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Dragon Ball Super Discussion Thread 75

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The scaling goes like this

Post-Limit Break Base Goku = Second Super Dense Energy (Post-SSG Absorption SS1 Goku + Beerus) > Post-SSG Absorption SS1 Goku > First Super Dense Energy (SSG Goku + Beerus) Ôëê (whatever the current results for destroying the universe from the edge is) baseline Universe level
 
I can promise you no amounts of limit breaking will reasonably allow base Goku at the level of SSJ Goku and Beerus combined in a matter of seconds.
 
The real cal howard said:
I can promise you no amounts of limit breaking will reasonably put base Goku at the level of SSJ Goku and Beerus combined in a matter of seconds.
Click to expand...
FIFY
 
The real cal howard said:
I can promise you no amounts of limit breaking will reasonably allow base Goku at the level of SSJ Goku and Beerus combined in a matter of seconds.
Click to expand...
Uhhh did you watch the ToP? Because getting that much stronger via one limit break is a pretty common thing in DBS. Goku did it and so did Vegeta.
 
The real cal howard said:
I can promise you no amounts of limit breaking will reasonably allow base Goku at the level of SSJ Goku and Beerus combined in a matter of seconds.
Click to expand...
A power up is a power up, reasonable enough to me, happens everytime in DB. Beerus even taunts Goku asking him if he is at his limit, to which Goku gets triggered, punches the ball and answers that just because Beerus is a god, he can't go deciding other people's limits.
 
We sure this isn't just base form keeping up for a moment? If it is, that happens quite often, not sure why we would treat it differently now and make it scale.
 
@Peter

You can't compare the end of the series, with totally different themes in that arc (and even then the justification is absurdly excessive), to the beginning.

@AKM

By that logic, outliers don't exist at all anymore, as a power up is a power up. Pikachu powered up enough to beat the Regi Trio, for example.
 
Base form keeping up for a moment would have been if Goku struggled first in base form and then transformed. The writer specifically made Goku revert back to his base form for that final punch and all the dialogue points to a classic example of limit-breaking. This is also supported by the fact that Goku was constantly getting stronger during that entire fight. I don't see why there's any confusion.

And if the powering up of Pikachu is supported by the context, dialogues and the entire fight leading up to it and if the power is kept intact in the future too with no contradictions, then no it isn't an outlier. It's legit.
 
What does the theme of the arc have to with them breaking their limits? Whis and Grand Priest explicitly stated that Goku and Vegeta broke through their shell and we see them get ridiculously more powerful than before.

This is no different than Base Goku talking about limits and than nullifying an energy ball previously created by him in a stronger form to show that he broke his limits and got stronger.

But yeah I also think the justification is really excessive for his BoG key. Also there are some grammar problems in the AP justification for his BoG key. And the same blog link has been used twice on DBS Goku's profile.
 
They're ridiculously more powerful than before as a result of training and experiences happening. No more than 30 seconds have passed yet Goku is all of a sudden stronger in his base than in SSJ? That's bullshit. All explanations haven't been confirmed by limit breaking, unlike in the ToP (which is also bullshit, but it's slightly justifiable bullshit).
 
I actually agree with Cal here.

While limit breaking was a thing in BoG, that was only with SSJG. SSJ being = SSJG was because Goku absorbed SSJG's power, not because he suddenly broke his limits. Classical limit breaking? Dunno about that, since this is literally one punch compared to them actively showing that they retained a boost from the fight.

The 'one final punch' thing sounds less like him becoming 40 or 50x stronger permanently and more like the 'one last attack that somehow works' trope.
 
Well if everybody else also believes that Base Goku didn't break his limits in the BoG Arc than I guess I'll just roll with it. Although I'm pretty sure Base Goku will still be 3-A now that the DB universe size is accepted.
 
Eh I think Cal and Somebody Date actually make sense here. By that logic outliers and PIS does not exist anymore.

Sure in ToP they kept pulling power ups out of theri asses, but those were acknowledge by the narrtive of the show and the characters, base Goku being stronger than his SSJ for in few sec "because of muh limi breaking" makes no sense.

This is no different than SSG Goku fighting on par with Cumber after the latter swapped Vegito like nothing in DBH.
 
Outliers exist, but this isn't one. The entire context and dialogues surrounding that moment scream "limit-breaking" and provide the necessary justification for that power up in question. He was also constantly getting stronger when he had SSG, as pointed out by Beerus, and when he lost the form the narrator said that he was beyond the level of SSG as a SSJ. Everything supports that Goku broke his limits and got stronger and the other alternate notion is supported by literally nothing but incredulity.

Kinda weird how this is being discussed months after the blog was accepted, only when the final number has been increased.
 
AKM sama said:
Kinda weird how this is being discussed months after the blog was accepted, only when the final number has been increased.
Click to expand...
For the same reasons that trying to put a number on 3-A levels using our accepted multipliers is disagreed with for some people.
 
There was a blog?

Also, you mentioned my point right there. He was getting constantly stronger, as a SSJG. Nothing supports that he kept growing 40x stronger in a base form.

" other alternate notion is supported by literally nothing but incredulity."

Pointing out that a trope that DB uses literally every arc also fits in this context is not incredulity and the context points to SSJG getting stronger, not base.

Hell, was it even limit breaking? I thought it was Goku adapting to the form if I remember correctly.
 
Never really about this point: Empty VOid We have standard for Timeless Voids Standards so going by definition, the 3-A's feat could have been Low 2-C as the universe would have become a void- which is timeless by nature- hence time, not just space would have been destroyed.

Honestly, to me, this tier would make sense as God of Destruction like Beerus and Champa can destroy their universes in their battle, and scale to Toppo.

And, Beerus holding back to infinite against Goku, Gods stating that Goku Blue was compared to rivaling a God- seems improbable to me to be just 3-A.

Also, the Low 2-C would solve the Power-up that goes to infinite like Kefla, and Broly (Dragon Ball Super) issue.
 
Zamasu Chan said:
@ Elizhaa, that's why there's gonna be a whole universe level revision between 3-A, High 3-A and low 2-C.
Click to expand...
I known 3-A to High 3-C is likely going to Tier 2 anyway. DBS's 3-A most likely is going to be Tier 2 in the long run, Zamasu Cha .
 
You are free to make a CRT then but your argument is the same as the previous concerning the "Empty void = Low 2-C" no talk about beerus and champa's feats.

But you can make the thread if you are sure.
 
I mean

Beerus and Champa can destroy 4-D timelines on their lonesome if Zamasu is anything to consider.
 
"Gee, I wonder if it's because people can change their mind."

Gee, I wonder if people won't call me dishonest for changing my mind only when the numbers went up.

@SD

Yes, Goku kept getting stronger even after his SSG form faded away because "the God's red shine was still burning like a raging fire inside him". Not only once, but several times.

When Goku punched Beerus in his SSJ1, Beerus was surprised at his power saying "So this is the power of the Super Saiyan God", despite witnessing SSG before. Clear indication that SSJ1 Goku was stronger than SSG.

When Goku went for his last kamehameha, Beerus once again said "I won't be able to negate it this time", proving that Goku got even stronger.

When Goku was struggling with the second sphere Beerus asked Goku: "Are you really not at your limit yet?"

To which Goku replied: "Shut up! Not yet." and after punching it he says: "Just because you're a god, you can't go deciding what other people's limits are." Goku himself admits that he broke his limits and the dialogues make it all the more clear.

In the very next episode, the narrator and Vegeta both say that "Goku has surpassed the level of Super Saiyan God."


There is overwhelming evidence for it and the context, the dialogues and the statements all support and solidify the feat in question. The only thing against it is incredulity. I thought I won't have to write this much once I made the blog because everything is already written in it.
 
I'm also not arguing that Goku absorbed the power of SSJG into base, nor that he got stronger. I'm calling bs on him getting so much stronger that the post-SSG-absorption SSJ is Equal to Goku's immediate base after dropping out of that form.
 
And I apologize for being rude in return. We good?

I noticed I didn't add the last part about the narrator's and Vegeta's statement of Goku surpassing the level of SSG in the blog. I will add them too.
 
For your first points, that could still be because he went from normal ki blasts and punches to a kamehameha rather than getting another boost.

The 'you can't decide other's limits' part literally comes right before Goku goes down for the count. Breaking his limits in this context sounds more like he could go beyond what he usually could for a while rather than him becoming 40x stronger in 30 seconds permanently.

Surpassing SSJG could still be refering to his SSJ form.

I was under the notion that Base = SSJG was more of a comparable thing rather than base >>> SSJ >> SSJG. Kinda like how SSJ2 and 3 are comparable but not absolutely equals.

Though, tbh, not sure why we're arguing this. Not like "Base Goku immediately after Beerus fight but before RoF" is a tab or scalable in any valuable way.
 
The real cal howard said:
I'm also not arguing that Goku absorbed the power of SSJG into base, nor that he got stronger. I'm calling bs on him getting so much stronger that the post-SSG-absorption SSJ is Equal to Goku's immediate base after dropping out of that form.
Click to expand...
Tbh, I would've called bs on that too if no explanation was given to us. But those lines were specifically put there to justify Goku's actions. Do I think it's a big boost? Yes, If I were to write it I would've made Goku punch it as a SSJ. But should I ignore the whole thing just because of that? No, because they gave an explanation for why it happened.

@SD

That line from Goku was a direct answer to Beerus' question. Beerus teased him with a question, Goku answered he was not at his limit yet, he proved it by punching the energy and with a smile of a winner he was like "see, you can't go deciding my limits like that...i just broke them dude".

Anyway, I digresss now. It's almost time to make another thread.
 
Is it true that Toei purposefully refused to give us actual high-quality audio for DBZ and lazily went in for DBZ Kai?
 
Elizhaa said:
Never really about this point: Empty VOid We have standard for Timeless Voids Standards so going by definition, the 3-A's feat could have been Low 2-C as the universe would have become a void- which is timeless by nature- hence time, not just space would have been destroyed.

Honestly, to me, this tier would make sense as God of Destruction like Beerus and Champa can destroy their universes in their battle, and scale to Toppo.

And, Beerus holding back to infinite against Goku, Gods stating that Goku Blue was compared to rivaling a God- seems improbable to me to be just 3-A.

Also, the Low 2-C would solve the Power-up that goes to infinite like Kefla, and Broly (Dragon Ball Super) issue.
Click to expand...
Correct if I am wrong, but im pretty sure the more accurate translation states "vaccuum" instead of void, which would actually disprove tier 2.
 
Goku Blacc, can you elaborate and this is the Japanese sub so there less likely to translation errors compared to the dubs?
 
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