Dungeons & Dragons revision

[Aparajita]

Based off my blog here.

tl;dr

Ao: High 2-A (Superior to Gruumsh and other Greater Deities)

Speed: Immeasurable (exists beyond the concept of time, existed before the construction of the Multiverse)


The Lady of Pain: At Least 2-A, likely higher (Superior to Vecna by an unknown degree, has constantly been portrayed as above other Greater Deities)

Speed: Infinite, likely Immeasurable (can control her own space time, can repair the Infinite Multiverse and could likely survive in it's absence)


Greater Deities like Gruumsh, Lorelion, and Torm: 2-A (Likely comparable to Vecna)

Speed: Infinite (can easily control their own spacetimes and are vastly superior to the deities of time and space beneath them)


Vecna: 2-A (damaged the Infinite Multiverse) (and will link in the description about the Abyss being infinite, which is something Vecna damaged)

Speed: Infinite, possibly higher (Is greatly above the lesser deities who can control spacetime. Was going to potentially destroy the Multiverse and could survive in it's absence)


Lesser Deities: Low 2-C (can control their own spacetimes)

Speed: Infinite (can control their own spacetimes)


Primordials: Ranging between Low 2-C to 2-A at their peak (comparable to other deities)

Speed: Infinite to Infinite, Likely Higher (Comparable to the Deities)


Exarchs and other characters: Varies greatly.

Speed: Varies greatly.


Furthermore: All of the Majority Deities are constantly at war with each other. Bane, Gruumush, Lolth, Torm, etc.

In their employ, they have deities who are capable of fate manipulation, reality warping, death manipulation, time manipulation, casuality manipulation, conceptual manipulation, and more powers.

And, they have resistence to haxes like Soul, Time, Reality, Absolute Zero, and Erasure.


In Favor: 7 (LoyalServantofInti, DragonmasterXYZ, Celestial Pegasus, Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot, Promstein, Darkanime, Antvasima, Aldrecht)

Against: 1 (Deerest of Lords)

Neutral: 1 (EvilMegaCookie)

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

I agree with this upgrade

 

[Aparajita]

snip

That's linked in the blog. Please, remove it. It's very large.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

Should j inform azzy about this?

 

[Aparajita]

Should j inform azzy about this?

It has been highlighted by The Everlasting. Just takes time. =)

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Looks like we'll have some Royal Knights vs Dungeons and Dragons soon

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Looks alright

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Agreed with pretty much all of this, except it should be noted that the Lady of Pain is likely above most Greater Deities, iirc.

Ao should also probably be "Likely High 2-A" since his power is very vague.

One thing I'm wondering about is how should we rate Bahamut and Tiamat? They are both Lesser Deities, but seem to be a special case, since they are each half of Asgorath, and were able to murderstomp Erek-Hus before he could even celebrate his victory of killing Asgorath only moments earlier.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

I agree with Azzy here.

 

[Promestein]

"Lesser Deities: 2-C (Most can control their own Realm including the Space-Time within their Realm)"

That'd just be Low 2-C?

Seems fine, otherwise.

 

[Aparajita]

Agreed with pretty much all of this, except it should be noted that the Lady of Pain is likely above most Greater Deities

She's above some, granted, but doubtfully above Torm, who is the strongest Greater Deity iirc.

She's on the same tier, in my opinion, as Corelion and Gruumush. She is able to destroy invaders in her Plane (no feat itself), and bar passage to others. Tempus does the same thing to Warrior's Rest and Azmodeus prevents all travel to the Nine Hells with the exception of the First Realm.

Ao should also probably be "Likely High 2-A" since his power is very vague.
Agreed. His "Master" is above by a huge amount, but there is one statement i'd like to bring up.

Ao's Master states, "How fairs your cosmos, Ao?"

Your Cosmos. As in, there are more than 1 Infinite Multiverse in D&D.

 

[Aparajita]

Seems fine, otherwise.

Yes, i apologize. Will fix.

 

[Aparajita]

One thing I'm wondering about is how should we rate Bahamut and Tiamat?

I was thinking about that. I would consider the two of them killing Erek to be an Outlier, as True Form Asgorath was unable to defeat Erek by himself.

If not, then we could consider them 2-B? In between Lesser and Greater?

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

Seems good to me. I think "Likely '''Immeasurable'''" for any deity above Vecna sounds good to me.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with Azathoth and Promestein.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

bump

 

[Antvasima]

There is no need to bump this. I replied 3 hours ago...

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

Well, can an admin please apply these changes to the following profiles

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Gruumsh

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Vecna

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Corellon_Larethia

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/The_Lady_of_Pain_(Dungeons_and_Dragons)

 

[Deerest_of_Lords]

No.

I pretty much made an account here just to highlight stuff that seem like wanking.

D&D is very powerful but you are looking at it wrong.


to start off, D&D isn't a single universe or even multiverse.

Every campaign setting is its own multiverse.

The respect thread you linked in the OP uses Forgotten Realms cosmology but that does not apply to other campaign settings.

Ao is the overgod of forgotten realms, so he controls that multiverse but he has no dominion over Greyhawk, Krynn, Planescape, Oreth or any other campaign setting and therefore should be just 2-B.

furthermore gods aren't all at the same level, even if you look at ones that appear across many campaign settings.

Basically Forgotten Realms' versions of Corellon or Gruumash can be scaled to greater gods of FR like Cyric, Bane, Shar etc.

Their Greyhawk versions cannot, thats a different continuity.

You also have to remember some deities do not even appear in all settings.

Vecna, Pelor and co. don't exist in FR, much like Mystra, Mask and co. doon't exist in Greyhawk.

There does exist a supreme being for all of D&D however, being Ao's master and an avatar of the DM.

I'm not well versed in settings other the FR but scaling between settings is very shaky imo.

so for FR is propose:

At least 2-A for "The Master", likely higher as DnD is a huge Megaverse

2-B for Ao for creating the FR multiverse

High 2-C or low 2-B for Mystra for rearranging the cosmos in spellplague

2-C for greater gods for feats like Shar warping the shadow plane or Asmodeus movig the Abyss

Weaker gods have really few feats so I'll have to dig deeper to find those

Primordials should be a case by case basis, folks like the elemental lords are actually greater deities so should get 2-C, Dendar too, the others are more iffy.

As for the Lady of Pain she is from Planescape as I recall and has been rolled over to Greyhawk (which is core DnD) as well as of 3e. she did repair the multiverse but Vecna isn't her equal. He had to pull off a complex plot to threaten her and isn't multiversal on his own I'm pretty sure so we shouldn't scale any other gods of the setting off of "Die Vecna Die!" Venca.

I'll maybe look for quotes later.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

We don't use the term "megaverse" anymore. and "high 2-C" and "Low 2-B" aren't things.

 

[Deerest_of_Lords]

Call it what you will, the point I'm trying to get across is every setting is its own thing and there are rarely any interactions between them.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

Is ao's master High 2-A or Low 1-C?

 

[Deerest_of_Lords]

Ao's Cosmos, AKA Forgotten Realms which has a few dozens universe-sized planes all drifting in an infinite sea is one of over a trillion others a per that quote.

So make of that what you will.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

2-B?

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

Also, you'll have to take this up with Azathoth. HE is our Dungeons and Dragons expert.

 

[Aparajita]

Planescape is apart of the Realms. Sigil is known as the Center of the Multiverse that Toril is apart of and exists inside the Outlands.


Here is Sigil.
This is 5e cosmology, aka The World Axis, and is the most recent Cosmology in the Realms, post Spellplague.


Greyhawk is it's own alternative reality, never tried to claim otherwise.

I'd also like to state that Greyhawk is *not* seperate from FR in the strictest of sense, as Ed Greenwood himself said in Dragon 344

Otherwise, i think i addressed all of your points.


If someone in my blog is Greyhawk and i am unaware, please state otherwise, because i did a list on FR deities, considering FR is the most widely popular and well-used D&D, especially considering Planescape (which picked up in popularity recently) exists inside FR.


So, let's recap.

Asgorath created the Multiverse. This includes the Abyss, that is infinite in size. This is an Infinite Multiverse.

Ao the Overdeity is vastly superior to Asgorath (High 2-A)

Asgorath is comparable to the other Greater Deities (some, like LoP and Corelion being stronger than Asgorath) (2-A).

Lesser Deities are almost all universal for controling their own space-times (2-C)

Primordials are a case-by-case scenario like Exarchs, but most fall between 2-C and 2-A, with the strongest being able to fight the Greater Deities in the Dawn Wars.

 

[Deerest_of_Lords]

There is a Sigil in (most) every setting.

There is a sigil in Greyhawk too, doesn't make it a part of FR.

FR used World Tree cosmology in 3e, then world axis in 4e post spellplague.

Greyhawk uses Great Wheel module. Planescape also uses Great wheel to my knowledge and has a different pantheon than FR (much like Greyhawk/Oreth)

Yet they both have Sigil. That's because sigil is a sort of "Nexus of all realties" thing.

Vecna originates from Greyhawk, was able to affect Planescape through Sigil, but is no where to be mentioned in FR.


Moreover Asgorath is the multiversal creator only in dragonic myth, which is known to be false since FR multiverse was made by Ao and the Prime Material specifically made by Shar and Selune.

Ed Greenwood has written in his novels of ways to commune and travel between settings, this is true. Such as when Elminster did with Krynn and traveling to the "real world".

D&D is a bunch of connected verses, but they are each their own multiverse in essence.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

bump

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

bump

 

[Antvasima]

Stop bumping. It is probably better to message some staff members that know the franchise instead.

Anyway, personally I have a hard time evaluating whether Aparajita or Deerest make better sense. Staff input would be appreciated.

 

[Aparajita]

Even if we accepted that Planescape is it's own reality (which it's a part of the Multiverse, according to the sources i've found), and decided that FR is it's own Infinite Multiverse (because the Abyss is infinite in size and layers).

That would not *at all* affect the Tiering.

Ao would be High 2-A for being far superior to the other deities by an unknown, huge amount.

The Greater Deities would be 2-A for being vastly superior to Planescape Vecna (who was a Lesser God at the time that Vecna damaged the Infinite Multiverse).

The Lady of Pain would be 2-A for repairing the Infinite Multiverse.

The Lesser Deities would be 2-C for controlling their own Spacetimes within their own Realms.

Primordials and Exarchs would be a case-by-case, with the strongest Primordials able to fight the Greater Deities.


Also, Die Vecna Die! where Vecna damages the Multiverse (and gets his 2-A feat?) Takes place in Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms (via Ravenloft aka Shadowrealm ) and Planescape realms.

Ravenloft is the Demiplane of Dread, a sub-piece of the Plane of Shadow, which exists in Toril (the Forgotten Realms), and Ravenloft is mentioned in The Ghost KIng, which absolutely takes place in the Forgotten Realms.

Villian's Lorebook talks about Ravenloft (aka Shadowrealm), and is most definately Forgotten Realms.


So, either way, even if we consider Planescape to be not a part of Forgotten Realms (which there is no evidence AFAIK that states this), Vecna still affected the Forgotten Realms Infinite Multiverse, and thus, is scalable to their deities.


Furthermore, I keep seeing the same arguments being stated after i have already explained them. I will not be replying to the thread @Deerest's comments anymore, unless new material is brought up.

 

[Deerest_of_Lords]

Vecna was no lesser god at the time of "Die Vecna Die!"

he was already amped to greater god by stealing the power of another god by the time he arrived in planescape, and required further machinations to achieve what he did.

and this is solely from reading synopsis of the module and not delving into details.

Moreover this is exactly the issue I was attempting to stress earlier, scaling between dieties of different settings is inherently flawed. Its like scaling back and forth between anime and manga versions of a series.

Greater deities in FR have shown 2-C level power throught feats and thats about it as far as I know.

As for ravenloft, according to the description of the setting:

"he magical mists of Ravenloft could appear anywhere in the Dungeons & Dragons universe, drawing evil-doers (or player characters) into the Ravenloft setting. One exception is the 'phlogiston' of the Spelljammer setting"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ravenloft

meaning the demi-plane of Ravenloft can connet to pretty much anything and isn't restricted to, or inherently a part of FR.

 

[Aparajita]

According to Die Vecna Die!, Vecna was given the rank of lesser deity throughout the campaign.
So.

And that's the furthest he obtains, according to FR and Ravenloft wikias.


Yes. Ravenloft *can* exist inside of the FR. I've stated my claims.

Please provide evidence that Ravenloft was not connected to Forgotten Realms during the events of Die Vecna Die!


Furthermore, A Guide to the Etheral Plane , states that Ravenloft, Planescape, and Forgotten Realms are all connected.

 

[EvilMegaCookie]

Where does the Immeasurable speed stat come from?

Edit: Actually, do we even know if Deities have any speed feats whatsoever? I am a bit iffy about them gaining Infinite out of nowhere.

Wouldn't be surprised if they had a skill that allowed them to do that though.

 

[Aparajita]

Where does the Immeasurable speed stat come from?

Immeasurable for Ao for existing outside the confines of Space and Time (before the Multiverse, and time, was created.)

Other deities like Lolth and etc Infinite for controlling their own space-times within their Realms.

Maybe the other deities should get "Unknown, Infinite in their own Realms" ?

 

[EvilMegaCookie]

Well, I am not really sure if you become Infinite in speed just by controlling your own universe. Then again, they can adjust the flow of time and the like, no?

So I wouldn't be surprised if they could speed up ad infinitum via speeding up their personal time or something. But still, kinda iffy about giving anyone except for Ao immeasurable/infinite speed.

Ao I can understand since he exists outside of the multiverse.

 

[Aparajita]

Well, I am not really sure if you become Infinite in speed just by controlling your own universe. Then again, they can adjust the flow of time and the like, no?

Lolth was able to do it in the Demonweb Pits (Pre-Greater Deity Status) and Tempus is able to rewrite anything his lesser deities do in his domain, so it's safe to assume they can.

 

[Deerest_of_Lords]

"Vecna has absorbed the essence of luz, and he is on his way to full godly ascension. Drawing on knowledge imparted by the Serpent and energized by his growing divinity, Vecna contorts the misty fabric of Ravenloft itself, using it to bridge the gap between the prison plane and the City of Doors. Bypassing wards set by a power equal to the Serpent, Vecna the Divine arrives in Sigil despite the ban against gods, which has stood for time immemorial."

https://dnd.rem.uz/Advanced D&D (unsorted)/Die Vecna Die.pdf

from page 122.

Basically Venca absorbs another demigod named Iuz to ascend to a greater god (stated in page 149) and then utilizes the help of the Serpent to bypass the Lady's barriers and enter Sigil. The serpent being the multiversal force of magic and the Lady's equal from what I gathered.

And as I stated before Ravenloft is its own setting and can connent anywhere outside of one specific area in the Spelljammer series. You have brought no evidence to suggest its an integral part of any other verse.

I do believe however that Ravenloft can be considered a universe, and Vecna did wrap it after his ascension, so that would merit 2-C rating for greater gods in Greyhawk/Planescape too.

 

[Aparajita]

When I was working on third and fourth there was this dialogue of "Should we just embrace The Realms as the core setting?" And we were always very wary of a big backlash. Honestly people have complained, but I think when you look at how we handled the playtest, and they'll see as we roll out the core rulebooks and Tyranny of Dragons that The Realms elements are strong enough that if you like The Realms or if you don't have a setting they kind of fill in the blanks and really bring the adventure to life, but one of the strengths of The Realms is that it's so diverse that we're not really cancelling anything out but get access to things like the Cult of the Dragon. Using The Realms lets us have a very flavorful villain group with an ongoing story that we can use in the future. If you look at like Red Hand of Doom, one of the big 3rd Edition adventures that went over very well, now that adventure's published we can't really use that adventure again because it didn't have a home in D&D. It doesn't really fit into a larger world. Using The Realms let us have that.

(Mike Mearls , Escapist Magazine) is one of the D&D Lead Designers. 5E is the Forgotten Realms, with The Realms as the Core Setting.

 

[Aparajita]

And as I stated before Ravenloft is its own setting and can connent anywhere outside of one specific area in the Spelljammer series. You have brought no evidence to suggest its an integral part of any other verse.

But i have stated that Sigil (and Planescape by extension of Sigil being it's core setting) exists inside the Forgotten Realms. Yes, Planescape is it's own alternative universe, no one is denying it. But it's right there, in the middle of the Forgotten Realms, connected to it like everything else.

That's 5e.


This is going around in circles. I have evidence, right here, stating that Planescape and Forgotten Realms are connected, that when Vecna threatened the Multiverse, he threatened the Forgotten Realms as well.
They're scalable.