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DxD 2-A Cosmology Upgrade CRT

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Vietthai96 said:
Then it isn't a void, it can't both be void and have space-time
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I never claimed that it was a void, some translations call it "Dimensional Void". But assuming that it is literally a void with nothing within it just because of its name would make your argument fallacious.
 
MasqueTLDF said:
I never claimed that it was a void, some translations call it "Dimensional Void". But assuming that it is literally a void with nothing within it just because of its name would make your argument fallacious.
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Isn't you said something about remove Death hax from it and replace it with Void hax as people die if they in Dimensional Gap for awhile???
 
Vietthai96 said:
Human Realm is just Earth the planet, having infinite touki, touki is just ki, energy doesn't mean Earth or Human Realm is infinite
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I agree. Having infinite energy doesn't correlate to infinite size. But I didn't want to have this argument for too long since I don't think it matters.

Also, how is the Human Realm just a planet if it has stars? Why are we assuming it is any different from a regular universe?

Vietthai96 said:
Even of we talking about literal stars, it is Multi-Solar at most??, having time doesn't mean it is an entire universe on it own, like, pocket space-time is a thing. Beside Ultima still not really change Low 2-C standard yet
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It seems more likely to me that it is an entire universe, rather than just being stars, especially if it possesses its own timeline.

Though I will say statements like these have me doubting the scenery is real.

MasqueTLDF said:
The person who was in control of the Dimensional Gap for the longest known period of time, who is also the most knowledgeable of it making the statement begs to differ.
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This doesn't mean anything... just because someone says "days have passed" in a timeless realm doesn't mean it suddenly has time.

It's like how the Tournament of Power in DB took place in 48 minutes despite it being in a "World of Void."

It doesn't suddenly make the realm have some superior time or anything like that. It is purely perception-based.


MasqueTLDF said:
"Beyond" was just phrasing used so that I wouldn't have to copy and paste every single quote.
Click to expand...
The quotes similarly just suggest that the realm is spaceless/timeless, not that it exceeds space-time.

MasqueTLDF said:
*Surrounds every world, a realm where time and space are irrelevant
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Surrounding every world would just scale it to the amount of worlds inside it, which is what I've been saying. Space-time being irrelevant is the crux of why it by itself is unquantifiable in tier.

MasqueTLDF said:
*Again, it isn't Timeless
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You yourself said time is irrelevant there. And this is contradictory to the statements, particularly of Gasper not being able to stop time there.

MasqueTLDF said:
Right after it gets accepted? You couldn't have proposed this argument during the weeks this CRT was active? Given this and your unfaithful arguments, I'd think you'd have some sort of bias. (If it isn't out of place for me to say this)
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This is unfortunately the first time I am seeing this thread.

I love DxD.
 
Vietthai96 said:
Isn't you said something about remove Death hax from it and replace it with Void hax as people die if they in Dimensional Gap for awhile???
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I've never said anything like that. Again, rather than changing the topic, since the change was already made, it'd be better to close this thread.
 
Phoenks said:
Also, how is the Human Realm just a planet if it has stars? Why are we assuming it is any different from a regular universe?
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I remember Human Realm is interchangable with Earth the planet, multiple times in the novel, but since i dropped the novel long ago due to the hiatus, i don't remember the exact part to find statements, and my old HDD is dead so i lost all the novel, not bother to find them anymore

Also even if we just assume the Human Realm is the actual universe, no one ever affect it, evident by Issei stated he can destroy the planet in AxA with maximum power but he will die along with it. Other god tier characters mostly stated to be able to destroy the world, with the word world is vague, like how......eh......iirc Azazel claimed mastering nemea allow user to split the earth, but it turn out the earth in Kanji is actually mean the ground.

Anyway, everything get changed so talling here is futile, i just hope the main Shin DxD continue, but look like a pointless hope
 
Phoenks said:
Though I will say statements like these have me doubting the scenery is real.
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That isn't the Human Realm, it's Hell. And characters have created real physical matter from Demonic Power before like clothes and other things.
Phoenks said:
This doesn't mean anything... just because someone says "days have passed" in a timeless realm doesn't mean it suddenly has time.

It's like how the Tournament of Power in DB took place in 48 minutes despite it being in a "World of Void."

It doesn't suddenly make the realm have some superior time or anything like that. It is purely perception-based.
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Again, it isn't timeless. Yes, it literally does.

Different series, name fallacy, and the World of Void has objects in it thus not making it a void and the statements of time passing implies the existence of time thus negating your argument.

Contains numerous space-times and is a world where time was irrelevant (As Devils perceive it).
Phoenks said:
The quotes similarly just suggest that the realm is spaceless/timeless, not that it exceeds space-time.
Click to expand...
Incorrect FRA
Phoenks said:
Surrounding every world would just scale it to the amount of worlds inside it, which is what I've been saying. Space-time being irrelevant is the crux of why it by itself is unquantifiable in tier.


You yourself said time is irrelevant there. And this is contradictory to the statements, particularly of Gasper not being able to stop time there.


This is unfortunately the first time I am seeing this thread.

I love DxD.
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I disagree FRA. Again, irrelevant from the perception of a Devil. Ophis' (who has more knowledge) statement should be more accurate.

Typically, a 3D being can't affect 4D space, same reasoning.

Hmm

And you can still enjoy the series without wanting the character's tiering to change. Again, not trying to be disrespectful, but I just don't think your reasoning really has much ground.
 
Vietthai96 said:
Also even if we just assume the Human Realm is the actual universe, no one ever affect it, evident by Issei stated he can destroy the planet in AxA with maximum power but he will die along with it. Other god tier characters mostly stated to be able to destroy the world, with the word world is vague, like how......eh......iirc Azazel claimed mastering nemea allow user to split the earth, but it turn out the earth in Kanji is actually mean the ground.
Click to expand...
Apparently God created the human world (dunno if it means the planet of the whole universe) and he had trouble with Albion and Draig, moreover Trihexa was able to tango with God iirc and Ophis/Great Red are on his level or higher.

Now the problem is if creating the universe (or planet) would scale to their stats.
 
Vietthai96 said:
Also even if we just assume the Human Realm is the actual universe, no one ever affect it, evident by Issei stated he can destroy the planet in AxA with maximum power but he will die along with it. Other god tier characters mostly stated to be able to destroy the world, with the word world is vague, like how......eh......iirc Azazel claimed mastering nemea allow user to split the earth, but it turn out the earth in Kanji is actually mean the ground.
Click to expand...

Tony_di_bugalu said:
Apparently God created the human world (dunno if it means the planet of the whole universe) and he had trouble with Albion and Draig, moreover Trihexa was able to tango with God iirc and Ophis/Great Red are on his level or higher.

Now the problem is if creating the universe (or planet) would scale to their stats.
Click to expand...
This is not the place to talk about the stats of characters
 
@ActuallySpaceMan42 @DarkDragonMedeus calling y'all back here because the reasoning for 2-A absolutely doesn't fly lol.

The Dimensional Gap is just a spaceless, timeless void that surrounds all the DxD planes. There is not an infinite amount of space-times inside of it.

The reasoning used to argue 2-A was that it is "infinite on a 4D scale" which is not even 2-A in the first place.
 
Phoenks said:
@ActuallySpaceMan42 @DarkDragonMedeus calling y'all back here because the reasoning for 2-A absolutely doesn't fly lol.

The Dimensional Gap is just a spaceless, timeless void that surrounds all the DxD planes. There is not an infinite amount of space-times inside of it.

The reasoning used to argue 2-A was that it is "infinite on a 4D scale" which is not even 2-A in the first place.
Click to expand...
I debunked your points, but instead of backing them up with meaningful evidence, you try to call staff for help even though the CRT was accepted.

Literally proved you wrong and you ignored it, even though you mostly made claims without any evidence. I agree to the space-times thing as I never made the claim.

Well I see this situation as having two possibilities, I mean, if I was wrong, I don't think the changes would've been accepted in the first place. So either the staff and all of the others who agreed were incorrect and in the case of the staff, didn't do their job correctly, or you're wrong and I was right. And based on the evidence in my favor (you being unable to back up your claims with any evidence, the way in which you approached the topic, and the amount of evidence I used and the amount of people who agree), I'd say the latter is most likely.

Edit: (Again, not trying to be rude, and I apologize if I come off that way, however your arguments are very flawed, disingenuous, and fallacious. Aside from the Ophis statement before, if the DG really were spaceless, Issei wouldn't be able to move within it, the Land of Oz who's main gimmick is its areas based on different directions (North, South, East, West), wouldn't exist, when characters create "holes" or "tears" in space (Volume 14 and 19 as examples), every instance of them seeing the DG on the other side would be invalid. In regards to the timeless thing, Rias getting to the DG before Issei and the others contradicts this impying time had passed, there's Ophis' (Most knowledgeable on the DG) statement of several days passing, and the characters moving within it would be granted infinite speed when in series, it takes hours to fly between countries and characters like Issei still abide by the regular rules of time (like for the Boost ability). It isn't a void, people, islands, rocks, robots all exist within it which would disqualify it from being a "void", as the only thing making it a void is it's official english translation name, and assuming the name is literal would be a fallacy. Anyone with a detailed amount of knowledge on the verse could pick apart your argument easily, which is why I believe you're very incorrect.
 
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I'm calling staff cause I'd rather not have to make a petty downgrade thread after this.

And I don't want to further argue with you because the main issue is that you aren't understanding the standards for Tier 2. So the argument isn't going anywhere.

I already explained to you why this doesn't work for 2-A. You are disagreeing with wiki standards at this point.

Either prove that the Dimensional Gap contains infinite space-times or concede.


And yes I am saying the staff did not do their jobs correctly. I especially don't think this should've been applied after 2 staff votes given that this is a massive, higher-D upgrade you are proposing for a verse that originally capped at 5-B. That's ridiculous.
 
Phoenks said:
And I don't want to further argue with you because the main issue is that you aren't understanding the standards for Tier 2. So the argument isn't going anywhere.

I already explained to you why this doesn't work for 2-A. You are disagreeing with wiki standards at this point.

Either prove that the Dimensional Gap contains infinite space-times or concede.


And yes I am saying the staff did not do their jobs correctly. I especially don't think this should've been applied after 2 staff votes given that this is a massive, higher-D upgrade you are proposing for a verse that originally capped at 5-B. That's ridiculous.
Click to expand...
I'd disagree for reasons I mentioned before.

Not really.

Unnecessary

Just the cosmology which for most verses is commonly at a 3-A standard. 2 votes is all that's necessary according to the rules. I don't see how outdated AP ratings are important in a discussion about cosmology, implying it holds any value to the discussion is ridiculous.

Also I edited my previous post while you were sending this, may want to check it as it backs up my points even more.
 
Phoenks said:
And yes I am saying the staff did not do their jobs correctly. I especially don't think this should've been applied after 2 staff votes given that this is a massive, higher-D upgrade you are proposing for a verse that originally capped at 5-B. That's ridiculous.
Click to expand...
A bit of a stupid reason given it says that in the rules 2 staff agreements are required for Tier 2 threads, and especially since the verse "Capped at 5-B" because that was all the content that as available at the moment, this is no different from any other upgrade anyway.
 
MasqueTLDF said:
I'd disagree for reasons I mentioned before.

Not really.

Unnecessary

Just the cosmology which for most verses is commonly at a 3-A standard. 2 votes is all that's necessary according to the rules. I don't see how outdated AP ratings are important in a discussion about cosmology, implying it holds any value to the discussion is ridiculous.

Also I edited my previous post while you were sending this, may want to check it as it backs up my points even more.
Click to expand...
And more specifically in regards to the tiering system, Tier 2 is focused on the fourth dimension correct. "An example of this being 4-dimensional spacetime continuums of universal size," as the standard for Low 2-C explicity states the requirement for the tier is a finite space-time of universal size, multiple of these Low 2-C realms would be 2-C. But as you're just adding finite space-times to advance in tiering, obviously a space above a universe sized space-time (Like how the Dimensional Gap is greater than the Low 2-C Human Realm) like which would already 4D spatially, being infinite in size would mean it is large enough to hypothethically hold an infinite amount of Low 2-C (Finite Space-Times) realms. Thus being the difference between finite 3D + time = finite 4D and infinite 4D. If you want my honest opinion, I think Low 1-C is more accurate however I avoided bringing it because of the tiering system revisions. The Low 2-C definition specifically mentioned "universal size" for a reason and my reasoning is just based on common sense and an extrapolation of information given in the tiering system.

Edit: "A: "In spite of what our intuitions may tell us, destroying or fully affecting multiple infinite-sized multiverses is in fact not better than doing the same to a single infinite multiverse, and thus, not above the "baseline" for 2-A." in this case, the Dimensional Gap would literally fit the description of Infinite Multiverse (Source of quote is the FAQ)
 
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What’s worse is how the statement about the rating games is only affecting the school yet for some odd reason it’s taken out of context about how it also affected space itself yet was never mentioned. Y’all glossed over that
 
BlackeJan said:
What’s worse is how the statement about the rating games is only affecting the school yet for some odd reason it’s taken out of context about how it also affected space itself yet was never mentioned. Y’all glossed over that
Click to expand...
In that particular instance, only the school is replicated. And these statements are only made in the LN whereas the stars scans come from the anime. Logically one should apply to the other and it's unnecessary to prove anyway as there's more evidence proving they're real and none against it. Nice try tho lol.
 
Finally, it is no secret to anyone that the DxD pages in VsBattle are outdated and need a review of several things such as powerscaling, skills and cosmology, when you think about what should be done something you always think that the first thing would be to talk about cosmology, but specifically the nature of the Dimensional Gap
the reason? I'm sure some of you have seen some people talk on certain pages about how DxD has characters that are Universal or Multiversal or Extradimensional or Ourterversal.
I'm sure many thought they were just people exaggerating, but in reality everything has a logic behind it.

he Outerversal Level is based on an interpretation of several things.

1)The structure of the Dimensional Gap:

-We are told that the is the Limit that separates the worlds, serving as a wall between them.

-at the same time it is said that the Dimensional Gap is beyond dimensions

-that distances and directions do not exist in it

-that time manipulation powers do not work on her

This has led many to assume that the Dimensional Gap is an Outerversal structure, the logic is basically as follows:

Assuming that the dimensions spoken of are the worlds of DxD, that means that the Dimensional Gap exists beyond the structure of the worlds as a superior plane, the fact that it is said that distance and directions do not exist in it and that the powers of Manipulation of time does not work within it, it leads to thinking that the Dimensional Gap has no Space or Time and therefore is beyond them.

2) Great Red's effect on the Dimensional Gap

We are told that Great Red is the one who maintains the Balance in the Dimensional Gap, that means that Great Red has the power to affect the Dimensional Gap and if the Gap is an Outerversal Structure, then that would make Great Red an Outerversal being.

3) the Great Red, Trihexa and Issei AxA scale

If Great Red is an Ourterversal being, then Trihexa who is an equivalent to him would also be Ourterverla Level and therefore Issei AxA who is capable of seriously harming Trihexa would be one who can harm Outerversal Level beings.

Now whether that logic is right or wrong is another matter.

And that's what I would like to talk about.

I agree with the size of the DxD worlds (Heaven, Underworld, Human World, Etc.), I feel in doubt regarding the issue of the Rating Game Field

now about the Dimensional Gap.
A while ago I published something where I stealthily talked about the Dimensional Gap to try to get an opinion, I only got 2 opinions but it all ended in that the Dimensional Gap had to be a Low 1-C structure based on "being a space that exists outside of time and regular space, without concepts such as distance, direction and time."
While I believe this interpretation is accurate since I am of the opinion that a space containing X spaces is larger in dimensional terms, personally I prefer to play it safe and that is to go for the lowest option in this case. It would be to scale the Dimensional Gap to what exists within it, that is, the Worlds of DxD, in the Thread I published they agreed that the Worlds of DxD are a multiverse, since the number of universes that form it is less than 1000 that makes them 2-C, therefore the Dimensional Gap would scale to that.
 
Digital_Franz said:
Don't want to spoil the atmosphere but if the dimensional gap is a Low 1-C/Low 1-A structure then the worlds are also Low 1-C/Low 1-A structures? It's entertaining.
Click to expand...
As I don't personally subscribe to the idea of Low 1-A DxD, I can't comment on that but in regards to Low 1-C, Worlds like DxD, ExE, and FxF would be Low 2-C-2-C. Although, their rating would be the same regardless of if the Dimensional Gap was 2-C, 2-A, or Low 1-C.
 
MasqueTLDF said:
As I don't personally subscribe to the idea of Low 1-A DxD, I can't comment on that but in regards to Low 1-C, Worlds like DxD, ExE, and FxF would be Low 2-C-2-C. Although, their rating would be the same regardless of if the Dimensional Gap was 2-C, 2-A, or Low 1-C.
Click to expand...
So that's where the problem comes from.
 
Digital_Franz said:
If the worlds are only Low 2-C/2-C then the dimensional gap cannot be Low 1-C.
Click to expand...
Like I said before, I was of the opinion that Low 1-C was more accurate before the change in the TS. I personally am currently a believer in 2-A which is the reason this thread is about 2-A. The temporal dimensionality and how exactly the timelines worked still isn't completely agreed upon which is why I crossed it out in the blog. My theory at the time would've involved higher time dimensions however (Different Worlds being 3D +1D for Time, and the DG being 4D + 1D for Time), I'm not exactly an expert on temporality and what we know of how the different timelines work varies depending on the translation and I don't currently have access to the raws of the volume.
 
We should discuss Low 1-C / Low 1-A in the main discussion thread, as to not clog this.

Also masque, in order to help Phoenks we may as well just go with the other infinite timeline and whatnot statements, would be better and easier to follow for 2-A
 
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