DxD Rule addition: Class Scaling

[MasqueTLDF]

This CRT is to get a general rule added to the verse page that should be followed when scaling the series, and or get this added to the discussion rules page for DxD.

Spoiler: Classes

Angel: Low, Middle, High, Ultimate, Seraph
Fallen Angel: Low, Middle, Cadre
Dragon: Low, High, Dragon King, Heavenly Dragon, Dragon God
Devil: Low, Middle, High, Ultimate, Maou, Special (Super Devils and Transcendental devils may or may not be equivalent to this.)
Grim Reaper: Low, middle, High, Ultimate (Executive may or may not be equivalent to this.)
God: God, Chief God (Combatant and Non Combatant Gods also)

1. In comparison to Boosts, the class system has been very inconsistent throughout the series despite having equal importance.
2. Narratively, the class system would lead you to believe that X character is stronger or weaker than Y, when via onscreen feats (And the Boost ability), Y is stronger than X.
3. There are examples (above) of this inconsistent method of scaling the characters (class system) contradicting the consistent method (Boosts have been accepted as being consistent in multiple threads and there is a blog covering every use of the ability to examine consistency.) of scaling the characters. (Boost)
4. The Class System doesn't only base it's scaling around strength, but other abilities as well, like achievement, royalty, leadership, speed, durability, technique, skill, ability to gather powerful teammates, potential, and other metrics. So we can't reliably determine what "X is Maou-Class" refers to exactly and we shouldn't default to assuming that it just means strength.
5. Characters that are ranked below certain classes can perform feats or output strength equal to a higher class. (Ex. Tannin is Ultimate Class but has Maou Class strength)
6. The range of strength varies widely for every class, X and Y can be in the same class but be millions of times apart via feats. (V1 Base Issei is Street Level, V2 Base Issei is Small City Level via calculated feats, both are Low Class) So when someone says, "Z is High Class", we don't know where that is due to the ranges being so varied.
7. Strength of classes vary between race. (Ex: Grim Reapers, their Ultimate Class is comparable to Devils Maou Class.) So when someone says, Y is Ultimate Class, most of the time, the description isn't detailed enough for us to know which race's class they are referring to. Especially when there are so many races in DxD (Angels, Fallen Angels, Devils, Dragons, Grim Reapers, Gods) that all are important and all are amongst the cast. It requires far too many assumptions to claim that it always refers to that of the Devils when contextually, it doesn't.
8. The top tiers of one class bleeds in to the bottom tiers of the next so claiming that X character that is a high tier of ultimate class isn't a low tier of maou class is very unreasonable.
9. Most class statements are just the author telling the reader where he believes a characters strength is via a character in the story, and because neither the author nor the characters are infallible, we should evaluate these statements with scrutiny. (Especially due to the presence of multiple authors.)
10. Some statements become outdated after a very short period of time due to the characters training. (Characters train during and between Volumes and can grow massively in short periods of time.)

For non knowledgeable members, the class system could be compared to the ninja ranking system in Naruto.

For the above reasons, I'll propose changes to how we evaluate this system and statements related to it.

1. We only use Classes to determine a minimum of a characters stats, not a cap.
2. We only use statements that are mostly sound, if any contradictions are present, we use their feats to determine which is more accurate.
3. Boosts take precedence in importance over Classes if there're contradictions between the two found.
4. Following this CRT, we make a blog determining the ranges of each class.
5. Write off certain statements that are contradicted.
6. Statements only apply at the time they are made.
7. If contradictions apply between the two authors, Ishibumi's word takes precedence.
8. Statements from the main series (DxD 1-25, Shin DxD 1-4) outweigh statements from secondary sources if there are contradictions between the two. (Spin-Offs or Side Stories like SD 1-3, DX 1-7, EX, 0, JDxD 1-2)
9. We treat the peaks of lower classes as comparable to the bottoms of higher classes. (Peak Low = Bottom Mid, Peak Mid = Bottom High, Peak High = Bottom Ultimate, etc)

Agree: Dragongod224, TotalMasterInfinity, SCARECROW1983
Neutral:
Disagree: Burning_Full_Fingers, Dark_Soul20189, Robo432343

 

[Dragongod224]

Agree

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

I strongly disagree with the overall premise of the thread, as stated in the discussion thread.

The devil rankings are based on power.

There was a system to rank a Devil’s power… Low-class Devil, Middle-class Devil, High-class devil, Ultimate-class Devil, Maou-class Devil, and Transcendental-level… I wonder what was my current power level? The Devil government assessed me as a High-class Devil level though. The Dragon who resided inside me, the Red Dragon Emperor Ddraig, laughed as he said.

The promotion system itself is literally based on one-on-one fights to assess power levels, military achievements and Rating Game achievements. This is why Ultimate class Devils take up the top ten rankings of the Rating Game. One doesn’t get promoted simply because they have contracts. They also need to be strong enough.

It doesn’t matter if you are a Lelouch or Light Yagami; if you are not strong in the Underworld, you are basically worthless.

The contracts and status does not preclude power. This is proven when “defects” like Avi Amon and Sairaorg Bael are shunned by their own families and citizens alike in the Underworld, despite their level of status and contacts. Because they were born weaker than their peers and were not born with the typical power that a High class Devil should possess.

Power is the single most important thing in the Underworld. It’s explicitly stated that a devil of lower rank will overtake the noble Devils, with power alone.

For Noble families that work as the higher ups and take importance of their bloodline, an institute that raises “Low-class” and “Untalented” Devils is something they won’t take very well.

There’s a chance that a Devil nurtured among them will be more powerful than the High-class Devils when their potential comes out. If that happens, such Devils will take the place of the noble Devils that represents the Underworld since what’s important in the current Devil’s world is strength.

That’s why there’s so much strong opposition towards building a school like this in which anyone can enrol in.

Despite Sairaorg being an outcast in his own family, he took back his position as the family head with power alone. They literally couldn’t oppose him because of his strength.

Then, one day, his world changed. His half-brother Sairaorg returned from the outskirts, and declared that he desired the position of being the next Head of the House. The current head, his father, and the first generation head laughed at Sairaorg. A Bael who didn’t possess the power of destruction trying to say that was nonsense. The current head originally wanted to cast aside his brother’s words as a joke, but he decided to use this as an opportunity to truly sever their parent-child relationship, and he ordered Magdaran to be his opponent. A few minutes after the beginning of the contest to become the next Head of the House — it was his brother’s overwhelming victory. Lying on the ground was Magdaran, who had inherited the power of destruction. Magdaran was powerless, the speed and power of his brother who had trained his body exceeded all expectations, and completely disregarded Magdaran’s power of destruction. His father, the current Head of the House also looked at Magdaran who was lying on the ground, but with a gaze that seemed as though he was looking at a pile of rubbish. Ever since then, a strange life began in the Bael castle—.

This is despite the fact that his family hates him. Magdaran was ousted and literally regarded as trash because a “defect” like Sairaorg defeated him.

Having contracts or influence does not preclude the fact that the entire hierarchy of the Underworld is determined on how strong an individual is.

No individual will be promoted to the level of a High class or Ultimate class Devil without having the requisite strength.

To provide some background for those that are unaware, all of this is coming up because I pointed out many flaws with the Boosted Gear multiplier scaling. This is quite unfortunate.

So this thread is now coming up to bend over the plot and narrative simply to accommodate the Boost multipliers. Boost is a single ability created by Ddraig to fight his rival Albion.

I emphasize; in no way does one single ability created by a single character supersede the plot, narrative and canon hierarchy established by the author and the characters.

For example:

8. Statements from the main series (DxD 1-25, Shin DxD 1-4) outweigh statements from secondary sources if there are contradictions between the two. (Spin-Offs or Side Stories like SD 1-3, DX 1-7, EX, 0, JDxD 1-2)

This point in particular has only been made, because I debunked a character (Kuroka) being Ultimate class, using information from the DX volumes.

I brought up canon information to show that Kuroka is not an Ultimate class Devil, and all of a sudden, the canon extra volumes and spinoffs in the shared universe somehow have lower precedence. It’s funny how none of this came up when we were trying to upscale the cosmology.

There is no secondary canon source. This is quite hilarious because Volume 8, 13, and 15 from the “main” story are the exact same as DX volumes. They are comedy short story compilations to depict what happens between volumes.

We have finally made new side volumes of the Highschool DxD franchise, DX volumes. The main focus of the DX volumes is short stories that have been published in the Dragon Magazines previously. Furthermore, for the newly written stories (for the DX series), I am planning to bring up “dream matches” and “dream-like moments” which can’t be done in the main series

So then, I shall introduce each story with the related timeline to the main story.

They are not “secondary” canon sources. They are all part of the same shared universe as they are written and supervised by the author. None takes precedence over the others. It’s completely baseless and this has been made up because I proved that Kuroka is not Ultimate class.

And no, we shouldn’t override the canon power hierarchy and structure to accommodate the Boost multipliers.

9. We treat the peaks of lower classes as comparable to the bottoms of higher classes.

No, we shouldn’t. To provide some background again, this is probably because I pointed out in this thread that CxC Issei is explicitly described as an Ultimate class Devil in strength.

To illustrate, CxC Issei is at the peak of Ultimate class, yet nowhere does is it said that he can take on a Maou. He’s repeatedly described to be equivalent to an Ultimate class in terms of strength.

Sensei once made a comment that my power is comparable to High-class Devils and higher. My True-Queen form is equal to Sairaorg-san in his Balance-Breaker form. The truth is, I think I can even put up a good fight against Ultimate-class Devils. But if the people from the Lucifer group who are considered the strongest among Devils can’t beat that monster, then it would be impossible for me as well! I have a bad feeling about this impossible request. Then Ophis says it.

“It sure is tough aiming to become a High-class Devil –nya. Though I think Sekiryuutei-chin is alright to be an Ultimate-class Devil in terms of strength. It’s a cruel reality that your brain has to catch up to that level.”

When Issei fights a Maou class Devil, he’s badly overwhelmed and attributes his inferiority to him fighting a Maou class.

The difference between us was simply too big. The opponent wasn’t using his full power at all! This was someone who was Maou-class! The absolute Champion! The top ranker in the Rating Games!

To further buttress this, BxB Sairaorg is equal to Issei and he was also badly overwhelmed by Bedeze. This is attributed to the fact that Bedeze is on par with a Maou.

His attacks had failed, he had suffered many injuries, and so Sairaorg wore a bitter expression in the current situation.

“…H-How can this be, even Master Sairaorg is…!”

Even Saji Genshirou felt stricken by Sairaorg’s current condition. But, Bedeze shook his head.

“You guys are wrong, you shouldn’t be so optimistic. To be honest, I’m surprised as well. I’m often described as someone with Maou-class strength.

To summarize, even these peak Ultimate class Devils are utterly overwhelmed by Maou class opponents. There’s zero evidence for them to be scaled.

Furthermore, even BxB Issei who is stated to be in the high tier of High class, explicitly needs Triaina to release a power above High class.

Of course. You guys have abnormal strength among Low-class Devils. And the ones going to the test have the powers of high-tiers of Mid-class Devils. You guys have the power of High-class devils. Especially you Ise, who can use Triaina and True-Queen can release a power that isn’t that much different from those with more power than that. Well I could say the same for Sairaorg though.

This is another case where a high tier of High class cannot reach Ultimate class. This should be incredibly obvious.

It can’t even be possible because it takes a group of experienced middle class devils to even think about taking on an inexperienced High class Devil. The “high-tier” of Middle class Devils exist and they are inferior to the High class.

The only reason they can even possibly win, is because the High class devil is inexperienced.

In conclusion, no, the high tier of one class should not be automatically scaled to the next class.

---

As far as the lineage argument goes; again, for those that have not read the novel, Devils are typically born with a certain level of strength. They can train to increase it further, but most of them don’t because they are entitled and content with their level of power.

Also everyone in the Gremory group, including you, Ise-sama, is working very hard to cover their own weaknesses. The truth is, the professionals have too much pride in their ability and their tactics, so they don’t do such a thing as training themselves. Basically, the High-class Devils are beings who don’t like to work hard and train, and they move accordingly by relying on the trait of their household and the talent running through their blood. If they feel that their servant is lacking in power, they try to solve it by trading. Of course there are many High-class Devil players who have pride in the servants they chose. But trading is something which occurs often among the players.

Normal Devils — especially the noble High-class Devils, didn’t train themselves. They fought using their own talent, knowledge, and experience. And while at that, they also remembered some techniques.

To put it simply, High class Devils are already born with an innate level of power and talent and they don’t need to train, if they don’t want to.

Rias herself could reach the highest grade of Devils without training, if she wants to.

Buchou was the first one that Sensei called out to.

“From the beginning, you have been a high-spec devil with everything, including talent, physical ability and demonic power. Even if you live normally as you currently are, those traits will rise and you’ll become a candidate for being a highest-grade devil when you become an adult. However, your wish is to become stronger than you would in that future, right?”

This is to illustrate that lineage does, in fact, influence power levels. High class Devils are already born with a lever of power and talent which exceeds the lower ranks. This is incredibly obvious to anyone that has read the novel.

The Maou descendants are especially born with an exceptional quality of demonic power. Their lineage literally determines their power. @MasqueTLDF himself even acknowledges this in the other thread, when he tries to scale Millicas to Ultimate class.

So, once again, this is another blatant case of trying to disregard the canon power structure because of the Boosted Gear multipliers.

I repeat, the Boost ability is created by a single character to fight his rival. It should not supersede the canon power hierarchy that the author has gone to great lengths to emphasize.

I will be back to clarify on more points, but overall, I disagree with some points in the OP.

 

[TotalMasterInfinity]

mark me as okay, Masque

In short, Burning believes that narrative should take priority over Scaling which is based on the evidence shown in various volumes.... even though the narrative is full of holes and inconsistencies.

Let's leave aside things like Kuroka being called Ultimate Class only to be defeated by an Isse BxB who even 6 volumes later (and several power increases) is still High Class

I already made a thread talking about this, in which I performed a Scaling without using any energy value or the Boost multiplier

But basically the origin of Burning's stubbornness is 2 things:

1) The scale shows from several angles that Issei CxC's Maximum Power surpassed Kokabiel (a Cadre)

This means that everything that scales as comparable or superior to Issei CxC's Maximum Power is also superior to Kokabiel

The problem? This includes:

A) Azazel and Baraqiel, Cadres that have a declaration of being equivalent to Kokabiel.

B) Mirana a character that has a declaration of being inferior to the Cadre.

Basically, Burning believes that the narrative statements have priority over the evidence shown despite being inconsistent with what is seen in the novels.

2) Scaling places Issei CxC's Maximum Power as superior to Old Maou.

This means that everything that scales as comparable or superior to Issei CxC's Maximum Power is also superior to Old Maou.

The problem? This includes:

A) Grendel, who is called Dragon King Class.

According to Burning a Dragon King is inferior to Old Maou... even though the first 2 Dragon Kings mentioned are described as Maou Class and the weakest Dragon King in terms of raw power scales to Grendel.

B) Issei CxC from Volume 16 onwards.

The Problem? It takes the novels 10 volumes and a power increase to directly state that Issei CxC is Maou Class.

According to Burning Issei is only Maou Class from the moment the narrative says he is even though evidence shows he was as of 10 volumes prior.

and let's not forget that Diehauser was stronger than Issei CxC Post Volume 16 which makes Diehauser also surpass the Old Maou.... which makes perfect sense because Diehauser is comparable to the New Maou who are just stronger than the Old Maou.

C) Sairaorg BxB from Volume 16 onwards and Genshirou BxB.

the problem? both are defeated by Bedeze King's Piece....which makes perfect sense because Bedeze King's Piece is comparable to the New Maou who are just stronger than the Old Maou.

D) The Cadres (minus Kokabiel) and The Seraphs.

that created ANOTHER plot hole in the Great War of the 3 Factions in which supposedly, The Cadres and The Seraphs were equivalent to the Old Maou.

Leaving aside the fact that the Great War is already full of holes like God being unable to destroy the demons and angels despite being a God Tier, the Heavenly Dragons being comparable to God and the Old Maou, when the former is a God Tier and the latter are trash compared to the Heavenly Dragons, what would be needed from the 3 Factions together to stop the Heavenly Dragon when God alone was enough.

Is it so difficult considering that the Cadres and the Seraphs have become stronger after the Great War?

 

[BlackeJan]

But basically the origin of Burning's stubbornness is 2 things:

If u don’t stop giving your attitude I will report u again. U been still acting like this with BBF for awhile now. Stop it

 

[TotalMasterInfinity]

look how I tremble.

 

[MasqueTLDF]

Be nice to each other please.

 

[MasqueTLDF]

I strongly disagree with the overall premise of the thread, as stated in the discussion thread.

The devil rankings are based on power.

And other things, disregarding the evidence I've shown doesn't make yours superior.

The promotion system itself is literally based on one-on-one fights to assess power levels, military achievements and Rating Game achievements. This is why Ultimate class Devils take up the top ten rankings of the Rating Game. One doesn’t get promoted simply because they have contracts. They also need to be strong enough.

You're saying this despite all the evidence showing otherwise.

It doesn’t matter if you are a Lelouch or Light Yagami; if you are not strong in the Underworld, you are basically worthless.

Yeah obviously, humans don't get ranked in the devil ranking system.

The contracts and status does not preclude power. This is proven when “defects” like Avi Amon and Sairaorg Bael are shunned by their own families and citizens alike in the Underworld, despite their level of status and contacts. Because they were born weaker than their peers and were not born with the typical power that a High class Devil should possess.

This literally proves my point tho, characters without the necessary strength are still able to become High Class Devil based solely on Nobility. And if this always was the case, Issei, Xenovia, Kiba, Shooting Star's Rook, Akeno, and many others wouldn't have been Low-Mid Class for as long as they were. Rias (Nobility) Ranked above Issei (Power) for a majority of the series which definitely validates what I've been saying.

Having contracts or influence does not preclude the fact that the entire hierarchy of the Underworld is determined on how strong an individual is.

Avi and Sairaorg exist.

No individual will be promoted to the level of a High class or Ultimate class Devil without having the requisite strength.

Avi and Sairaorg exist.

To provide some background for those that are unaware, all of this is coming up because I pointed out many flaws with the Boosted Gear multiplier scaling. This is quite unfortunate.

So this thread is now coming up to bend over the plot and narrative simply to accommodate the Boost multipliers. Boost is a single ability created by Ddraig to fight his rival Albion.

Lol, undermining the reason for me posting the op and what Boosts are is peak fallacy ngl.

I emphasize; in no way does one single ability created by a single character supersede the plot, narrative and canon hierarchy established by the author and the characters.

It's not just "a single dragon's ability", it is THE main ability of THE Main Character, and it's used hundreds of times throughout the story and by other cast members as well. Underselling the importance of my arguments doesn't make yours stronger.

And you're basically saying that narrative>feats which is exactly what VSBW is against

For example:

This point in particular has only been made, because I debunked a character (Kuroka) being Ultimate class, using information from the DX volumes.

I brought up canon information to show that Kuroka is not an Ultimate class Devil, and all of a sudden, the canon extra volumes and spinoffs in the shared universe somehow have lower precedence. It’s funny how none of this came up when we were trying to upscale the cosmology.

What does DX have to do with the Cosmology lol.

There is no secondary canon source. This is quite hilarious because Volume 8, 13, and 15 from the “main” story are the exact same as DX volumes. They are comedy short story compilations to depict what happens between volumes.

"Comedy short story compilations"

They are not “secondary” canon sources. They are all part of the same shared universe as they are written and supervised by the author. None takes precedence over the others. It’s completely baseless and this has been made up because I proved that Kuroka is not Ultimate class.

Main Story > Inconsistent, Comedic, Filler stories

And no, we shouldn’t override the canon power hierarchy and structure to accommodate the Boost multipliers.

We shouldn't override the single most important ability in the series to accommodate the inconsistent power system.
When baking, what's more important, the tool you use to measure the ingredients or the ingredients themselves?

No, we shouldn’t. To provide some background again, this is probably because I pointed out in this thread that CxC Issei is explicitly described as an Ultimate class Devil in strength.

To illustrate, CxC Issei is at the peak of Ultimate class, yet nowhere does is it said that he can take on a Maou. He’s repeatedly described to be equivalent to an Ultimate class in terms of strength.

DAWG, THE DUDE HE'S FIGHTING IS STRONGER THAN MAOU CLASS OPPONENTS AND THE STATEMENT IS ABOUT A MUCH WEAKER ISSEI

When Issei fights a Maou class Devil, he’s badly overwhelmed and attributes his inferiority to him fighting a Maou class.

BECAUSE HE LITERALLY HAS THE POWER TO NEGATE ALL OF ISSEI'S ATTACKS

To further buttress this, BxB Sairaorg is equal to Issei and he was also badly overwhelmed by Bedeze. This is attributed to the fact that Bedeze is on par with a Maou.

BEDEZE LITERALLY USED HIS OWN ATTACKS AGAINST HIM BRO, and lets not act like two characters of the same class can't get stomped by the other. Not everyone has the exact same strength, two people can be in the same class, and one can be stronger than the other.

To summarize, even these peak Ultimate class Devils are utterly overwhelmed by Maou class opponents. There’s zero evidence for them to be scaled.

Again, CxC Issei and BxB Sairaorg from Volume 16-21 are not Ultimate Class, they are never stated to be that strength and you're outright lying for the sake of looking good in the thread.

Furthermore, even BxB Issei who is stated to be in the high tier of High class, explicitly needs Triaina to release a power above High class.

Uh, no, it's never stated that he NEEDS it to reach that level just that he is when using that ability, again, an outright lie.

This is another case where a high tier of High class cannot reach Ultimate class. This should be incredibly obvious.

My point wasn't to say that the peak of one tier can reach the next, the point was that the difference between the peak of one and the bottom of another is so negligible that it doesn't matter, which as I've shown is backed up by the story.

It can’t even be possible because it takes a group of experienced middle class devils to even think about taking on an inexperienced High class Devil. The “high-tier” of Middle class Devils exist and they are inferior to the High class.

The only reason they can even possibly win, is because the High class devil is inexperienced.

"Experienced" doesn't mean high tier, a high tier is the pinnacle of strength.

In conclusion, no, the high tier of one class should not be automatically scaled to the next class.

---

In conclusion, they should as your arguments were predicated on lies, exaggerations, or false narratives.

As far as the lineage argument goes; again, for those that have not read the novel, Devils are typically born with a certain level of strength. They can train to increase it further, but most of them don’t because they are entitled and content with their level of power.

Avi Amon, Sairaorg Bael.

To put it simply, High class Devils are already born with an innate level of power and talent and they don’t need to train, if they don’t want to.

Yet we already have examples where this isn't necessarily the case.

Rias herself could reach the highest grade of Devils without training, if she wants to.

This is to illustrate that lineage does, in fact, influence power levels. High class Devils are already born with a lever of power and talent which exceeds the lower ranks. This is incredibly obvious to anyone that has read the novel.

Avi and Sai again

The Maou descendants are especially born with an exceptional quality of demonic power. Their lineage literally determines their power. @MasqueTLDF himself even acknowledges this in the other thread, when he tries to scale Millicas to Ultimate class.

And in that thread you said it was wrong, so is it only true when you want it to be? Does DxD have to fit your narrative? If you acknowledge what I said there then you concede to Millicas and by extent V13 BxB Issei being Ultimate Class.

So, once again, this is another blatant case of trying to disregard the canon power structure because of the Boosted Gear multipliers.

The Boosted Gear's Multipliers are also part of the canon power structure bro.

I repeat, the Boost ability is created by a single character to fight his rival. It should not supersede the canon power hierarchy that the author has gone to great lengths to emphasize.

Crazy Bad Faith Argument ngl.

It's not just "a single dragon's ability", it is THE main ability of THE Main Character, and it's used hundreds of times throughout the story and by other cast members as well. Underselling the importance of my arguments doesn't make yours stronger.

 

[MasqueTLDF]

mark me as okay, Masque

In short, Burning believes that narrative should take priority over Scaling which is based on the evidence shown in various volumes.... even though the narrative is full of holes and inconsistencies.

Let's leave aside things like Kuroka being called Ultimate Class only to be defeated by an Isse BxB who even 6 volumes later (and several power increases) is still High Class

I already made a thread talking about this, in which I performed a Scaling without using any energy value or the Boost multiplier

But basically the origin of Burning's stubbornness is 2 things:

1) The scale shows from several angles that Issei CxC's Maximum Power surpassed Kokabiel (a Cadre)

This means that everything that scales as comparable or superior to Issei CxC's Maximum Power is also superior to Kokabiel

The problem? This includes:

A) Azazel and Baraqiel, Cadres that have a declaration of being equivalent to Kokabiel.

B) Mirana a character that has a declaration of being inferior to the Cadre.

Basically, Burning believes that the narrative statements have priority over the evidence shown despite being inconsistent with what is seen in the novels.

2) Scaling places Issei CxC's Maximum Power as superior to Old Maou.

This means that everything that scales as comparable or superior to Issei CxC's Maximum Power is also superior to Old Maou.

The problem? This includes:

A) Grendel, who is called Dragon King Class.

According to Burning a Dragon King is inferior to Old Maou... even though the first 2 Dragon Kings mentioned are described as Maou Class and the weakest Dragon King in terms of raw power scales to Grendel.

B) Issei CxC from Volume 16 onwards.

The Problem? It takes the novels 10 volumes and a power increase to directly state that Issei CxC is Maou Class.

According to Burning Issei is only Maou Class from the moment the narrative says he is even though evidence shows he was as of 10 volumes prior.

and let's not forget that Diehauser was stronger than Issei CxC Post Volume 16 which makes Diehauser also surpass the Old Maou.... which makes perfect sense because Diehauser is comparable to the New Maou who are just stronger than the Old Maou.

C) Sairaorg BxB from Volume 16 onwards and Genshirou BxB.

the problem? both are defeated by Bedeze King's Piece....which makes perfect sense because Bedeze King's Piece is comparable to the New Maou who are just stronger than the Old Maou.

D) The Cadres (minus Kokabiel) and The Seraphs.

that created ANOTHER plot hole in the Great War of the 3 Factions in which supposedly, The Cadres and The Seraphs were equivalent to the Old Maou.

Leaving aside the fact that the Great War is already full of holes like God being unable to destroy the demons and angels despite being a God Tier, the Heavenly Dragons being comparable to God and the Old Maou, when the former is a God Tier and the latter are trash compared to the Heavenly Dragons, what would be needed from the 3 Factions together to stop the Heavenly Dragon when God alone was enough.

Is it so difficult considering that the Cadres and the Seraphs have become stronger after the Great War?

Literally, if Burning's method of scaling the series is the one we use, the series will be filled with plot holes.
Saying that Shalba is above Grendel is like saying Raditz is above Nappa ngl.
But I'll refrain from making any further statements unless I see anything too egregious, I don't want this to become a 10 page long back and forth discussion that no staff can evaluate after all. I've said all I have to say and my arguments are already out there.

 

[SCARECROW1983]

I agree, although I have doubts regarding the extra volumes, more precisely the EX volumes since they have a lot of information for power levels and cosmology.

 

[MasqueTLDF]

I agree, although I have doubts regarding the extra volumes, more precisely the EX volumes since they have a lot of information for power levels and cosmology.

I'm not excluding them, it's just that if any contradictions arise between them and the main story, the main story takes precedence. Otherwise, they're still completely fine to use.

 

[SCARECROW1983]

I'm not excluding them, it's just that if any contradictions arise between them and the main story, the main story takes precedence. Otherwise, they're still completely fine to use.

I think the only "contradiction" there is is with the level of Ruma idra, right?

 

[MasqueTLDF]

I think the only "contradiction" there is is with the level of Ruma idra, right?

There is no contradiction, it's just a method of future proofing in case any problems do arise. Don't even worry about it.

 

[SCARECROW1983]

There is no contradiction, it's just a method of future proofing in case any problems do arise. Don't even worry about it.

Ok, I agree with everything with that.

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

I would rather no one got reported, but getting angry or fed up at me won’t do anything. I still have several things to bring up. I simply hate the idea of bending over the plot and internal consistency to accommodate these fanon numbers from Boost.

It’s very unfortunate that biggatons from multipliers would be preferred over internal consistency.

---

Before I have enough time to reply to more points in the OP, I’ll quickly touch upon the extra volumes again.

As I have said, the DX volumes are short story compilations, typically published through the Dragon Magazine format. This is the exact same situation for Volume 8, 13, and 15 which are also short story compilations from Dragon Magazine. Let everyone see for themselves.

[Devil's Job] – Timeline: After Volume 1

This is the story I should celebrate about since it was the first short story. When it was published, Asia hasn’t appeared yet. So I formatted this for the short story. This was published on the Dragon Magazine which came out on the same month as volume 1. Even though it was a very important beginning for this series, I did outrageous things like making a busha appear. What was I thinking….. It became the subtitle of volume 8.

[Ise SOS] – Timeline: After Volume 5

In terms of the story, it happened right after the “A Tokusatsu Devil”. It can also be said that it happened right before volume 6. This is the celebration short story since Dragon Magazine had “DxD” as the cover when this short story appeared. Abe-senpai the monster-tamer who has appeared in the main story appeared once again. Not only the snow Gorilla, but also a tuna with legs and Nagoya-kochin also appeared. By the way, the real beautiful mermaid appeared in a different short story. When I have a chance, I’m thinking of it being published on the compilation of short stories.

We have finally made new side volumes of the Highschool DxD franchise, DX volumes. The main focus of the DX volumes is short stories that have been published in the Dragon Magazines previously. Furthermore, for the newly written stories (for the DX series), I am planning to bring up “dream matches” and “dream-like moments” which can’t be done in the main series

So then, I shall introduce each story with the related timeline to the main story.

As you can see, they quite explicitly are all short stories written by the author on Dragon Magazine and every one of them has a timeline.

Nowhere does Ishibumi mention that we should see the short stories as secondary. It’s completely made up, as far as I can see. In fact, I don’t recall any light novel on this wiki that has this treatment? Even the Fate franchise, with dozens of different writers and stories that take place in parallel worlds, doesn’t get this treatment.
There literally is no difference between these volumes. DX volumes were simply created so that they wouldn’t continue to take up space in the main volumes, else they would still be in the main volumes.

They are not “lesser” canon, which I will now prove beyond doubt - not that it needs any suspension of disbelief, in the first place.

How?

Let’s look at Volume 5 of the main story. Saji claims that his parents (especially his mother) are alive and relieved that he developed his own goal in life.

Saji spoke while feeling embarrassed.

“Hehehe. I kept the fact that I became a devil secret from my mother, but even so she cried when I told her about my future dream. [You, become a teacher!] She may have said that because it doesn’t suit me. But, it wasn’t bad, the relieved face of my mother.”

What is the issue with this? It’s the fact that Saji’s entire backstory has now literally been retconned in a DX volume. His parents are not actually alive; they were killed in a car crash.

Saji’s sister said. Afterwards, I pried a bit more about Saji’s family situation. About their parents — their father was originally a teacher, and their mother was a museum staff member. Both of them had been engaged in education-related work. Both of them passed away five years ago in an unfortunate traffic accident when both of them were in the car. It happened shortly after Saji’s little brother was born.

Following the accident, their grandfather took care of them and they stayed together up until last year. However, the grandfather who took care of them also passed away last year due to illness—. Having lost their loved ones — after the three siblings lost their guardian, Saji incidentally encountered Sona-senpai, and she learnt about the Sacred Gear within Saji, which lead to him becoming her servant and provided him with the means for support. And then, they moved into this apartment...

This is a very blatant case of a DX volume overwriting the main story. If we were to pretend that the main volume is of a higher canon, we would basically be saying that Saji’s parents are somehow still alive, which is completely illogical.

The same thing happened with Kuroka; she’s explicitly confirmed to be High class in strength via the extra volumes, which adds up to the fact that she lost to Issei when he was High class.

In conclusion, we have very explicit cases of the DX volumes retconning canon events and power levels. It’s completely illogical to claim that they are overwritten by the main volumes, unless of course, someone can prove that Saji’s parents are still alive.

 

[MasqueTLDF]

I would rather no one got reported, but getting angry or fed up at me won’t do anything. I still have several things to bring up. I simply hate the idea of bending over the plot and internal consistency to accommodate these fanon numbers from Boost.

It’s very unfortunate that biggatons from multipliers would be preferred over internal consistency.

---

Before I have enough time to reply to more points in the OP, I’ll quickly touch upon the extra volumes again.

As I have said, the DX volumes are short story compilations, typically published through the Dragon Magazine format. This is the exact same situation for Volume 8, 13, and 15 which are also short story compilations from Dragon Magazine. Let everyone see for themselves.






As you can see, they quite explicitly are all short stories written by the author on Dragon Magazine and every one of them has a timeline.

Nowhere does Ishibumi mention that we should see the short stories as secondary. It’s completely made up, as far as I can see. In fact, I don’t recall any light novel on this wiki that has this treatment? Even the Fate franchise, with dozens of different writers and stories that take place in parallel worlds, doesn’t get this treatment.
There literally is no difference between these volumes. DX volumes were simply created so that they wouldn’t continue to take up space in the main volumes, else they would still be in the main volumes.

They are not “lesser” canon, which I will now prove beyond doubt - not that it needs any suspension of disbelief, in the first place.

I never claimed that they were called Secondary, I made the claim that they were secondary myself based on what was presented. And what was presented is that these are comedy focused short storiew where "dream like" events happen. And since they are not the main story, they are evidently secondary in nature.

How?

Let’s look at Volume 5 of the main story. Saji claims that his parents (especially his mother) are alive and relieved that he developed his own goal in life.



What is the issue with this? It’s the fact that Saji’s entire backstory has now literally been retconned in a DX volume. His parents are not actually alive; they were killed in a car crash.


This is a very blatant case of a DX volume overwriting the main story. If we were to pretend that the main volume is of a higher canon, we would basically be saying that Saji’s parents are somehow still alive, which is completely illogical.

I don't believe that one valid example of DX overwriting a mention in the main story is enough to place it on the same pedestal as the main series, maybe if there were other examples? But DX 4 is an obvious exception to the rule anyway given it doesn't follow the "comedic, dream-like" setting that the DX series usually does and instead functions as a serious story closer to the main series, you and I both know this so I don't think using an outlier is the best piece of evidence for your argument.

The same thing happened with Kuroka; she’s explicitly confirmed to be High class in strength via the extra volumes, which adds up to the fact that she lost to Issei when he was High class.

Except unlike the Saji instance where his backstory comes from a one-off mention, Kuroka actually has evidence to support her being Ultimate rather than High Class. The Vali team is exclusively comprised of strong individuals (and High Class isn't exactly the best feat), she killed a high class devil many years ago and has only gotten stronger since, she's compared to Tannin, an Ultimate Class Devil by a knowledgeable source (Koneko), she defeated a team of 2 Low Class Devils and 1 High Class by herself with ease, survived an attack from BxB Vali, she has a large surplus of various magic skills (more than most High Classes in the series), and the BxB Issei that she faced was specifically at the peak of High Class, which, as we established earlier was basically Ultimate Class.

In conclusion, we have very explicit cases of the DX volumes retconning canon events and power levels. It’s completely illogical to claim that they are overwritten by the main volumes, unless of course, someone can prove that Saji’s parents are still alive.

And again, that isn't necessary fra. And please don't send long quote walls of things already showcased in the OP, that's just making the thread unnecessarily longer.

Also, though I'd mention the amount of fallacious arguments you've used.

Spoiler: Quote 1

To provide some background for those that are unaware, all of this is coming up because I pointed out many flaws with the Boosted Gear multiplier scaling. This is quite unfortunate.

So this thread is now coming up to bend over the plot and narrative simply to accommodate the Boost multipliers. Boost is a single ability created by Ddraig to fight his rival Albion.

I emphasize; in no way does one single ability created by a single character supersede the plot, narrative and canon hierarchy established by the author and the characters.

For example:

This point in particular has only been made, because I debunked a character (Kuroka) being Ultimate class, using information from the DX volumes.

I brought up canon information to show that Kuroka is not an Ultimate class Devil, and all of a sudden, the canon extra volumes and spinoffs in the shared universe somehow have lower precedence. It’s funny how none of this came up when we were trying to upscale the cosmology.

There is no secondary canon source. This is quite hilarious because Volume 8, 13, and 15 from the “main” story are the exact same as DX volumes. They are comedy short story compilations to depict what happens between volumes.

They are not “secondary” canon sources. They are all part of the same shared universe as they are written and supervised by the author. None takes precedence over the others. It’s completely baseless and this has been made up because I proved that Kuroka is not Ultimate class.

And no, we shouldn’t override the canon power hierarchy and structure to accommodate the Boost multipliers.

No, we shouldn’t. To provide some background again, this is probably because I pointed out in this thread that CxC Issei is explicitly described as an Ultimate class Devil in strength.

So, once again, this is another blatant case of trying to disregard the canon power structure because of the Boosted Gear multipliers.

1.

Spoiler: Quote 2

Nowhere does Ishibumi mention that we should see the short stories as secondary. It’s completely made up, as far as I can see. In fact, I don’t recall any light novel on this wiki that has this treatment? Even the Fate franchise, with dozens of different writers and stories that take place in parallel worlds, doesn’t get this treatment.
There literally is no difference between these volumes. DX volumes were simply created so that they wouldn’t continue to take up space in the main volumes, else they would still be in the main volumes.

2.

Spoiler: Quote 3

I strongly disagree with the overall premise of the thread, as stated in the discussion thread.

The devil rankings are based on power.


The promotion system itself is literally based on one-on-one fights to assess power levels, military achievements and Rating Game achievements. This is why Ultimate class Devils take up the top ten rankings of the Rating Game. One doesn’t get promoted simply because they have contracts. They also need to be strong enough.

It doesn’t matter if you are a Lelouch or Light Yagami; if you are not strong in the Underworld, you are basically worthless.

The contracts and status does not preclude power. This is proven when “defects” like Avi Amon and Sairaorg Bael are shunned by their own families and citizens alike in the Underworld, despite their level of status and contacts. Because they were born weaker than their peers and were not born with the typical power that a High class Devil should possess.

Power is the single most important thing in the Underworld. It’s explicitly stated that a devil of lower rank will overtake the noble Devils, with power alone.

Despite Sairaorg being an outcast in his own family, he took back his position as the family head with power alone. They literally couldn’t oppose him because of his strength.

This is despite the fact that his family hates him. Magdaran was ousted and literally regarded as trash because a “defect” like Sairaorg defeated him.

Having contracts or influence does not preclude the fact that the entire hierarchy of the Underworld is determined on how strong an individual is.

No individual will be promoted to the level of a High class or Ultimate class Devil without having the requisite strength.

To put it simply, High class Devils are already born with an innate level of power and talent and they don’t need to train, if they don’t want to.

Rias herself could reach the highest grade of Devils without training, if she wants to.

This is to illustrate that lineage does, in fact, influence power levels. High class Devils are already born with a lever of power and talent which exceeds the lower ranks. This is incredibly obvious to anyone that has read the novel.

3.

Spoiler: Quote 4

This is a very blatant case of a DX volume overwriting the main story. If we were to pretend that the main volume is of a higher canon, we would basically be saying that Saji’s parents are somehow still alive, which is completely illogical.

4. This is unrelated to my argument but I though I'd mention these anyway since I already debunked your points.There are more I could mention but I'm not sure if that's necessary.

 

[TotalMasterInfinity]

I simply hate the idea of bending over the plot and internal consistency to accommodate these fanon numbers from Boost.

It’s very unfortunate that biggatons from multipliers would be preferred over internal consistency.

No one is changing the plot.
Nor is anyone adapting anything.
internal consistency? You're talking about the narrative full of holes that you keep clinging to.

It was literally shown to you without needing energy values or using the Boost multiplier that the Maximum Power of First CxC is above Kokabiel and the Old Maou, but you keep insisting on denying it just because of:
-a statement that is inconsistent with the scale presented throughout several volumes of which you have not even tried to debate any point.
-a statement that affirms something that a simple analysis makes clear was true since 10 volumes before.
-a plot that already has many holes and inconsistencies.

If you don't like it, that's okay, you don't have to like it, but stop making an issue out of it.

 

[Antvasima]

TMI: This is a warning that you need to be polite and otherwise behave well to Burning Full Fingers. It is against our rules to continuously be rude to other members here.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

I am personally against creating rules, without a real reason. This means repeated CRTs that have been rejected with the same arguments/feats.

Something DxD currently lacks.

It just feels like this entire rule is just to make stuff not debunkable, and that breaks the entire reason rules for specific verses we have on the wiki...

So yeah, I disagree with the thread and what it is trying to propose.

 

[TotalMasterInfinity]

@Antvasima, what should take priority, the scale presented by the series or statements that are inconsistent with what we have seen?

 

[Digital_Franz]

Something DxD currently lacks.

Yeah.

The Class issue is related to the Boost issue and is a reason why Boosts were treated differently. It creates inconsistencies and I don't think trying to create that kind of rule is the right approach here.

 

[TotalMasterInfinity]

Wrong, this problem stems from the desire to give priority to a single statement that is inconsistent, a plot with many holes, and a statement that affirms something that has been obvious for several volumes.

 

[MasqueTLDF]

I am personally against creating rules, without a real reason. This means repeated CRTs that have been rejected with the same arguments/feats.

Something DxD currently lacks.

It just feels like this entire rule is just to make stuff not debunkable, and that breaks the entire reason rules for specific verses we have on the wiki...

So yeah, I disagree with the thread and what it is trying to propose.

There is a real reason as I've outlined in the OP.
And verse rules on this site are literally made so that certain arguments can't be used, which is what I'm proposing. (I can provide examples if you'd like.) And you haven't even pointed out any flaws in the argument I gave to begin with so how am I in the wrong here?
Like, the only real argument I've seen so far that wasn't immediately debunked was that I'm doing this just to upgrade the verse, when obviously I'm not and that's a fallacious argument to begin with.

 

[MasqueTLDF]

Yeah.

The Class issue is related to the Boost issue and is a reason why Boosts were treated differently. It creates inconsistencies and I don't think trying to create that kind of rule is the right approach here.

Bro, the class system is the inconsistency. What's more important when it comes to scaling, figuring out the strength of a character, or figuring out which characters in the verse scale above the other? If we prioritize the latter (Class), the ratings will be "Unknown (Stronger than X)", if we prioritize the former (Boosts), we will still have ratings for every character and still be able to compare them. + The Class System is inconsistent and fills the series with plot holes while the Boost ability doesn't. There are literally no cons to prioritizing Boosts over the Class System, and it's not like we'd be abandoning it anyway, just changing the order of importance.

If you'd like an analogy, if you're in a desert, what would you rather have. Water? Or a container meant to hold the water?

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

There is a real reason as I've outlined in the OP.
And verse rules on this site are literally made so that certain arguments can't be used, which is what I'm proposing. (I can provide examples if you'd like.) And you haven't even pointed out any flaws in the argument I gave to begin with so how am I in the wrong here?

The problem is that it doesn't meet the standard to create verse rules. It has nothing to do with either side being wrong or right, nor am I claiming that.

What I am saying is that to create a verse rule, you need to have had people repeatedly create CRTs with the same arguments/scans, That are being rejected for the same reason. Not simply because of pushing a certain agenda. That my friend can be dealt with in a CRT.

 

[BlackeJan]

Well it should be known that just cause people r in a certain class, doesn’t mean they’ll be as strong as that person. For example, Issei beat Sairaorg yet one is a High Class vs a Pawn or how Sairaorg and Rias r both High Class, yet the latter knows she could never beat nor touch him if they were to battle

 

[MasqueTLDF]

The problem is that it doesn't meet the standard to create verse rules. It has nothing to do with either side being wrong or right, nor am I claiming that.

There isn't a standard for verse specific rules as far as I'm aware.

What I am saying is that to create a verse rule, you need to have had people repeatedly create CRTs with the same arguments/scans, That are being rejected for the same reason. Not simply because of pushing a certain agenda. That my friend can be dealt with in a CRT.

The closest thing to that is this, which as far as I'm aware just applies generally, it doesn't state anywhere that it only applies to verse specific rules.

However, certain topics keep popping up repeatedly, generally made by new members, despite being discussed and resolved multiple times in the past. The managing staff has grown weary of continuously settling the more controversial issues to rest again and again, and hence have listed a few rules, to limit redundant discussions.

And again, as I've stated previously, this is future proofing so that no one tries to use provable incorrect information in a CRT.

 

[MasqueTLDF]

Well it should be known that just cause people r in a certain class, doesn’t mean they’ll be as strong as that person. For example, Issei beat Sairaorg yet one is a High Class vs a Pawn or how Sairaorg and Rias r both High Class, yet the latter knows she could never beat nor touch him if they were to battle

That's my point exactly. (Also, Pawn isn't a class. Issei is currently a pawn yet ranked higher than Sairaorg and Rias.)

 

[Digital_Franz]

Bro, the class system is the inconsistency. What's more important when it comes to scaling, figuring out the strength of a character, or figuring out which characters in the verse scale above the other? If we prioritize the latter (Class), the ratings will be "Unknown (Stronger than X)", if we prioritize the former (Boosts), we will still have ratings for every character and still be able to compare them. + The Class System is inconsistent and fills the series with plot holes while the Boost ability doesn't. There are literally no cons to prioritizing Boosts over the Class System, and it's not like we'd be abandoning it anyway, just changing the order of importance.

The point is that it's the narrative too. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

If you'd like an analogy, if you're in a desert, what would you rather have. Water? Or a container meant to hold the water?

Both lol.

 

[Robo432343]

@Burning_Full_Fingers is right

 

[MasqueTLDF]

The point is that it's the narrative too. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

If it doesn't work then we don't use it.

Both lol.

I wish it was that easy lol.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

There isn't a standard for verse specific rules as far as I'm aware.

The closest thing to that is this, which as far as I'm aware just applies generally, it doesn't state anywhere that it only applies to verse specific rules.

And again, as I've stated previously, this is future proofing so that no one tries to use provable incorrect information in a CRT.

So we are completely ignoring this part

However, certain topics keep popping up repeatedly, generally made by new members, despite being discussed and resolved multiple times in the past. The managing staff has grown weary of continuously settling the more controversial issues to rest again and again, and hence have listed a few rules, to limit redundant discussions.

You legit showed proof of what I was saying, the point is that verse rules are meant to prevent redundant CRTs that have been repeatedly rejected, not to prevent debunks to spin a certain Agenda. That is what you are doing.

 

[MasqueTLDF]

@Burning_Full_Fingers is right

He isn't.

 

[MasqueTLDF]

So we are completely ignoring this part

I wouldn't have shown it if I was ignoring it.

You legit showed proof of what I was saying, the point is that verse rules are meant to prevent redundant CRTs that have been repeatedly rejected,

Again, nowhere does it state that it specifically applies to and is necessary for Verse Rules.

not to prevent debunks to spin a certain Agenda. That is what you are doing.

Lol, instead of attacking my character, why not attack my arguments? Try to prove them wrong.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

I wouldn't have shown it if I was ignoring it.

Again, nowhere does it state that it specifically applies to and is necessary for Verse Rules.

Lol, instead of attacking my character, why not attack my arguments? Try to prove them wrong.

It literally is repeatedly stated to be about preventing repeated discussions that has happened multiple times in the past... Not prevent possible discussions in the future.

 

[MasqueTLDF]

It literally is repeatedly stated to be about preventing repeated discussions that has happened multiple times in the past... Not prevent possible discussions in the future.

Again, nowhere does it state that it specifically applies to and is necessary for Verse Rules.

 

[TotalMasterInfinity]

@Burning_Full_Fingers is right

No, he doesn't have it.

 

[SweetDao]

I mean, rules for verses should only be created/enforced for things that were repeatedly talked about. Like the whole "downgrading Nasuverse to below tier 1". Which, in fact, could be bypassed if some new arguments or scans are added.

So yeah, future-proofing seems like a weird way to apply a "rule" for the verse. From the examples within this page, it seems like that, perhaps due to either the straightforwardness of some of the "rules" or the weird lack of links to CRT being made to defend/attack specific cases, some of them may seem to exist out of nowhere. But every one of them seems to have some sort of precedent one way or another before a rule was instigated.

 

[MasqueTLDF]

I mean, rules for verses should only be created/enforced for things that were repeatedly talked about. Like the whole "downgrading Nasuverse to below tier 1". Which, in fact, could be bypassed if some new arguments or scans are added.

So yeah, future-proofing seems like a weird way to apply a "rule" for the verse. From the examples within this page, it seems like that, perhaps due to either the straightforwardness of some of the "rules" or the weird lack of links to CRT being made to defend/attack specific cases, some of them may seem to exist out of nowhere. But every one of them seems to have some sort of precedent one way or another before a rule was instigated.

Again, a precedent isn't a rule, and couldn't this thread be treated as a debate featuring the arguments I'm going against as an example of something that staff reject or are tired of? (If this sentence made any sense, I know my wording was poor here lol) Some rules only have one thread as an example, couldn't this be treated as such?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

For non knowledgeable members, the class system could be compared to the ninja ranking system in Naruto.

Suppose I'm not familiar with either.

Regardless, the OP is not clear: what exact rule are you intending to give, here? Is it your intent to establish 10 entire rules for the verse? You must understand that this is an extreme measure the wiki does not take lightly, such that literally no verse, no matter how controversial, has 10 rules specifically for it; rules are intended for subjects that have been discussed to death, have led to extreme toxicity from a large amount of users, and thus cannot be amended amicably. Normally people are banned before we apply a verse rule.

These are the final line of defense- canonizing some element of the scaling is an extreme measure that runs counter to our philosophies.