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Dragon Ball Super Discussion Thread 86

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Meh, that revision is based on taking 'the universal seed' and it's concept way too directly rather than what it has shown, that's like trying to make a revision on HOTU Thanos just because the HOTU is called 'heart of the univers' and is used to creat one rather than look at what was accomplished with it.

Also using Xeno characters when 99% of everything DBH was never released outside of Japan was a dumb idea to begin with.
 
ZERO7772 said:
Dies Irae and IWKB are both officially translated.
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The whole High 1-A justification comes from Kajiri Kamui Kagura, the only part that explains Throne, Hadou Gods and Singularity in depth.
 
So both Dies Irae and it spin off are "not important" now? Hadou gods, throne, Singularity were all expained in DI.

KKK just added the Taiji BS and some exra lore.

High 1-A is new on me lol.
 
ZERO7772 said:
Couldn't care less about the tiring to be honest.
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The thread that led to this discussion was talking about tiering, so it's totally the only thing that mattered for my argument.
 
I didn't check the thread. But when you disregard everything in the verse as "not important" just because it didn't give you "muh high 1-A" it's rubs me off the wrong way.

If you meant just the tier 1 stuff you should have specific it tbh. I mean, just think about it, Dies is the backbone for any Shinza title that was released down the line after it.

Anyway, this is off topic as hell. People don't care much about DBH because they must better DB material that they can sink their teeth into in english.
 
ZERO7772 said:
But when you disregard everything in the verse as "not important" just because it didn't give you "muh high 1-A" it's rubs me off the wrong way.
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I didn't disregard everything in the verse as not important. Dies Irae doesn't give anything that really supports the High 1-A rating, and given we're talking about ratings, Kajiri Kamui Kagura is the important one here, since that's where the whole justification comes from. I think Dies Irae is important since it was the 2nd instalment on the trilogy (soon to be quadrilogy), but for tiering proposes, which what I was talking about due to the linked thread, Kajiri Kamui Kagura is the only important one to support the rating.
 
Dragomer said:
Ovrhide said:
Doesn't mean Goku grow 100 times stronger every time he sneezes.
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Yeah, we know thats just broly.


But goku does get ridiculous zenkais consistently.
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And DBS introduced 'limit breaking', which are Zenkai on steroid and without the need to be healed.
Not really? It's jusst a euphemism to describe the goals that they have always had and have always strived for becoming, in addition to just being a generic verbatim to describe why a transformation is stronger than before.
 
Zamasu Chan said:
ZERO7772 said:
Goku didn't grow 100 times stronger.....

It's mentioned that he could fight her like that due to him being a superior martial artist not because he's stronger. Not to mention Caulifla catched up with him pretty quickly.
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Base Goku was blatantly as strong as her no amount of skill can close that gap just look at Broly. Even then Base Goku being stronger than her SSJ2 state at the beginning of the tournament makes sense IMO. Especially since Base Vegeta one shot Monna despite Cabba needing SSJ2 to overpower her.
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No, it was explicitly as a result of a gap in skill, the story goes out of it's way to make that very clear.
 
I do find it kind of funny that only now does Dragon Ball introduce the concept that skill can make up for a power gap (e.g. Roshi vs Ganos, Goku v. Caulifla) when before, fighters like Nappa are able to use brute force alone to dominate opponents who have years of martial arts training and battle experience under their belt, even though there's only a 9x gap between Nappa and the weakest Z Fighter at most, whereas Base Goku is at least 100x weaker than SS2Caulifla, if I understand it right.

...I mean, Nappa and Vegeta had experience, and I think there's some evidence of there being a Saiyan martial art style that Vegeta knows, at least,, but there's never any evidence of any undertaking any martial arts training like Goku, Krillin, etc.
 
Doesn't really matter. Tien got his hand cut off from trying to block one of Nappa's attacks so skills didn't really matter.

Typical dragon ball never changes. Even toward the end of Goku vs Jiren match it turned into a brawler where Goku had to get angry and scream really hard to overpower Jiren despie Goku being likely far more skilled fighter.
 
Shubham Sonsurkar said:
Nappa is a Sayian Elite they are trained from birth
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Except that's pretty much proven false, or they'd have been stronger than they already were. They were given military training I'm sure, but their power doesn't actively grow unless they zenkai. Nor does any of Nappa's movements suggest skill; he fights like a brawler.
 
If Tien could hold Semi Perfect Cell with his Kikoho, couldnt he have obliterated the androids during their first encounter?
 
PaChi2 said:
If Tien could hold Semi Perfect Cell with his Kikoho, couldnt he have obliterated the androids during their first encounter?
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'Hold' is a bit overselling it, he could slightly budge him while taking him by surprise with his ultimate attack that drained his lifeforce.
 
"Slightly budge" feels like underselling because Cell was really close of reaching perfection and Android 18 was very close to him at the time. For anyone to buy 18 enough time to let her escape they'd have to pack a punch. Also, its not like the androids wouldnt be taken by surprise if Tien delivered such an attack.
 
Kikoho had the power to hold Cell down. It did not do any actual damage to Cell, but only forced him to stay in one place. I think Kikoho might have done some actual damage to the androids, but they'd have killed Tien the moment he collapsed.
 
A Stoned Orc said:
Kikoho had the power to hold Cell down. It did not do any actual damage to Cell, but only forced him to stay in one place. I think Kikoho might have done some actual damage to the androids, but they'd have killed Tien the moment he collapsed.
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We know that:

Semi-Perfect Cell>>>>16~Imperfect Cell(post-absorptions)>>17>18>>>>>Tenshinhan

There is absolutely no reason why, the same Kikoho that stunned Semi-Perfect Cell, shouldn't have been able to absolutely disintegrate the androids.
 
...Your own scaling chain disproves your theory, though. An attack like that would have roughed 17 and 18 up, sure, but 17 also has a barrier that Semi-Perfect Cell lacks.
 
CryoTheMayo said:
SS Cabba is as strong as SS Vegeta in the Universe 6 arc but:
  • Base Black scales to SS2 Goku and is stated to be holding back
  • Base Black stomps SSB Vegeta
  • Post-HBTC SSB Vegeta thrashed a much stronger SSR Black
Assuming this was purely consistent and Black was in base form, this means Vegeta grew at least over 5,000x more powerful after training in the Time Chamber. Even if we assume Black was using SSG's power in base form (Beyond God from the RoF film) that would still come to Vegeta easily becoming over 50x more powerful since he fought Cabba.

We have no reason to think Caulifa is massively stronger than Cabba, or for Cabba to have grown much stronger since he fought Vegeta. So Base Goku scaling to SS2 Caulifa is actually pretty reasonable.
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okay can you walk me through how this works exactly? are you assuming SSR has a massive multiplier? Why do you seem to conflate the Black that fought SSJ2 Goku and the one that fought SSB Vegeta? You say "Base Black stomps SSB Vegeta" as if Base Black>SSB Vegeta when the same Black had his punches blocked by Vegeta before stabbing Vegeta. How does that work?
 
A Stoned Orc said:
...Your own scaling chain disproves your theory, though. An attack like that would have roughed 17 and 18 up, sure, but 17 also has a barrier that Semi-Perfect Cell lacks.
Click to expand...
how exactly does the chain disprove anything? And what makes you think 17's barrier means anything in the face of more power?

@Dragomer

The manga is also extremely clear that Cell was unable to move and Tenshinhan's attack was the reason that 18 was able to get away from Cell.
 
I don't think SS Cabba would be as strong as Vegeta, he seemed to be completely unharmed by SS Cabba's Attacks, and tanked Cabba's punch on his forehead like it was nothing. The progression of the battle pretty much contradicts Vegeta's only vague statement. (In the ToP, Vegeta proves to be stronger than SS Cabba CASUALLY while in base form)
 
No one is denying that Tien's attack did not do what Tien intended it to do.

To assume that an attack that could hold back Semi-Perfect Cell would one-shot the androids is ridiculous. If Tien believed he could do that, why wouldn't Tien just try to do that a lot earlier? While Vegeta or Piccolo fought 18/17, he could have taken out the other with the Kikoho, but he didn't--because he couldn't. Even with the Kikoho, the Androids hopelessly outmatched Tien. All the man could do was stall for time against Cell.

Plus, we see 17's barrier hold up just fine against stronger opponents in Super, though it does eventually crack and break.
 
The density of the hardest material known in our Universe is the Nuclear Pasta, which is 10^14 g/cm┬│. The Kachi Katchin is even harder, and denser than that, but we'll use it as a base. How much energy would be necessary to destroy a single rock of that material? Something that a lot of characters do in the Tournament of Power. I believe that would lead to some decent upgrades for minor characters
 
A Stoned Orc said:
To assume that an attack that could hold back Semi-Perfect Cell would one-shot the androids is ridiculous. If Tien believed he could do that, why wouldn't Tien just try to do that a lot earlier? While Vegeta or Piccolo fought 18/17, he could have taken out the other with the Kikoho, but he didn't--because he couldn't. Even with the Kikoho, the Androids hopelessly outmatched Tien. All the man could do was stall for time against Cell.
Click to expand...
How is that ridiculous? That's exactly my entire point. He SHOULD have tried to do that a lot earlier. There's EVERY reason why he should have used it against them when Vegeta and Piccolo were fighting alongside him. It's just plot convenience, not anything rational. It was convenient plot-wise for Tenshinhan to lose to them easily, and then be able to stun Semi-Perfect Cell, it wasn't logical.

I mean I know I disputed how the barrier would perform before, but it's not really relevant. Tenshinhan SHOULD have been able to use it and be effective against them from his point of view, it's not as if he predicted 17 would block it with his shield and that's why he didn't do it. We have no reason to believe that Tenshinhan considered it but decided against it, he's not aware of the barrier anyway. It's just an inconsistency.
 
PaChi2 said:
If Tien could hold Semi Perfect Cell with his Kikoho, couldnt he have obliterated the androids during their first encounter?
Click to expand...
Maybe? I can't say it will kill them for sure but it should do some serious damage to them.

Semi perfect cell could likely one shot android 18 with one punch but he couldn't break free from Tien's attack.
 
how exactly does the chain disprove anything? And what makes you think 17's barrier means anything in the face of more power?

@Dragomer

The manga is also extremely clear that Cell was unable to move and Tenshinhan's attack was the reason that 18 was able to get away from Cell.

Well, dunmo if this applies to DBZ but in super, 17's barriers are pretty ridiculous and far more durable than he is seeing as how he could tank attacks from GoD Toppo and serious Jiren who both far outclass him.
 
The Barrier in 17's case was used only once, and the Daishenzuu back then said they could only block attacks up to half his full output

Also, 17's barrier could never tank Jiren's attacks. Even by making multiple barriers, Jiren could shatter them all with a single attack (until 17 'self destructed', that is)
 
No his last barrier stopped Jiren's attack for a while.\

Feaths in the show > a decade years old guide book. It's has been wrong on multiple occasions anyway
 
Likewise is it possible for us to get a calc for the weights Whis put on Goku and Vegeta in the beginning of the Champa Arc? Anime version.
 
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