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Dragon Ball Super Discussion Thread 87

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"What the Android arc has is a VERY STRONG conclusion, with Cell and Gohan's final Kamehameha struggle being IMO the best ending of a battle in DB so far"

Jiren vs Goku, frieza and 17 had the best ending imo
 
The Cell saga conclusion isn't all that strong, it's just Radditz 2.0, just without any teaming up, people try to overhype it because they seem to think that whole 'passing the torch' thing sound deep or something when it's not and was always a disaster when attempted.
 
Boo arc > Cell arc imo. Better themes and more solid character arcs.

And Saiyan arc had the best ending. Not because it ended with a "shout" like a beam struggle but because it ended with a whimper.
 
PaChi2 said:
"What the Android arc has is a VERY STRONG conclusion, with Cell and Gohan's final Kamehameha struggle being IMO the best ending of a battle in DB so far"
Jiren vs Goku, frieza and 17 had the best ending imo
Click to expand...
Had a similar ending, but here comes a personal bias that I will explain .

When I watched it the first time... I was Gohan's age and matched him a lot (bad temper, a bit of a recluse nerd...).

Gohan's rage and potential were also a HUGE element that was often brought up and up again, here we finally see the logical conclusion as Gohan is literally surpassing a being made of every great warrior of his time combined. And uusally final fights in DB do end anticlimatically, so to watch a mostly equal beam struggle at the end was exciting.

Maybe I am wrong, nad I see it with the eyes of my 11 years old self (I remember in the Italian dubbing, it was said Gohan was 11, might have been wrong, don't care)... what can I say, moved me!
 
Its all about opinions.

"Usually final fights in DB do end anticlimatically"

Please I need some back up here.
 
...Definitely gotta disagree with anyone who says Cell wasn't cool until he was perfect. Imperfect Cell is underrated, but only because he's a ******* horror villain, not really a typical shonen villain. Imperfect Cell would be very much at home in an Alien-style setting, skulking around and absorbing people... I agree that Semi-Perfect Cell was god awful, though.


But I digress.
 
I mean it doesn't take much strats and cunning to basicaly just eat powerless people while the heroes are not only not paying attention but actively in another conflict.
 
You think so? I could be wrong, but I do recall Piccolo, Tenshinhan and Krillin actively looking for him, while Trunks and Gohan were investigating other stuff. When the Androids showed up at Kame House Piccolo was kinda lika "aw, crap I forgot these guys were around", IIRC.

Maybe it was issues in the writting, but covering his tracks when the good guys could effectively sense he was emptying a city and escape right in their noses was kinda competent for the usual DBZ villian who has the advantage of overpowering the heroes >_>
 
Originally I thought the Cell arc is better than Buu arc but I'm having second thoughts. It's a common complaint that Goku is a giant idiot in the Buu arc and is the reason for the damage that happened. But the Cell arc is arguably worse with this because like all the Z fighters is at fault. Which is more aggravating.

Super Buu I find more enjoyable and more scary compare to any other villain in the series. Completely unpredictable but also smart.Human Extinction scene still drops my jaw. Also this scene always worked[[1]] will
 
Oh yeah, the human extinction moment was a massive holy crap, how incredibly nonchanlantly Buu does it really contributes to it. I also really appreciated how they showed Mr. Satan's more human and kind hearted side, making you appreciate him a lot more especially if weren't fond of his comedic schtick in the Cell saga.
 
Honestly, Buu Saga Goku has more justification than Cell Saga Goku. Goku's intent to fight Vegeta was due to seeing Vegeta's baggage and lack of closure, his refusal to destroy Buu was due to his belief that the warriors of Earth needed to step up in his place and him saving Hercule and Dende was, arguably, nothing more than a mistake when panicking.

Goku's rationale for he, a dead person, not saving the Earth is far more reasonable than Goku using his own son as a mere weapon and refusing any shot at revival due to a misguided belief that he 'attracted threats', which is only true for the Red Ribbon Army, Raditz and Frieza.

And, honestly, if Gotenks and Gohan didn't pull such stupid moves, they could have easily ended up saving the Earth and proving Goku's beliefs were well-founded, instead they just went full stupid.
 
Nullflowerblush said:
User:GodlyCharmander, you only used one source to justify Super Saiyan Fourth Grade being more powerful than vanilla Super Saiyan, and even that's an incorrect source for your argument.
You mentioned Broly's "MSSJ" being far more powerful than his regular Super Saiyan, but that's his Legendary Super Saiyan form. That form shares a name with Super Saiyan Fourth Grade (Super Saiyan Full Power) but they're never considered or appear to be remotely similar. It's just Type C and Type B Super Saiya.

Anyways, the El Manga Legendario post you shared stated that, "Although Goku manages to reach a state superior to that of Super Saiyan, he realizes that he will not be able to defeat Cell. Then, change your mind(?) and in the end get a level that Vegeta could not reach."

- Firstly, the Fourth Grade form is being deemed superior to First Grade because it just is. However, "being superior" does not automatically mean "more powerful". It could mean better in different areas, like the conversation of energy and control of emotions, which is what makes Fourth Grade the preferred form. And, just because it's the Fourth Grade doesn't mean it's superior to the rest. It's just enhanced First Grade.

- Secondly, "...a level that Vegeta could not reach" also does not imply that it is more powerful than the forms that Vegeta has (Second and Third Grade). It simply means that Vegeta doesn't have what it takes to achieve the Fourth Grade at the time, which he then gains in the Buu Saga. It doesn't mean it's that much stronger than he is.

- Thirdly, Post-HTC Fourth Grade Goku being more powerful than the other Second Grades does not mean that Fourth Grade is more powerful than it. I just assumed that it was obvious Goku and Gohan became significantly more powerful than the other characters in base, which is why they can take on that level of Cell, as opposed to Vegeta and Trunks who couldn't defeat a more suppressed Cell.

- Fourthly, under the Goku image in the El Manga Legendario scan, it reads both, (left) "Goku and Gohan train with the premise of considering the Super Saiyan state as a normal state," and (right) "Looking for the best state to face Cell without straining uselessly." These extra texts imply that Fourth Grade is just First Grade, but more refined. There are also these scans:

https://i.imgur.com/x7iweY7.jpg

https://pm1.narvii.com/7182/89420252765a92c785ae1a72dce4103943aef9ber1-1100-1650v2_hq.jpg

These just further the point that Fourth Grade is simply First Grade but trained to be second-hand, so that the users could stay calm despite Super Saiyan's roots in anger, and so that they could conserve energy, remaining in the form for days on end to maximize the potential of the form. It's a perfect balance between strength, speed, and stamina, which is what Goku wanted because of the drawbacks of Third Grade. He even mentioned that First Grade has a better balance than Third Grade.

https://pm1.narvii.com/6875/5ce31f39f4c05652642e316e97a0046d35c48091r1-1440-1314v2_hq.jpg

Then, there's the Daizenshuu stating that Fourth Grade draws Super Saiyan to its full power, which falls in line with my statement of it maximizing the form's potential, with its full power still being x50 base. This isn't drawing out the full power of all of the Super Saiyan forms, the Daizenshuu doesn't generalize the Super Saiyan Grades like that.

So yeah, Super Saiyan Fourth Grade is just the First Grade but more stable so it can used at 100% all the time, which is the same principle used for Perfected Super Saiyan Blue from the manga. Everything else is pretty cool.
Click to expand...
Well, that's going to be quite fun. You are absolutely right, I didn't give enough sources, and i see you don't have any problems with the other multipliers as it stands. So I went after a few more


Despise the incoherence of Super Saiyan Third Grade being a higher multiplier than Super Saiyan Three for that logic, the whole situation with Broly is not justifiable with "it doesn't look the same", his Mastered Super Saiyan form is not treated as a Legendary form at all, but as a Fully Powered version of his Regular Super Saiyan state, it's how it is referred as, and so how we should interpret it. Grade 4 = Grade 1… That ain't true, ya know. It's blatantly stated at least 3 times in the Boo Arc that SSJ2 "Even further" surpasses SSJ1, indicating that they were already using a form superior to Grade I


ÒüòÒéëÒü½: Adverb, Conjunction1. furthermore; again; after all; more and more; moreover; even more

1. furthermore; again; after all; more and more; moreover; even more


The notion that FPSSJ/SSJ Grade 4 is stronger than Grade 1 is a rather old concept. It's stated multiple times they must surpass the SSJ wall in order to face the Artificial Humans, let alone Cell https://m.imgur.com/a/S0OHXJe


After Goku and Gohan leave the HTC, Vegeta mentions how they literally aren't using Grade I, despite the looks:


Chapter: 390 (DBZ 196), P6.1-2

Context: Goku and Gohan emerged from the Room of Spirit and Time

Vegeta (to self): "…What's with them?!...Is that Super Saiyan…!? No…It has a slightly different atmosphere…They're being so natural in that state…"


He also mentions how now they can raise their power without strain, a reference to what Goku said on the Grade forms being stressful over the body:


Vegeta: "They've judged that state as the best! If they get used to that as a matter of habit, then even if they raise their battle power, the strain on their body is very small! [...] They've thought this through…"


https://imgur.com/a/Y873xzN


"Super Saiyan" relative to the musclebound. If he were still using Grade I Cell would've one shoted him.


Some argue Vegeta's merely talking about Goku raising to 100%, but the Japanese Anime clarifies this, adding a scene where Trunks compares FPSSJ to Grade III


https://imgur.com/a/UAoVDFZ


His thoughts in response to Vegeta's comment. Anime only, but really clarifies things.


Some fans take Goku's statement as proof that FPSSJ and SSJ are the same power up, but if that were the case Grade 2 Vegeta would be > SSJ Goku by that fact alone. They also forget to take into account the context: Goku is calling the Super Saiyan the "most balanced" in comparison to the strainful, sluggish Grade forms and is refering to training as a Super Saiyan Grade 1, not fighting Cell with it. He's aiming to have power superior to that of Grade 1 without the unbalanced stats that come along with Grade 2 or 3. He obviously couldn't have fought Cell using the same transformation he used to fight Freeza or #19, as it's stated to have it's limitations

https://imgur.com/a/SduBWdk


We have many other sources that prove that Grade 4 > Grade 1. And the source that implies that it'd surpass Grade 3 as well.


https://imgur.com/a/KmXqIIC


We also have this guide here, The guide pretty much suggests that Grade 4 is a form higher than Grade 3, and Grade 5 is ranked as the highest of the forms as displayed.


https://imgur.com/a/IA1GNTV


But this same guide ranks The forms from weakest to strongest. It starts off by explaining Grade 1. It describes each form as an evolution to the previous one, in which power and everything (except speed for Grade 3) increases once being undergone by the Saiyan.


"The Theory of Super Saiyan Evolution

The 4 Super Saiyans power up each time they battle a strong foe! This complete analysis categorizes the process and history of their evolution, grade by grade!"


It ranks the forms from the very basic form into the strongest form (it calls Grade 1 "basic" referring to it as the weakest despite mentioning Grade 4, and calls Grade 5, the end of the chain, as the "strongest form"). This guide is being straightforward in its ranking between the forms, so denying the ranking is not quite plausible:


"Super Saiyan Grade One (Basic Form)

When they transform into Super Saiyans their battle power, the height of their ki, and muscle strength are all dramatically increased compared to when they are regular Saiyans! What's more, once they transform their black hair stands straight up and is dyed gold, and they emit an intense aura. This form could be called the basis for all later Super Saiyans from Grade Two onward!!"


This description is implying that Grade 1 is a basis for all the other forms which means it differentiates between Grade 1 and Grade 4, and that Grade 4 is an upgrade on Grade 1. So, the guide is being straightforward on its point that Grade 1 is the weakest, and each grade is stronger than the previous one. Ssj2 is also stated to be the strongest form as it suggested:


Super Saiyan Grade Five (Strongest Form)

"An aura with sparks like flashes of lightning and an upright, combative hairstyle are the distinguishing features of this, the strongest Saiyan warrior! One's personality also becomes aggressive; even the ordinarily gentle Gohan started to enjoy battle! Its power is enough to push back even Cell's energy bullet, which had enough force to blow away the Solar System!"


About the El Legendario Manga, I think you misinterpreted what the guide said, you also miss the most crucial points from the guide to support your personal interpretation. For one, Grade 3 being a 10x Multiplier on Grade 2 is a very logical, uncontradicted point at all. To go further into the topic, Daizenshuu 10 also supports this point heavily, in which it claims that Grade 1 Super Saiyan is the very Base form of all Super Saiyan forms and the rest are upgrades.


https://imgur.com/a/RIR1nCz


"Anime Version: Super Saiya-jin Genealogy

The strongest warrior in the universe, the Super Saiya-jin. Here we'll profile the genealogy of the Super Saiya-jin, including characters who only appeared in the anime, and variations that appeared over the course of Super Saiya-jin evolution!!"


So here, Daizenshuu 10 is pretty much implying that the forms are EVOLVING each grade they're jumping into, and that they're going to analyse each one based on the "SUPER SAIYA-JIN EVOLUTION" and not necessarily the plot progression of the forms. Meaning each further grade is above the previous one. This is also supposed by how Ssj3 is explained to be the strongest form to exist, and that Grade 1 Ssj is the base of all forms, aka the weakest of them all. This pretty much puts Grade 4 > Grade 1 by default. The following is even more interesting:


"Super Saiya-jin

Super Saiya-jin's biggest distinguishing characteristics are the golden hair that stands up straight, and the green pupils. Also, because they are in a continuous lightly agitated state, their personality also becomes wild. This type is the first grade of Super Saiya-jin, and can be called the base for all Super Saiya-jins."


The Daizenshuu 10 describes the Grade 1 Ssj as the base form of all the Super Saiyan forms, meaning it's the very starter of the forms and is considered to be the Grade 1 out of all the other variations, meaning it's a basic starter of all the Forms. The guide is very clear on how it's distinguishing the Regular Ssj from Full Power Super Saiyan, and that they're not quite the same. The guide also claims that Grade 2 and 3 are powered up versions, while Grade 4 is a version where it allows you to stay in your Ssj state without any agitation:


"Variations

Grades 2-3 are powered up versions of the Grade 1, which Goku, Vegeta, and Trunks have the ability to transform into. Full Power time is a type where they are able to unconsciously exist in the Super Saiya-jin state, and even the wildness of their personality vanishes. Only Goku and Gohan can transform into this."


DBS also shows a very amazing example regarding Power of Grade 4. In the Universe 6 Arc for instance, Base Vegeta was stated directly to be equal to Base Cabba and nothing contradicted that in the slightest at all. Later on, Vegeta blocks Cabba's punch as a Ssj without even flinching. You will have to prove why Base Vegeta isn't equal to Base Cabba even though it's stated and feat-wise it's all proven. Grade 4 > Grade 1 explains this scenario almost perfectly


https://imgur.com/a/Mjd6FPl


Now to add on something from Dragon Ball Super as Well, Katopesla vs Vegeta proves this. Katopesla fights evenly with Base Vegeta using his Battle Mode which is 300x his usual Base form

Let's take these values:


Battle Mode Katopesla:

Speed = 1

Power = 300


Base Vegeta was shown to EVENLY fight with Katopesla, and when Katopesla goes Ultimate, Vegeta is forced to go Ssj to overpower him and even uses a Final Flash against Katopesla, and still resists. Ultimate Mode boosts The usual power of a character by 300x both speed and Power:


Ultimate Mode Katopesla:

Speed = 300

Power = 300


Base Vegeta:

Speed = 1

Power = 300


Mssj Vegeta:

Speed = at least 300 (probably 500)

Power = at least 90000 (probably more)


MSSJ, therefore, cannot be a 50x multiplier, being *at the very least* 300x.


https://imgur.com/a/u7H8uPY
 
He didn't use Gohan as a weapon, Gohan was simply the only one strong enough and the only reason Goku stopped his own fight was because he saw he was just making Cell stronger.
 
Is it really misguided? Those are the exact 3 villains from the last arcs. He's not wrong Also if I remember correctly he wanted Goten and Trunks to finish off Buu comparing this to Gohan I find it worse sense Goku knows way less about them compare to Gohan and they are even less trained so leaving the Earth fate with them felt more like a leap faith.

From what I see the problem with Goku not coming back and making Gohan beat Cell is that this gave the fans the idea that Goku was passing the torch and overall a feeling of character development for Goku but it ended up to not being the way most predicted
 
Ki does the same thing and it's not accepted, why would it be accepted for Bleach ? every single anime with a specific energy source has that, the whole 'X will passively crush people too weak' isn't new and certainly isn't exclusive to bleach.
 
HrishikeshM said:
guys i think bleach fans are still pushing for reiatsu crush working on anyone despite when it was rejected in staff threas and a rule was made
https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/4012905

are they breaking wiki rules?
Click to expand...
If making that argument is breaking wiki rules then this site needs new rules.

Okay, so ep 123 SSB Vegeta vs peak SSJ Kefla, who wins? interesting little versus match.
 
PFM18 said:
Okay, so ep 123 SSB Vegeta vs peak SSJ Kefla, who wins? interesting little versus match.
Click to expand...
That's a very good question. I think Post UIS2 Goku SSJB and UIS2 Goku are roughly the same in power. Kelfa is roughly around the same power though her final attack boosted her power so great, she could one shot Goku. I think Vegeta would have the advantage as he was only slightly weaker to a degree compared to SSJBKK Goku. Kefla could win with her Gigantic Burst attack but I think Vegeta will just take it via skill.
 
During Episode 123, Super Saiyan Blue Goku, who was still beaten and exhausted from his fight with Kefla and from the use of Ultra Instinct Sign, took on a less suppressed than 109-110 Jiren, who was able to effortlessly, somewhat, push back and overpower 109-110 Goku's Super Saiyan Blue x20 Kaio-ken Genkidama, the attack that Whis stated Super Saiyan Kefla was equal to.

So, the chain goes like: "Less Suppressed 123 Jiren >= Exhausted 123 Super Saiyan Blue Goku = 123 Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta >= 115 Ultra Instinct Sign Goku >= 109-110 Heavily Suppressed Jiren >= 110 Ultra Instinct Sign Goku > 109-110 Super Saiyan Blue x20 Kaioken Universe 7 Genkidama = 115 Super Saiyan Kefla."

This isn't even taking into account all of the other fights between Episodes 115 and 123, where Goku and Vegeta got several more Zenkai Boosts, increasing her power even more signicantly.

And, Kefla's Ray Blast was done in her Super Saiyan 2 form.
 
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