Dumb Musashi Question

[Hasty12345]

I know this has probably been answered and debunked many many times, but I don't understand any of the explanations, so some indulgence and help would be appreciated.

I was reading this here:

miyamoto-musashi | CHALDEAの記録

chaldea.tmdict.com

And under the Noble Phantasm section, it sounds like Musashi's NP should scale to the Root:

So why don't these mean here NP scale to the Root?

Rokudou Gorin – Kurikara Tenshou.
A sword-roaring battou. Still wielding two swords, she takes a firm stance and:
Lesser Celestial Thrust… then after overpowering the opponent with her swords’ energy to damage their spirit;
Greater Celestial Phenomenon… Musashi lets out her final blow with all her might.
The Niou appearing behind her is just a side-effect of her swords’ pressure.
It can be considered an embodiment of the sword of “Zero”, the concept of “Void” Musashi has yet to master.
It’s called an Anti-Unit Noble Phantasm, but it is actually an Anti-Fate Noble Phantasm.
A Buddha sword that wards off all forms of untimely deaths, karmic damage, curses and tragedies in a single sweep.
“After you scraped off something’s existence to the extreme, to the point you could say it no longer has any, “something” still remains.”
The extreme “One” they say “no two of” can be found.
The “Zero” that is beyond it… the concept of “ ”.

If one were to ask what is the Niten Ichi-ryuu, the answer would be none other than Musashi Miyamoto himself.
The father called himself “Munisai” (with the “Muni” part meaning “no two of”), so the son coined the term Niten Ichi (meaning “two heavens into one”), containing a direct antithesis and a roundabout agreement to his father.
Musashi put high emphasis on the Buddhist concept of “Void”.
Void is nihil, emptiness, and 0.
The concept of “ ”. The very concept that “the ‘nothing’ exists” is 0, and is void.
It other words, beyond the “1”, to which there is “no two of”, there is 0.
The path to reach it is none other than the Niten Ichi-ryuu. Through the sword, one can reach the understanding necessary to embody the “Void”… Zen and the Sword As One is, without a doubt, exactly what Musashi aimed for.

However, the concept of “Void” is remarkably difficult to understand. Even 2000 years after its discovery, humanity still has not fully comprehended it.
(It actually has not been much more than 300 years since humanity managed to perfectly understand the number 0.)
Therefore, when people talk about the “Void”, even many Zen priests will strongly deny that it is “something that already exists”.
One takes the concepts, objects and phenomena in front of them and keeps completely shredding them up, scraping them off and erasing their existence as much as possible.
Then, after one scraped off something’s existence to the extremes, to the point one could say it no longer has any, “something” still remains. That is what they believe to be “Void”.
(Pursuing the concept of Void also requires “confrontation” aside from just “denial”, but we will omit that part.)

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

Short answer: the Zero Musashi that we see for 99.9% of the game hasn't actually reached this level yet. Musashi only really ever reaches " " in LB 5.5, after which she gets deleted from all layers of existence so she has no feats for now.

I can give a longer answer if you want. After I sleep.

 

[Hasty12345]

the Zero Musashi that we see for 99.9% of the game hasn't actually reached this level yet. Musashi only really ever reaches " " in LB 5.5, after which she gets deleted from all layers of existence so she has no feats for now.

So it's not that this "state" doesn't scale to the Root, it's more Musashi hasn't/doesn't reach it to that level (and the 1 time she did she's poof'ed)?

And yeah, the long explanation whenever you get time would be great

 

[Paul_Frank]

There was a thread on this before

Tl;Dr is Musashi's thing isn't the root according to Nasu, he was asked in an interview if it meant the root/heaven and his response was "no, it has nothing to do with the root"

Q: Well since we are talking about her, I want to hear bout Miyamoto Musashi. During Fate/Stay Night, there was a phrase that "Whether a path to the future or path to the past, the place it reaches its Zero" type of phrase was said in it.
Does this mean Musashi's Empty Space/Kyu = Zero concept means something similar to the Root

Nasu: No, not at all actually. When I was studying the person Miyamoto Musashi historically, I found out that tale of Musashi was happening around the same period as when the concept of "Mu" from Buddhism entered into Japan recently. And thinking about it, I thought it was impressive that Musashi's Father claimed to be a Muise? during that era. And as I saw myself deeper into that side of history,
I felt that in "FGO" , the place female Musashi must reach as her peak must be "Cutting that which has no form". And around that time, as I was doing Musashi's Trial Quest, I was also making plans for FGO Part 2, so I was studying info on Greece and the concept of Chaos.

And at that moment, I thought, well this is something Musashi has to cut, as Muramasa mentioned, "One you are able to cut that which has no form, you show your true essence". Many different creative material makes Miyamoto Musashi appear in it, but we thought that if we are to put in Musashi, that we have to put her inside the story with a meaning to her in the story. And I thought that Musashi would have meaning if she at the end cuts through the Empty Space/Kyou, and accomplishes all things and disappears beyond the zero. And she was character that was made with that in mind, and we put in a lot of small nods to this throughout the game.
So this isn't something that is related to the Root of All Magic or etc like that.

 

[Loyd]

https://vsbattles.com/threads/1a-musashi-np.115728/ this was the thread where it was rejected if you wanted more clarity.

 

[Hasty12345]

There was a thread on this before

Tl;Dr is Musashi's thing isn't the root according to Nasu, he was asked in an interview if it meant the root/heaven and his response was "no, it has nothing to do with the root"

Hmm, that contradicts what Crimson said, can I get a source on that statement (preferably the Japanese as well)?

 

[Paul_Frank]

【FGO】奈須きのこ氏＆武内崇氏が語る5年目、そして6年目の『FGO』。オリュンポス終了までで第2部はまだ半分の進行度 | ゲーム・エンタメ最新情報のファミ通.com

『Fate』シリーズの生みの親である奈須きのこ氏、武内崇氏へのインタビューを敢行。スマホゲーム『Fate/Grand Order』（FGO）5周年の裏側や、第2部 第5章の詳報を語っていただいた。

www.famitsu.com

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Hmm, that contradicts what Crimson said, can I get a source on that statement (preferably the Japanese as well)?

Not necessarily as in one of the earlier statements about the nothingness was later clarified to separate it from the root.

「　」 [Others]
If you really wished to pronounce this term, call it "Kara".
Its meaning varied depending on each individual's understanding. To put it in simple terms, it was the Spiral of Origin.
However, since the Spiral of Origin was called the Spiral of Origin, it was no longer ' '.
To properly express this term was a source of headache during the production of the drama CDs.
「　」【―――】【その他】
仮《かり》に読み方をつけるとしたら、から。
受け取り方は人それぞれ。端的に分かりやすくいうのなら、根源の渦。
が、根源の渦は根源の渦、という名前がある為、やはり「　」とは別物である。
これをどう台詞《せ り ふ》にしてもらうかがドラマＣＤ時での悩みのタネだった。

 

[Hasty12345]

【FGO】奈須きのこ氏＆武内崇氏が語る5年目、そして6年目の『FGO』。オリュンポス終了までで第2部はまだ半分の進行度 | ゲーム・エンタメ最新情報のファミ通.com

『Fate』シリーズの生みの親である奈須きのこ氏、武内崇氏へのインタビューを敢行。スマホゲーム『Fate/Grand Order』（FGO）5周年の裏側や、第2部 第5章の詳報を語っていただいた。

www.famitsu.com

Thank you

Not necessarily as in one of the earlier statements about the nothingness was later clarified to separate it from the root.

Oh I meant Crimson implies that there exists a point in time when Musashi would scale to the Root, which contradicts Frank saying Musashi has nothing to do with the Root.

「　」 [Others]
If you really wished to pronounce this term, call it "Kara".
Its meaning varied depending on each individual's understanding. To put it in simple terms, it was the Spiral of Origin.
However, since the Spiral of Origin was called the Spiral of Origin, it was no longer ' '.
To properly express this term was a source of headache during the production of the drama CDs.
「　」【―――】【その他】
仮《かり》に読み方をつけるとしたら、から。
受け取り方は人それぞれ。端的に分かりやすくいうのなら、根源の渦。
が、根源の渦は根源の渦、という名前がある為、やはり「　」とは別物である。
これをどう台詞《せ り ふ》にしてもらうかがドラマＣＤ時での悩みのタネだった。

This is a very confusing topic

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Thank you

Oh I meant Crimson implies that there exists a point in time when Musashi would scale to the Root, which contradicts Frank saying Musashi has nothing to do with the Root.


This is a very confusing topic

Crimson used the ‘ ‘ / “ “ and that means it is no longer the root as it used to been called that.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Short answer: the Zero Musashi that we see for 99.9% of the game hasn't actually reached this level yet. Musashi only really ever reaches " " in LB 5.5, after which she gets deleted from all layers of existence so she has no feats for now.

I can give a longer answer if you want. After I sleep.

Just as a reminder, that I not sure if the nothingness was ever been Tier 1 to being quite frank with you.

 

[Paul_Frank]

It takes a pretty hyper specific interpretation to assume Nasu only meant "no its not the root, but it's still kara" despite also talking about empty space during the answer to the question and having multiple names used during the question and answer to really hammer it home. (The interviewer uses Heaven/Sora as well during the question, with that part being the "deeper" part mentioned in Mahou in any case)

 

[HammerStrikes219]

It takes a pretty hyper specific interpretation to assume Nasu only meant "no its not the root, but it's still kara" despite also talking about empty space during the answer to the question and having multiple names used during the question and answer to really hammer it home. (The interviewer uses Heaven/Sora as well during the question, with that part being the "deeper" part mentioned in Mahou in any case)

Speaking of Empty Space, I gonna been honest with you as have there any mentions of empty space being connected to the root or has it not been the case?

Also did they even use the “ “ in connection to Empty Space?

Edit: Also it is a statement from the TM Wiki they decided to separate “ “ from the spiral of origins/the root in the drama CDs which is stated here I do like to say that.

 

[Hasty12345]

In the 1-A thread, wasn't Kara equivocated to the Root?

https://vsbattles.com/threads/nasuverse-mega-crt-part-1-1-a-root.113096/

"The Root/Swirl of Origin/Akasha/Heaven/Kara/Source of many headaches is a 1-A power beyond everything in the Nasuverse. However, those whose hax scales to it do exist." <- Conclusion section.

Also petition to change the Root's profile to "Source of all Headaches" anyone?

 

[HammerStrikes219]

In the 1-A thread, wasn't Kara equivocated to the Root?

https://vsbattles.com/threads/nasuverse-mega-crt-part-1-1-a-root.113096/

"The Root/Swirl of Origin/Akasha/Heaven/Kara/Source of many headaches is a 1-A power beyond everything in the Nasuverse. However, those whose hax scales to it do exist." <- Conclusion section.

Also petition to change the Root's profile to "Source of all Headaches" anyone?

Yeah as it is a pain.

「　」 [Others]
If you really wished to pronounce this term, call it "Kara".
Its meaning varied depending on each individual's understanding. To put it in simple terms, it was the Spiral of Origin.
However, since the Spiral of Origin was called the Spiral of Origin, it was no longer ' '.
To properly express this term was a source of headache during the production of the drama CDs

Also Paul, I also do recall you technically using your own interpretations with the information I used regarding that specific thing.

 

[Paul_Frank]

In the 1-A thread, wasn't Kara equivocated to the Root?

https://vsbattles.com/threads/nasuverse-mega-crt-part-1-1-a-root.113096/

"The Root/Swirl of Origin/Akasha/Heaven/Kara/Source of many headaches is a 1-A power beyond everything in the Nasuverse. However, those whose hax scales to it do exist." <- Conclusion section.

Also petition to change the Root's profile to "Source of all Headaches" anyone?

Yes Kara is the root

Speaking of Empty Space, I gonna been honest with you as have there any mentions of empty space being connected to the root or has it not been the case?

Also did they even use the “ “ in connection to Empty Space?

Edit: Also it is a statement from the TM Wiki they decided to separate “ “ from the spiral of origins/the root in the drama CDs which is stated here I do like to say that.

Empty Space has usually been connected to the root, empty space as in 「」. Just in this case it explicitly isn't.

They're technically different in that Sora/Root/Akasha/Vortex of Radix, all that stuff are just names to attempt to describe 「」, which can't be described. So you'll almost never see it referred to as 「」

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Also

Empty Space has usually been connected to the root, empty space as in 「」. Just in this case it explicitly isn't.

They're technically different in that Sora/Root/Akasha/Vortex of Radix, all that stuff are just names to attempt to describe 「」, which can't be described.

I will been honest with you as it is from the Kara no Kyoukai Special Pamphlet - Encyclopedia: 「　」 [Others], p.028-029

Which kinda puts it into question.

 

[Paul_Frank]

Puts what into question

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Puts what into question

The “ “ being separated from the root in terms of being described. Other than that, I not sure if Kara can been considered the root given in KnK, they decided to do the separation of the root and “ “/Kara during the production of the Drama CDs. Something that does make things rather confusing if anything.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Yes Kara is the root

Correction, was the root.

 

[Paul_Frank]

The “ “ being separated from the root in terms of being described. Other than that, I not sure if Kara can been considered the root given in KnK, they decided to do during the production of the Drama CDs. Something that does make things rather confusing if anything.

It like, explicitly says that though. It says that calling it things differentiates it from the actual 「」, which is because it can't be described. I'm not sure what the point on Kara being considered the root is, its like, evidently another of the many terms for it, regardless of if it came during the cds or the novels.

Correction, was the root.

No, it still is, I'm not sure why it wouldn't be anymore

 

[Hasty12345]

This is making me more confused

Is the current debate whether or not he Root/Swirl of Origin/Akasha/Heaven/Kara are all the same thing, if so, which ones are we saying are/is not the Root?

 

[Paul_Frank]

This is making me more confused

Is the current debate whether or not he Root/Swirl of Origin/Akasha/Heaven/Kara are all the same thing, if so, which ones are we saying are/is not the Root?

Idk what the current debate is. In any case they're all the root, they're just things used to describe the root, so due to this they technically aren't the root (because you can't give a name to/describe it), but for all intents and purposes when someone in verse or in an interview needs to talk about it, they're all interchangeable.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

It like, explicitly says that though. It says that calling it things differentiates it from the actual 「」, which is because it can't be described. I'm not sure what the point on Kara being considered the root is, its like, evidently another of the many terms for it, regardless of if it came during the cds or the novels.


No, it still is, I'm not sure why it wouldn't be anymore

Kara/ “ “ was used to formerly describe the swirl of origins and I think we will need to clarify whatever or not Kara was used again after KnK to actually described the root as this is assuming nothingness = root which at the very least, it has a connection to the Root in a cosmological sense as the root is just being called root rather than “ “ part as we can not just assume Kara is being described to being the root for that matter after KnK.

In any case, I think the OP is answered for that matter.

 

[Hasty12345]

In any case, I think the OP is answered for that matter.

I'm more confused now then I was when I asked actually.


I'd like to wait for Crimson's "long answer" before this is closed however.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

I'm more confused now then I was when I asked actually.


I'd like to wait for Crimson's "long answer" before this is closed however.

Yeah and I made some corrections to say the least.

 

[Paul_Frank]

Kara/ “ “ was used to formerly describe the swirl of origins and I think we will need to clarify whatever or not Kara was used again after KnK to actually described the root as this is assuming nothingness = root which at the very least, it has a connection to the Root in a cosmological sense as the root is just being called root rather than “ “ part as we can not just assume Kara is being described to being the root for that matter after KnK.

In any case, I think the OP is answered for that matter.

See the issue is with assuming it was "formerly" used to describe it, as if it suddenly doesn't describe it now, it still is a description for it, it's just not used as much as the 70 other names because well, it's easier to use a normal name to describe it, rather than dive into the whole explanation that is described as "a source of headache".

Tsukihime's dictionary technically used Kara to describe it as well, by saying to just check KnK for information on it (it doesn't say Kara itself, but it's entry for the root is just a message to look at KnK's description, which is the Kara one)

Aa for the part about us not being able to assume Kara means root post KnK, I'm not really sure why not, unless there's reason to think otherwise, it's not like Kara is something spammed everywhere in Nasu, and it is an established term for the Root. Saying we can't assume Kara means root is like saying we can't assume Spiral of the Origin, or Akasha means Root, when that's clearly not the case. You'd just assume the names to refer to the root unless there's reason to assume it doesn't, such as a direct statement in the Musashi case.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

I'm not really sure why not, unless there's reason to think otherwise, it's not like Kara is something spammed everywhere in Nasu, and it is an established term for the Root. Saying we can't assume Kara means root is like saying we can't assume Spiral of the Origin, or Akasha means Root, when that's clearly not the case.

Because the Akasha and Spiral of the Root is referring to the root and that can been a false equivalence since you did say it yourself that Kara was never mentioned again which is At least around after KnK or something. Even now, the Root is being described as the root and I think “ “ means just the nothingness given the statement came from a KnK encyclopedia to say the least.

However, other than that, I will just say “disagree to agree” given our stance regarding this matter is different to say the least.


Edit:

“Root [Term]
A term that has nothing to do with the story of Tsukihime at all.
For more information, please consult Kara no Kyoukai.
根源【用語】
月姫本編には関係しない。
詳しくは空の境界を”

Anyway, I am getting tired mentally to say the least

 

[TrueKingOfHeroes]

yes, as evidenced by Paul, the nothingness of Musashi does not refer to "The Root", it is a different term but the nothingness is still conceptless.

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

Oh I really was focusing on the fact that Musashi hadn't reached the " " in the first place. Yeah, evidence for weather Musashi's " " is the Root rn is iffy, because while everything points to yes, Nasu just had to be funky like that.

We can't really assume much else now until Musashi comes back.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Oh I really was focusing on the fact that Musashi hadn't reached the " " in the first place. Yeah, evidence for weather Musashi's " " is the Root rn is iffy, because while everything points to yes, Nasu just had to be funky like that.

We can't really assume much else now until Musashi comes back.

Question, if Musashi does come back. Would that make Nasu's interview statement irrelevant or no?

 

[Paul_Frank]

If she actually does anything and has something that makes it actually the root instead of whatever Nasu said

otherwise she just ends up 1-A on her own and the root ends up high 1-A for being above her ezpz