Dungeons & Dragons revision

[Aparajita]

This is my final reply on the topic, i don't care to continue this around in circles bullshit.

D&D is a very large verse that should be treated as composite due to it's size, complexity, and the sheer amount of authors, designers, and creators it has had throughout the 40 years of it's existence.


Edit: Holy shit, after looking at our profiles, we *already* consider D&D to be composite, with Gruumush scaling Vecna. Edited the OP.

 

[Promestein]

I agree with Aparajita.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

I agree with him as well.

 

[Aldrecht]

Gonna go with aparajita on this one

 

[Antvasima]

I also think that Aparajita seems to make sense.

However, Deerest seemed to make a good point about Vecna possibly ascending beyond a lesser god position.

 

[Aparajita]

However, Deerest seemed to make a good point about Vecna possibly ascending beyond a lesser god position.

Agreed. I have edited the OP to change the tiering. It hasn't been changed by much, admittedly.

Gruumsh and the others are likely comparable to Vecna, with Ao still being Supremely above deities like Gruumsh.

However, the Lady of Pain might be stronger than the standard Greater Deity, as she had no problem whatsoever repairing the infinite multiverse, and has prevented deities from entering Sigil in the past.

I'd likely say she's in the same category as Ao, but that's just speculation.

Here is the tiering if it's accepted.


Ao: High 2-A (Superior to Gruumsh and other Greater Deities)

The Lady of Pain: At Least 2-A, likely higher (Superior to Vecna by an unknown degree, has constantly been portrayed as above other Greater Deities)

Greater Deities like Gruumsh, Lorelion, and Torm: 2-A (Likely comparable to Vecna)

Vecna: 2-A (damaged the Infinite Multiverse) (and will link in the description about the Abyss being infinite, which is something Vecna damaged)

Lesser Deities: Low 2-C (can control their own spacetimes)

Primordials: Ranging between Low 2-C to 2-A at their peak (comparable to other deities)

Exarchs and other characters: Varies greatly.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that seems reasonable. You can change the profiles, if you wish.

 

[Antvasima]

Which are the pages that need to be temporarily unlocked?

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

Gruumsh, Vecna, The Lady of Pain, and Corellon Larethian.

 

[Kyo_Zero]

Speed: Infinite to Infinite, Likely Higher (Comparable to the Deities)

I have several questions

 

[EvilMegaCookie]

I still feel like we are kinda jumping the gun with the speed ratings.

And isn't Lady Of Pain treated in the same manner as Ao? What with having no stats. But that is game mechanics so... YEAH. *shrugs*

 

[Antvasima]

I have unlocked the pages.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

Can I make the edits, or would you prefer for Aparajita to do it?

 

[Antvasima]

Aparajita is probably better suited for this.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

Okay then.

 

[Aparajita]

Please tell me of your fears and feelings and i'll try my best to resolve them.

The Lady of Pain has consistently been shown to being stronger than your average Greater Deity, but to an unknown extent.

@Kyo Zero, please state your questions.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

Aparajita can you make the changes please?

 

[Antvasima]

That would be appreciated, yes.

 

[EvilMegaCookie]

Please tell me of your fears and feelings and i'll try my best to resolve them.
The Lady of Pain has consistently been shown to being stronger than your average Greater Deity, but to an unknown extent.

@Kyo Zero, please state your questions.

Everything else I am fine with except for the speed which I feel hasn't gotten a proper reason except for Ao.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree that giving everybody immeasurable or infinite speeds seems very uncertain, yes.

 

[Aparajita]

Everything else I am fine with except for the speed which I feel hasn't gotten a proper reason except for Ao.

Okay. Let me explain how Realms work in the Planes of Existence. We'll take Celestia, the realm of Torm and Moradin.

Torm is the Greater Deity who rules over Celestia, and he makes the absolute decisions there. Like Tempus in the Warrior's Rest, if Torm wanted, he could erase everything from Celestia.

In each of the other Realms (which there is at least 7, 1 of which is not accessable by anyone except for those who become one with Celestia), are controlled by the deities who rule them.

In those Realms, they have absolute power, and can control how time works in their own Realms.


In the Legend of Drizzt, Errtu meets Lolth in the Demonweb Pits, her own Realm, and curses how it's always night in her domain, while it's daytime in his own domain in the Abyss, because Lolth wishes it to be.


If this is not justified enough, the Greater Deities are immensely above the Time Deities who are beneath them and serve them directly.


If that is not enough, then i am content with Unknown as their Speed Ratings.

 

[Aparajita]

I also found this calculation (but this would be in game mechanics, so i'm not sure)

Round 1: Activate Belt of Battle to cast Footsteps of the Divine(Fharlaghn) as a Swift Action, expending 7 Turn Undead attempts to Persist the spell via Divine Metamagic and then Extending it via Lesser Metamagic Rod of Extend. Between Extend Spell, Suel Arcanamach and Spellcarved Soldier, Footsteps of the Divine lasts for 4 days.

Chuck drops the rod as a free action, drawing a scroll of Favor of the Martyr as a move action and as a Standard Action he makes the DC 27 UMD check to cast the spell from the scroll. He succeeds on a 1.

Max Turnage casts Owl's Wisdom on Chuck.

Round 2: Chuck chooses to "employ a burst of truly inhuman speed" to gain +10ft to his land speed(in addition to the +50 ft from selecting Farlanghn) for every round remaining in the spell's duration. There are 4 days minus 1 round remaining in the duration, so Chuck gets +576,990 ft bonus to his land speed, for a total land speed of 576,070 ft. His Jump check is +230,416. That's a 43 mile long jump.

As a move action, Chuck draws his Scroll of Greater Visage of the Deity from his pack. Thanks to the spell being on the Cleric list and having a Wisdom of 19, all he has to do is make a DC 18 Caster Level check to activate the scroll. His caster level for Cleric spells is 9. Too bad he can't just take 10. Oh wait, yes he can thanks to Arcane Mastery! So by taking 10, he succeeds on the check and casts Greater Visage of the Deity as his Standard Action gaining +4 Charisma and a fly speed of twice his land speed, or 1,152,140 ft.

As a swift action he activates his belt of battle to get a move action, which is used to draw his Staff of Greater Celerity.

He then proceeds via Divine Impetus for 1,104 swift actions which translate to Full-Round actions from the Staff of Greater Celerity. Favor of the Martyr protects Chuck from the nasty side effect of daze. How he uses those actions depends on what he wants to do.

Footsteps of the divine says you can expend the spell to add "...an additional +10 feet to your speed per round remaining in the spell's duration." Therefore, you gain a bonus of 10 x 10 x 60 x 24, or 144,000 ft/round. Times FIVE for the Run feat gives 720,000 ft/round, or 120,000 ft/sec.

120,000 ft/s is 36576 m/s or Mach 106, Massively Hypersonic.

So, "Unknown, at least Massively Hypersonic, likely far higher" ?

 

[Antvasima]

Well, if the time deities, and all above them, can stop all time, while being able to move themselves, then that counts as infinite speed as far as I am aware.

 

[Kyo_Zero]

@Kyo Zero, please state your questions.

How exactly is infinite to infinite a valid measurement? Is one infinite supposed to be more infinite than the other? Is it just simply possible to be faster than infinite? I thought the whole point was that you couldn't go beyond infinite, I mean, infinity times infinity is still just infinity, and by saying there's a higher infinity contradicts the previous infinity, it's just a never ending cycle of infinity.

And second, how exactly can you be higher than infinite without just simply existing everywhere at once? At which point you're pretty much omnipresent, which isn't so much speed in terms of being higher than infinity, more so a case of "How can you outrun me when I am already here", so you're either omnipresent or you're not, so saying infinite, likely higher could be worded better as just simply "Speed: Infinite, likely Omnipresent". Unless it's not implied they're omnipresent, in this case you're not faster than infinity because there is no such speed, you have essentially reached the fastest speed you can have without simply existing everywhere.

TLDR; I either have a lack of understanding of what exactly this means or you just stated the same thing 3 times in a row with different words.

 

[Antvasima]

You should read our various important section/category pages, linked at the first page, particularly Higher-Dimensional Manipulation.

 

[Aparajita]

TLDR; I either have a lack of understanding of what exactly this means or you just stated the same thing 3 times in a row with different words.

Well, let me clarify, are you asking in response for AP or Speed?

@Staff, i would like some kind of confirmation that i may begin with the upgrades.

 

[Antvasima]

You can begin, yes. I unlocked the pages for you some time ago.

 

[Aparajita]

Should be done.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thanks. I will lock them again.

 

[Lina_Shields]

@Aparajita: Just wondering if all the characters that are rated 2-A (Vecna, Greater Deitiea, Lady of Pain) are considered 3-Dimensional, or 4-Dimensional. If they are considered 4-Dimensional/beyond 3-D space-time, wouldn't it be correct for their speed to be Immeasurable rather than Infinite? Particularly Vecna who couls probably survive the absence of the entire multiverse.

Unless I am missing something...

 

[Antvasima]

Well, to quote:

"Immeasurable (Higher-dimensional entities beyond linear time and 3-D distance, and its' concepts of speed. However, take note that higher order dimensional nature does not automatically guarantee this. The speed statistic should be listed as "Immeasurable" only if a character is completely transcendental to the distance, time, and causality of a normal universal continuum.)"

In addition, The living tribunal1 is eventually going to propose a revision in which we change this to characters that encompass more than one dimension of time.

 

[Aparajita]

@Lina, i am not sure and low-balled it to be safe.

The Greater Deities (Like Torm, who i use as my most constant example), controls at least 6 different Realms. Tempus, it was stated, can erase anything that his Lesser Deities do inside his Plane of Existence (Warrior's Rest, that contains 5 Realms iirc, not looking it up atm so don't quote me).

Greater Deities like Torm should be able to control the space-times of each realm, but i am unsure if they can do it all at once, hince the "Likely Infinite."

The only ones i am certain of is Ao the Overdeity (who doesn't have a page), the Lady of Pain (for likely surviving the destruction of Sigil and the Multiverse that would have died with it), and possibly Vecna, for the same reason as the Lady of Pain.

 

[Kyo_Zero]

TLDR; I either have a lack of understanding of what exactly this means or you just stated the same thing 3 times in a row with different words.

Well, let me clarify, are you asking in response for AP or Speed?
@Staff, i would like some kind of confirmation that i may begin with the upgrades.

This would be referring to the speed of the primordials

 

[Aparajita]

This would be referring to the speed of the primordials

Oh, lmao, that's a typo.