed being way above normal humans; The third is limited matter manipulation (at least microscopic/molecular, up(down?) to macro-quantum), i think there is no need to explain anything here, right?

Also, about the magic-side page, there aren't many things that are common for all types of magic, the only thing i remember that would be important to be noted somewhere is the distortion of causality, it would be a good place to put the resistances the high-level magicians have, tho.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Correct me if I wrong, but so far gemstones didnt need calculation to produce its supranatural phenomena.

I don't remember that ever being stated. Since Gunha doesn't understand his ability all his calculations will likely be done subconsciously, but that isn't further unusual.

Also some of their law manipulation are not based from scientific principle like what artficial esper does. For example Himegami Aisha deep blood, Claire plant manipulation, & whatever Gunha abilities is.

If you mean that in relation to the "It should be noted that esper abilities are nonetheless viewed as fundamentally scientific, meaning that they likely obey a generalized set of physical laws."part, those things don't contradict each other. Fundamentally, all those abilities do can be within an extension of science in the same way Kakine's Dark Matter could be. The fact that the esper in question doesn't understand it as scientific (or that nobody else understands it on a scientific level) doesn't mean that it isn't scientific.

Eh, this only grants them 3 powers? Wasn't it requiered for Verse-Specific P&A to give multiple abilities to be valid? I know Ogre Physiology and Retcon Powers were deleted for this very reason.

3 powers, a resistance and a weakness, technically. I haven't participated in the thread about the deleted powers. However, I would think level of explanation is also a factor. If I pretty much just listed the powers without further comment on them, then I could see the page not being accepted for that reason.

However, in this case it's the explanation that is really important and the reason I want to have this page. If all espers having barely explained Law Manipulation, Probability Manipulation and Subjective Reality on their profile just looks bad and is practically an invitation for unknowing readers to misunderstand what they can do with those abilities. Exactly because those things are more technicalities than usually relevant abilities, I feel like those longer explanations should be available.

And not copying a lot of text on each page is the purpose of the verse specific abilities, no?

Has LazyHunter logged in to his account here yet?

Not as far as I know.

The first is genius intelligence, pretty basic, but a few esper pages lack that and don't have a detailed Intelligence section, we know esper powers need high level intelligence to be used more times than not, and being a student in Academy City is also enough to me to call someone a genius, since we know things are at an advanced level since the start there;

I don't know about that. For a start, you have to consider that this page also applies to Level 0 and Level 1 espers. In their case, the level might straight up be so low, because they don't manage to the calculations. That argument really only works for high level espers. Furthermore, even high level espers might perform their calculations entirely subconsciously, like Gunha most likely does, so scaling that to their intelligence, in general, is very questionable.

Not everyone that lives in Academy City is a scientific genius either, despite the technology in their being more advanced. It's kinda like in real life in that regard. Sure, any engineer of today would probably be considered a genius in the thirteen hundreds, but the same doesn't apply to a random citizen. A random citizen that never studied anything in the realms of technology might be able to use technology but has barely any knowledge on advanced topics. Touma himself is a great example for a High School student in Academy City that can really not be considered a genius, despite being familiar with the way of the city of science. If one consideres that there are also little children which, due to their age, didn't get much of Academy City's education yet, this really doesn't work as generalization.

The second is superhuman speed (thought only), even tho they are normal humans, many espers have feats of reacting to things much faster than them, i think everyone starting at LV4 should have HH+ perception/thought speed, idk what speed the lower levels could have, maybe supersonic or just superhuman, this being an obvious result of their calc speed being way above normal humans;

Aside from only applying to high level espers, I also disagree with the entire sentiment in general. Maybe one can say that every high-level esper at least has superhuman calculation speed, which could be entirely subconscious, but scaling perception speed based on an espers level appears to be very unjustified to me.

The third is limited matter manipulation (at least microscopic/molecular, up(down?) to macro-quantum), i think there is no need to explain anything here, right?

That could be ok, I suppose. Then again I wonder if there really aren't abilities that can't be said to deal with manipulation matter at all...

Well, unless someone knows one I will add this.

Also, about the magic-side page, there aren't many things that are common for all types of magic, the only thing i remember that would be important to be noted somewhere is the distortion of causality, it would be a good place to put the resistances the high-level magicians have, tho.

Aside from explaining the mechanics, one could migrate the stuff in the "Common Abilities"-Tab on the verse page to such a page.

 

[Antvasima]

It seems like somebody should inform LazyHunter about one of our instruction pages for how to sign up for this website via his message wall then.

 

[Aminadab_Brulle]

About intelligence - AC folks are in general smarter than random Joe (even elementary schoolers), but that definitely doesn't amount to being geniuses. At best you can put "above average intelligence" in the esper page.

 

[XDragnoir]

I don't know about that. For a start, you have to consider that this page also applies to Level 0 and Level 1 espers. In their case, the level might straight up be so low, because they don't manage to the calculations. That argument really only works for high level espers. Furthermore, even high level espers might perform their calculations entirely subconsciously, like Gunha most likely does, so scaling that to their intelligence, in general, is very questionable.

Not everyone that lives in Academy City is a scientific genius either, despite the technology in their being more advanced. It's kinda like in real life in that regard. Sure, any engineer of today would probably be considered a genius in the thirteen hundreds, but the same doesn't apply to a random citizen. A random citizen that never studied anything in the realms of technology might be able to use technology but has barely any knowledge on advanced topics. Touma himself is a great example for a High School student in Academy City that can really not be considered a genius, despite being familiar with the way of the city of science. If one consideres that there are also little children which, due to their age, didn't get much of Academy City's education yet, this really doesn't work as generalization.

This verse-specific page has a division between common powers and high-tier characters only powers, i don't see a problem in splitting the page into "all espers" and "LV4 and above". I never said everyone that lives AC is a genius, i said a student, and since our discussion is about espers, i was talking about esper students, if your problem is adding superhuman/genius/whatever intelligence to ALL espers, we can, again, split into common abilities and abilities to high level characters. Gunha isn't the standard for anything in Toaru, and i want any example of a high level esper that can't use their powers and calc things counciously.

Aside from only applying to high level espers, I also disagree with the entire sentiment in general. Maybe one can say that every high-level esper at least has superhuman calculation speed, which could be entirely subconscious, but scaling perception speed based on an espers level appears to be very unjustified to me.

Again, high level espers obviously aren't restricted to calc at superhuman speeds subcounciously, we may not have as many examples for LV4s as we have for LV5s, but nothing i know and have read says that LV4 (or any level that isn't 0, really) can only do calcs subcounciously, as for that translating into speed, most LV5s already have HH+ perception/thought/reaction speed, this would only add perception to the ones without it (Misaki and Aihana's profile in a distant future), and another interesting thing is that LV5 espers have a calc speed comparable to that of super computers, and super computers (modern days, not even talking about Toaru's) have FTL perception (according to this calc), so LV4s would just downscale, supported by Maidono being able to perceive lightning but being unable to react to them without prep, tho there are a few fights i would need to re-read, but speed in Toaru is always a strange topic since we have people fighting and outcalcing Accel, supersonic-at-most saints and lightspeed Mikoto in the LNs, so it may be Kamachi being bad at speeds, again.

That could be ok, I suppose. Then again I wonder if there really aren't abilities that can't be said to deal with manipulation matter at all...

Well, unless someone knows one I will add this.

Teleportation? Tho it may be explained with them moving their own matter through 11D. Shaei? I think his power is still somewhat related to calcing matter, not manipulating it. Accelerator, technically, does not manipulate matter. Kakine isn't natural matter, which is what i think the Matter hax page is about, with the exception of Shaei, the other 3 can still use their powers to interact with matter in some way, Teleporters by destroying all matter previously inside the coordinates of a teleported object, Accel by focused vector control and Kakine by transmuting matter.

 

[Ionliosite]

3 powers, a resistance and a weakness, technically. I haven't participated in the thread about the deleted powers. However, I would think level of explanation is also a factor. If I pretty much just listed the powers without further comment on them, then I could see the page not being accepted for that reason.

Ogre Physiology in particular gave a lot of explanation, from their bone structure, their brain functions, the 0.5 seconds unconsiouness, and in general all the aspect of their phisiology that made them different from humans. So lacking explanation was something that page didn't do.

 

[Zensum]

The blog looks fine to me. I say we use the latest Academy City population value, but make note that the statement changes throughout the series.

Academy City had a population of about 2.3 million, eighty percent of whom were students.
A Certain Magical Index: Genesis Testament - Volume 01

 

[Agnaa]

Given prior precedent, it seems like series with only a few abilities usually put explanations on blog posts rather than verse specific power pages. You could link to that longer explanation on every profile while giving a short descriptor on the pages themselves, like I've done on these pages.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Ogre Physiology in particular gave a lot of explanation, from their bone structure, their brain functions, the 0.5 seconds unconsiouness, and in general all the aspect of their phisiology that made them different from humans. So lacking explanation was something that page didn't do.

I mean, I feel like the importance of the details is a little different between a beings bone structure and explaining how the person with Law Manipulation, Subjective Reality and Probability Manipulation somehow isn't an ultra hax monster that can blink you out of existence with a thought.

Given prior precedent, it seems like series with only a few abilities usually put explanations on blog posts rather than verse specific power pages. You could link to that longer explanation on every profile while giving a short descriptor on the pages themselves, like I've done on these pages.

I guess I could do that... it's just that I would rather not to have those abilities on the page without a huge warning sign that they aren't as hax as they sound.

Maybe I could list the abilities as "not combat appliciable"? Then again that isn't quite true either. Maybe "only as mechanism of other abilities" or something?

It seems like somebody should inform LazyHunter about one of our instruction pages for how to sign up for this website via his message wall then.

I have done so.

 

[Agnaa]

I mean, on one of those pages I described in the notable attacks/techniques section that the powers, even if strong, require many seconds of speaking to activate.

I'm not sure what the exact limitations are in this case, maybe you could also add something to the weaknesses section?

 

[DontTalkDT]

I'm not sure what the exact limitations are in this case, maybe you could also add something to the weaknesses section?

For example, if an esper has the ability to create fire they create that fire using Probability Manipulation, Law Manipulation and Subjective Reality. The final product is just normal fire, though. And aside from creating fire the esper in question can't use the abilities for any other purpose. That's the limitation here.

I guess I could maybe add something in the weakness section about that...

 

[XDragnoir]

What about creating a "Magic and Science Powers (Toaru)" page? It would be a bit larger and would be a page that applies to nearly everyone in the series.

 

[DontTalkDT]

What about creating a "Magic and Science Powers (Toaru)" page? It would be a bit larger and would be a page that applies to nearly everyone in the series.

I doubt that just putting multiple completely separate abilities together on a single page to make the page longer would make it be allowed.
I'm clearly not the most knowledgeable on this matter, though.

 

[XDragnoir]

Well, the main problems so far seems to be the amount of powers in the page and the number of characters that would have it (we have nearly 30 espers iirc, so it isn't a small number, but anyway) so adding more powers and extending it to apply to nearly everyone is a good way of solving things. I would also add Phase Manipulation as one of the "topics", like, Personal Reality, Magic and then Phase manipulation, since it is a very important power in the series, and one with many uses, just like the Digimon supporters were going to create a page for Holy and Darkside powers.

Edit, it seems the number of espers is around 50

 

[LazyHunter]

The limited amount of abilities shared between all espers and the fact most just happen to be mechanics behind esper powers that do not really factor into their actual conscious abilities could make a blog page listing quotes and explanations a better option. Besides those three already listed in DontTalk's blog I can only think of enhanced calculation abilities, which as noted do not seem to result in genius level intelligence until you reach the higher levels, and the resistance to poison given to Academy City espers as a side effect of the curriculum's drugs, which in the end is a minor thing that has only come up once and can be beaten by fictional generic poisons of the "take you down in seconds" variety.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Guess we're going with a blog then. I made two updates to the blog in regards to what was mentioned here:

1. I simply took the bit about total number of espers off the page. It isn't important enough for the topic to validate debating on the page what the actual number is.
2. I added a note regarding calculation capacity.

Were there any other edits to do for the blog itself?

 

[XDragnoir]

Well, every explanation we have about their powers say they create their powers by manipulating the micro, and this description appears more times in the series than the mentions to changing laws, so if we have law hax, why not matter manipulation? And this one is more combat applicable than the others, so why not?

 

[Aminadab_Brulle]

Tell me how somebody like Rikou Takitsubo manipulates matter.

 

[XDragnoir]

Yeah there are a few exception, a few exceptions can still manipulate matter indirectly (Accel and Kakine) and others can't do it at all (Takitsubo, Nayuta, etc), but there are 10-15 exceptions at most, so saying "most espers have powers that allows them to manipulate matter at varying levels, from moleclular to macro-quantum" isn't wrong, since this is how Komoe explains esper powers, and is used again later to explain Holistic Espers. Also, manipulating the Micro includes energy as well, no?

 

[DontTalkDT]

Takitsubo actually manipulates matter. AIM fields amongst others can come in the form of matter affecting things after all.
That said... I'm a bit uncertain whether Matter or Quantum Manipulation would be more appropriate. Our Quantum Manipulation page seems to assume Strings being manipulated (despite strong theory not being the standard model yet), while matter manipulation page seems to not include quants like photons...
Might make a short thread to ask about where manipulating things on the quantum scale in the standard model falls at.
Scratch that. The matter manip description of quantum manip misled me. I think Esper powers are better classified as Quantum Manipulation than Micro Matter manipulation.

 

[XDragnoir]

Now we are talking about something i understand nearly nothing about, so i will leave it to you, but i agree the (near empty) quantum page describes what espers do perfectly.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Well, I added Quantum Manipulation with a short description to the page. I think all that's left to do now is to add it to all profiles somewhere. I will try to get that done later.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Next thread.