Dragon Ball Upgrades

[Nitro90]

I've disagreed with it before because it's just a more powerful slicing attack. It works on stronger beings due to its powerful and slicing nature, not due to negating durability. Jiren caught it and I think another Moro henchman caught it in the recent manga chapter.

Would Damage Boost work

Also in this thread [[1]] it was generally accepted for Goku to get resistance to BFR can it be added

 

[Dragomer]

The thing about Kienzan just being a strong attack is that we never see Krillin's power level skyrocket while using it unlike all the other attack of that type (Makokansappo and Final Flash or even Kamehameha), it's clearly supposed to be a trick attack.

And slicing attack somehow having the advantage in DB kinda doesn't work with Goku blocking Trunks's sword with a finger and the Cyborgs no selling the sword.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Kiezen and Special Beam Cannon appear to both be attacks with more precision than most typical Ki attacks. It's not really durability negation, but it's similar to how 9-B sniper rifles can be perceived as more deadly than a 9-A rocket launcher. But being somewhat stronger than regular Ki attacks also makes sense.

 

[AKM sama]

Unlike Makankosappo, they never had the scouter when Krillin used Kienzan, so that analogy doesn't hold. In fact, the manga panel shows Krillin charging his kienzan before firing.

 

[Nitro90]

I've disagreed with it before because it's just a more powerful slicing attack. It works on stronger beings due to its powerful and slicing nature, not due to negating durability. Jiren caught it and I think another Moro henchman caught it in the recent manga chapter.

Would Damage Boost work

Also in this thread [[1]] it was generally accepted for Goku to get resistance to BFR can it be added

.

 

[Dragomer]

But that's what i'm trying to say, the special beam cannon has a long charge time, at a hight risk of being dodged and skyrocket the user's power level and isn't homing, the kienzan is homing, has no special charge time and doesn't make Krillin's power level jump while being able to hit VASTLY outside of it's weight class even compared to the special beam cannon, it can't just be a strong ki blast like it or a final flash.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Oh yeah, the Special Beam Cannon being multitudes higher than his regular attacks made sense at least back then. But Krillin's Kienzen is mostly just an attack that cuts people much stronger than him when the character is distracted. Even Vegeta was concerned that it could have cut Nappa's head off. And it did cut off 2nd form Frieza's tail; but that's probably the weakest part of his body and he was distracted. Cell also took 0 damage from Kienzen at point blank.

I think Kienzen should probably be seen as a good precision strike.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Wasn't Cell tanking a Kienzan Anime Filler?

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Wasn't Cell tanking a Kienzan Anime Filler?

Yes it was.

 

[Nitro90]

Bump

 

[Super_Saiyan_God_Julian]

So what exactly are we going to be adding here? As in what has been accepted that is.

 

[ChemistKyle89]

Did Kid Buu have decent durability? Cause Krillin cut him in half (though that may have been filler idk).

 

[Purgy]

Pretty sure Kid Buu's entire encounter with those otherworld fighters is filler

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

But Krillin cut Frieza's tail. And before anyone tells me it's a weak point or whatever, Freeza used his tail to hurt and hold Goku, so it should still be as durable as the rest of his body or at least close to it. So unless Krillin's Kienzan is as powerful as Second form Frieza I still think Limited Durability Negation should be considered imo.

Also cutting power is irrelevant when we're dealing with Ki. Look at Trunk's sword and how easily Goku stopped it with a finger even though it chopped Frieza tot pieces. The way I see it it's a power related thing and the Kienzan has consistently hurt considerably stronger foes.

That's my personal take on the matter.

 

[Purgy]

Depends on what you consider Durability Negation, I personally just think Kienzan is an attack that works on people decently stronger than Krillin, but if Krillin threw one at Beerus it wouldn't do anything.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

So he should get "Higher with Kienzan" ?

Besides I didn't suggest full-blown Durability Negation, just Limited Dura neg.

 

[Purgy]

Idk, it might work on Beerus, I can't say it wouldn't for certainty since he's never tried but I personally think it wouldn't work.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Idk, it might work on Beerus, I can't say it wouldn't for certainty since he's never tried but I personally think it wouldn't work.

Tbh I don't see it working at all as well. But then again Beerus is so far above Krillin it's not even funny lol.

 

[Dragomer]

So what exactly are we going to be adding here? As in what has been accepted that is.

Except the Kienzan thing that's being discussed, everyone seems to agree with the upgrade.

 

[Akreious]

Actually Kienzan very well may be at least Limited Durability Negation since the Daizenshuu sajys this about Gotenk's Brain Crush Hammer:

"*Brain Crush Hammer
Category: ki manipulation
People: Gotenks
Special Characteristics: A technique similar to the Kienza, the ki which he emits from his hands flies out in the form of Radiation, tearing his opponent's body to pieces. Super Saiya-jin 3 Gotenks used this in his battle after escaping from the Room of Spirit and Time, cutting Buu in half."

So this attack is sent as a form of radiation (So we need to give Gotenks Radiation Manipulation too I guess) and the Kienzan does something similar; AKA it does stuff on a scale similar to Radiation.

 

[Dragomer]

Radiation manipulation for Gotenks is pretty straightforward at least.

 

[AKM sama]

So what exactly are we going to be adding here? As in what has been accepted that is.

I already added the accepted stuff.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

If Destructo Disk gets limited Durability Negation, it would apply to:

• Krillin (obvious. can control up to three at once and split one into multiple)

• Vegeta (replicated it)

• Frieza (Death Slicer/Death Saucer, can control up to two at once)

• Goku (Replicated, learned Hexa Blade variant)

• Baby (Used it)

• Future Warrior 1 & 2 (Can learn it)

• Shallot (Can learn it)

Assuming all variants of Destructo Disk have the same Durability Negation properties.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

I would imagine it'd just be taken as higher AP.

Places like Rakudai hav people in entirely different tiers doing damage to each other and is just explained away as "lethal weapons", and dura neg is only reserved for what is very clearly dura neg.

 

[Nitro90]

Would Damage Boost work?

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

I would imagine it'd just be taken as higher AP.

Places like Rakudai hav people in entirely different tiers doing damage to each other and is just explained away as "lethal weapons", and dura neg is only reserved for what is very clearly dura neg.

Well, true. But even Piercing attacks like the Death Beam and Makankosappo have been no-sold by stronger or comparable characters. In the case of the Makankosappo it's even been stated to significantly boost piccolo's AP by over 2x if you want to count Power Levels. While the Kienzan never had a statement claiming that it increases Krillin's power. I get what you're saying and it makes sense, but I also feel like there's a lot of evidence to the contrary imo.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Then it can simply have higher penetration AP. A knife and a sharper knife are very different.

And I do believe AKM already brought that up, there was no scouter to make any comparisons off of. How many times is it noted that an opponent's technique is rising their power a heck ton?

Best I could see is a Possibly honestly.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Vegeta had a scouter when he used it on Nappa right? I remember he destroyed his scouter later on for the famous meme lol.

And Toriyama made a point of showing how all the other attacks increased their power levels such Tien's Kikoho and Gohan's Masenko, in addition to Piccolo's Makankosappo of course. It's kind of an interesting coincidence that the Kienzan was never lumped in with the rest of these special attacks even though it was the only one that seemed to have the potential to actually harm Nappa.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

He did, but those need to be turned on and he simply sensed it was dangerous. He didn't turn it on or notice his power rising.

I don't personally believe that's the cause of "showing". They are bigger than their normal attacks, by quite a lot at times, but not a big deal is made about the rising power except for very singular occassions (piccolo against Raditz).

Makes me think of the days when Roshi outright said Dodonpa was better than Kamehameha but that was consigned to oblivion.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

@Lancelot

I agree with you, but that's precisely my point.

He didn't make a big deal out of showing it because it didn't increase his PL all that much if at all. Certainly not by enough to harm second form Freeza. Forgive me for using power levels but it's the only metric we have. So, Freeza was at a million and Krillin was at 75k, so the Kienzan would have to be over 10X his PL to even be in the Freeza conversation, and we have nothing that indicates it's that big of a boost tbh. That's just the way I see it.

 

[AKM sama]

Again, it doesn't negate durability. It's a technique that punches above its weight that's it. Jiren lolnoped it and a Moro minion also lolnoped it.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

It should still be noted as having higher AP than normal attacks.

The characters I listed should probably get 'higher with Disk attacks' in their AP, or at least list those disk techniques on their profiles and state it can slice through people much stronger than them.

 

[Nitro90]

I already added the accepted stuff.

What about the other abilites that was mention along the thread

 

[AKM sama]

@Cryo that can be stated in their notable attacks/techniques section I think.

@Nitro Can you list them again?

 

[CryoTheMayo]

@Cryo that can be stated in their notable attacks/techniques section I think.
@Nitro Can you list them again?

It seems like Goku, Krillin, Frieza, Vegeta all list it under notable techniques, so you'd just have to add a note that says its slicing AP is much higher than their usual AP.

Baby needs Kienzan added to his Notable techniques, way too useful to not mention.

the XV and XV2 CaCs and Shallot don't list it, however. The CaCs list their notable techniques within their powers and abilities, but Kienzan doesn't fall under any abilities currently.

As for Shallot, he has many useful techniques but only two notable techniques. I think it might be fine to just place Kienzan under his notables, due to most of his other techniques being stated in his abilities.

 

[Dragomer]

@Cryo that can be stated in their notable attacks/techniques section I think.
@Nitro Can you list them again?

What's in the OP in addition to :

Radiation manipulation for Gotenks

Corruption for Omega Shenron

Purification for Gogeta SSJ4

Maybe limited absorption for Goku in SSJB and / or base (since he absorbed the genkidama to fuel UI the first time) ?

I think that's all.

 

[Nitro90]

What's in the OP in addition to :

Radiation manipulation for Gotenks

Corruption for Omega Shenron

Purification for Gogeta SSJ4

Maybe limited absorption for Goku in SSJB and / or base (since he absorbed the genkidama to fuel UI the first time) ?

I think that's all.

There's more I will list them when I have time later on.

 

[ChemistKyle89]

Again, it doesn't negate durability. It's a technique that punches above its weight that's it. Jiren lolnoped it and a Moro minion also lolnoped it.

I wouldn't consider punching, kicking, and grabbing it along the plane where the technique isn't dangerous at all the same as actually tanking the blade like anime filler Cell. AFAIK, filler Cell's the only one the blade has hit and shattered on aka the only one who's lolnoped it. That's all that Jiren did, touch it where it's not dangerous...as best as I could tell from the sloppy animation anyway. Idk about the Moro minion though. Did he tank the blade or did he do something along the plane? [GT Goku surfs on top of one].

What the Kienzan appears to do is it condenses an omnidirectional blast down into a planar blast, because it seems to always cut all the way through whatever it hits [Small disk hits mountain, entire mountain is cut in half, etc.].

That being said, I do agree with AKM in that it doesn't negate durability. I'm sure if there was a way to figure out the difference between an omnidirectional explosion and an explosion of the same strength that was compressed and forced to travel only along a plane, it would probably be significantly more powerful (how much more powerful...idk, perhaps an explosion expert could give us a rough amplification number?).

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

You are free to show me a scan of the opposite, but didn't Jiren quite literally grab it by the edge? That's like saying the rotating edge of a saw is the safest place to grab it. There is no safest place to grab such a thing unless you are using two hands, like a sword catch, which is exactly what Jiren didn't do. That or having hands big enough to squeeze it without your palm touching the edge, but I am not sure that would be assumed for Jiren.

 

[ChemistKyle89]

I'd assume he didn't actually touch the blade unless you can show me his glove being cut. Pretty sure his glove doesn't have Jiren durability.