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Dragon Ball Super Discussion Thread 32
- Thread starter Dragonmasterxyz
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Same.Ryukama said:
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Also if the Freeza fight was 5 minutes....God only knows how long this is gonna be. XD
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inb4 Hit solos everyone XD
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Hit's time stop powers should allow him to effortlessly defeat everyone except Goku.
He just freezes time and throws everyone outside of the ring. His absurd speed would more than easily allow him to throw 70 people out a ring even in just .5 seconds.
Plot's probably gonna prevent this from happening though.
He just freezes time and throws everyone outside of the ring. His absurd speed would more than easily allow him to throw 70 people out a ring even in just .5 seconds.
Plot's probably gonna prevent this from happening though.
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I kinda feel like part of the way through there wil be a major obstruction or something like that which will prevent the tournament from being completed
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I feel like the Daishinkan is gonna do something. He's obviously manipulating the rules here. I just wanna see Dragon God Zarama...simply due to him being a Dragon God xD
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Also, in the latest episode...
Goku: "Limitless, huh? I've been wanting to fight someone like that!"
Gee, I wonder what that is a reference to. xD
Goku: "Limitless, huh? I've been wanting to fight someone like that!"
Gee, I wonder what that is a reference to. xD
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If Hit were smart, he'd freeze time, throw everyone but his U6 team out of the ring. Then while the other fighters hide and do nothing, Hit holds Goku off at least until the 48 minutes is up and U6 wins via having the most fighters remaining.
ovo
ovo
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That would be the logical decision...but this is Dragon Ball i.e no one will think logically xDRyukama said:
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People were saying since the Void has no time Hit's tokitobashi might not work, meaning he would only be limited to his parallel world variation.
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Dragonmasterxyz said:
Hit has kinda been the exception thus far.
However, any fighters that rival Hit's power in the fight, may be able to resist time hax.
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Another good strategy I think would be pretending to fall out of the arena but then holding on to the very bottom of that topper. You technically didn't get knocked out of bounds and with nobody bothering to fight you any more, you can just hide there until the 48 minutes is up.
o v o
o v o
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RadicalMrR said:
I believe the void outside of the ring is what has no time. The ring is still a little pocket of spacetime.
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And they said that flying abilities in the void (outside the ring) will not work. So clearly there are different properties ouside the ring than inside. This probably includes a lack of time.
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Daishinkan didn't call him out for not going all-out instantly. He let him pump Bergamo up with power. Goku could have easily gradually gone up the stages, drawing out the fight for Bergamo to gain more and more power. If he slowly turned up the gas and ended on SSBKKx10 he would have still gone out, yet Bergamo would have been able to beat him with all the extra power he got from the previous transformations and SSB.Dragonmasterxyz said:
If forcing Begamo to power up was forbidden, as it would look like Goku was throwing the match on purpose, he would have been called out for it by Daishinkan in the actual fight. It wasn't, and thus Goku should have been able to give Bergamo the win by gradual power up rather than "Ha, SSJ? You mean SSBKKx10!?!" and one-shotting him.
Assuming that "Oh he can take my SSJ form, I am sure he can take my SSBKKx10 Kamehameha" is the most idiotic thing ever. If he really cared about the universes, a gradual increase in power to his max would have been the best way to go. That way Bergamo would have won and he would still have gone all-out. The only reason he didn't do this is because he knew Bergamo would beat him if he did. Even after he beat Bergamo he didn't look upset or crushed that he won. He is happy he won. He even taunts the other universes after this, not only nonchalantly dooming all the universes (which I previously established could have been saved by him), but rubbing salt in their wounds. Goku is, saiyan or not, evil.
As for excusing his actions in the first place (starting the tourney by asking Zen'o), no. Say this: There is a tumor in my friend's head that no one knows about. I have a gun and decide to shoot him in the head. I shoot the tumor out but now he may die of the gun wound. He has a chance to survive now, one he didn't before, but I still made a completely idiotic decision. He prevented an outcome that he had no knowledge about accidentally, even though the only outcomes he knew were: He gets a cool tournament/Zen'o does something crazy. Beerus warned him about this and he went against it. It may have stopped inevitable destruction, but the action itself was incredibly selfish and reckless.
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"Daishinkan didn't call him out for not going all-out instantly. He let him pump Bergamo up with power. Goku could have easily gradually gone up the stages, drawing out the fight for Bergamo to gain more and more power. If he slowly turned up the gas and ended on SSBKKx10 he would have still gone out, yet Bergamo would have been able to beat him with all the extra power he got from the previous transformations and SSB."
The fact of the matter is that he had to go all out and lose while going all out. He was obviously strengthening Bergamo.
"If forcing Begamo to power up was forbidden, as it would look like Goku was throwing the match on purpose, he would have been called out for it by Daishinkan in the actual fight. It wasn't, and thus Goku should have been able to give Bergamo the win by gradual power up rather than "Ha, SSJ? You mean SSBKKx10!?!" and one-shotting him."
Oh boy this is just horrible reasoning. No that would not mean throwing the fight on purpose. As long as he went all out and lost while going all out, it would be legit. Never said Bergamo getting power was forbidden. Bergamo simply could not take all of his power. Simple as that. Goku's statement before the Kamehameha was literally "Here's some more energy for you!"....
"Assuming that "Oh he can take my SSJ form, I am sure he can take my SSBKKx10 Kamehameha" is the most idiotic thing ever. If he really cared about the universes, a gradual increase in power to his max would have been the best way to go. That way Bergamo would have won and he would still have gone all-out. The only reason he didn't do this is because he knew Bergamo would beat him if he did. Even after he beat Bergamo he didn't look upset or crushed that he won. He is happy he won. He even taunts the other universes after this, not only nonchalantly dooming all the universes (which I previously established could have been saved by him), but rubbing salt in their wounds. Goku is, saiyan or not, evil."
You assume that's the reason with no evidence to back it up. When he won he was happy but also upset that Bergamo did not show his full potential. I've honestly countered the Goku is evil argument so many times that I'm no longer going to waste my time.
"As for excusing his actions in the first place (starting the tourney by asking Zen'o), no. Say this: There is a tumor in my friend's head that no one knows about. I have a gun and decide to shoot him in the head. I shoot the tumor out but now he may die of the gun wound. He has a chance to survive now, one he didn't before, but I still made a completely idiotic decision. He prevented an outcome that he had no knowledge about accidentally, even though the only outcomes he knew were: He gets a cool tournament/Zen'o does something crazy. Beerus warned him about this and he went against it. It may have stopped inevitable destruction, but the action itself was incredibly selfish and reckless."
That analogy was quite literally the worst one I've seen. The two situations are quite literally so different and irrelevant to each other it hurts. Goku has always been selfish...he's been like that since the manga, this is NOTHING new... We all know Goku is selfish, this is just another selfish moment of his. Nothing more, nothing less. Unless you say selfishness is evil as well.
The fact of the matter is that he had to go all out and lose while going all out. He was obviously strengthening Bergamo.
"If forcing Begamo to power up was forbidden, as it would look like Goku was throwing the match on purpose, he would have been called out for it by Daishinkan in the actual fight. It wasn't, and thus Goku should have been able to give Bergamo the win by gradual power up rather than "Ha, SSJ? You mean SSBKKx10!?!" and one-shotting him."
Oh boy this is just horrible reasoning. No that would not mean throwing the fight on purpose. As long as he went all out and lost while going all out, it would be legit. Never said Bergamo getting power was forbidden. Bergamo simply could not take all of his power. Simple as that. Goku's statement before the Kamehameha was literally "Here's some more energy for you!"....
"Assuming that "Oh he can take my SSJ form, I am sure he can take my SSBKKx10 Kamehameha" is the most idiotic thing ever. If he really cared about the universes, a gradual increase in power to his max would have been the best way to go. That way Bergamo would have won and he would still have gone all-out. The only reason he didn't do this is because he knew Bergamo would beat him if he did. Even after he beat Bergamo he didn't look upset or crushed that he won. He is happy he won. He even taunts the other universes after this, not only nonchalantly dooming all the universes (which I previously established could have been saved by him), but rubbing salt in their wounds. Goku is, saiyan or not, evil."
You assume that's the reason with no evidence to back it up. When he won he was happy but also upset that Bergamo did not show his full potential. I've honestly countered the Goku is evil argument so many times that I'm no longer going to waste my time.
"As for excusing his actions in the first place (starting the tourney by asking Zen'o), no. Say this: There is a tumor in my friend's head that no one knows about. I have a gun and decide to shoot him in the head. I shoot the tumor out but now he may die of the gun wound. He has a chance to survive now, one he didn't before, but I still made a completely idiotic decision. He prevented an outcome that he had no knowledge about accidentally, even though the only outcomes he knew were: He gets a cool tournament/Zen'o does something crazy. Beerus warned him about this and he went against it. It may have stopped inevitable destruction, but the action itself was incredibly selfish and reckless."
That analogy was quite literally the worst one I've seen. The two situations are quite literally so different and irrelevant to each other it hurts. Goku has always been selfish...he's been like that since the manga, this is NOTHING new... We all know Goku is selfish, this is just another selfish moment of his. Nothing more, nothing less. Unless you say selfishness is evil as well.
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Here's a compromise. Goku's good, but he's no hero.
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^This 100x over...The real cal howard said:
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@Dragon
I didn't attack your logic before, but since you clearly disrespected mine, I guess I don't need to censor myself. I really don't get your logic at all.
"No that would not mean throwing the fight on purpose. As long as he went all out and lost while going all out, it would be legit. Never said Bergamo getting power was forbidden."
Exactly my point.
"Bergamo simply could not take all of his power."
We have no way of knowing this. He literally went from SSJ to SSBKKx10. He skipped SSJ2, SSJ3, SSB, and all levels of power between them (low power SSB vs full power SSB). Bergamo kept getting stronger as he was hurt up until Goku transformed, and even temporarily pushed back Goku's attack. If Goku had used all these forms and more slowly pumped power into him, Bergamo would have likely won. Saying that Bergamo simply can't handle that much power is a baseless assumption and goes against all that we saw the character do.
Goku's statement before the Kamehameha was literally "Here's some more energy for you!"
Ever heard of sarcasm? Goku is battle-smart enough to know the difference between SSJ and SSBKKx10 is absolutely staggering, and that a blast from that kind of form against a previously SSJ contenting Bergamo would be too much. Even if he is just stupid and literally thought Bergamo could take it, why not do it in SSJ2, SSJ3, or even just SSB? Did he really think seeing Bergamo deal with SSJ was enough to jump to max power SSBKKx10? Goku may be dumb education-wise, but he has always been an intelligent fighter. I refused to believe he was being legitimate here.
"When he won he was happy but also upset that Bergamo did not show his full potential."
This is a glaring argument FOR ME. Being upset that Bergamo didn't show his full power instead of the fact that literally billions (likely far, far more) just got condemned by his own carelessness or pride is absolutely disgusting. Of course Zen'o/Daishinkan will be to blame directly, but it does not excuse Goku. If someone is going to detonate a nuke in the middle of New York and I can stop it by losing a fight, yet be convincing, you better believe I am going to find a way to convincingly throw that fight. Even if I get called out, so what? The bomb goes off anyway; woo-hoo. The risk of the destruction of one more universe in addition to all the others about to die is worth the reward of saving them all.
"That analogy was quite literally the worst one I've seen. The two situations are quite literally so different and irrelevant to each other it hurts."
It was an off the cuff analogy that I still think does hold some water. Also, I seriously doubt it is the "quite literally the worst one" you've seen. Give me a break.
As for Goku being evil, we will merely have to agree to disagree.
I didn't attack your logic before, but since you clearly disrespected mine, I guess I don't need to censor myself. I really don't get your logic at all.
"No that would not mean throwing the fight on purpose. As long as he went all out and lost while going all out, it would be legit. Never said Bergamo getting power was forbidden."
Exactly my point.
"Bergamo simply could not take all of his power."
We have no way of knowing this. He literally went from SSJ to SSBKKx10. He skipped SSJ2, SSJ3, SSB, and all levels of power between them (low power SSB vs full power SSB). Bergamo kept getting stronger as he was hurt up until Goku transformed, and even temporarily pushed back Goku's attack. If Goku had used all these forms and more slowly pumped power into him, Bergamo would have likely won. Saying that Bergamo simply can't handle that much power is a baseless assumption and goes against all that we saw the character do.
Goku's statement before the Kamehameha was literally "Here's some more energy for you!"
Ever heard of sarcasm? Goku is battle-smart enough to know the difference between SSJ and SSBKKx10 is absolutely staggering, and that a blast from that kind of form against a previously SSJ contenting Bergamo would be too much. Even if he is just stupid and literally thought Bergamo could take it, why not do it in SSJ2, SSJ3, or even just SSB? Did he really think seeing Bergamo deal with SSJ was enough to jump to max power SSBKKx10? Goku may be dumb education-wise, but he has always been an intelligent fighter. I refused to believe he was being legitimate here.
"When he won he was happy but also upset that Bergamo did not show his full potential."
This is a glaring argument FOR ME. Being upset that Bergamo didn't show his full power instead of the fact that literally billions (likely far, far more) just got condemned by his own carelessness or pride is absolutely disgusting. Of course Zen'o/Daishinkan will be to blame directly, but it does not excuse Goku. If someone is going to detonate a nuke in the middle of New York and I can stop it by losing a fight, yet be convincing, you better believe I am going to find a way to convincingly throw that fight. Even if I get called out, so what? The bomb goes off anyway; woo-hoo. The risk of the destruction of one more universe in addition to all the others about to die is worth the reward of saving them all.
"That analogy was quite literally the worst one I've seen. The two situations are quite literally so different and irrelevant to each other it hurts."
It was an off the cuff analogy that I still think does hold some water. Also, I seriously doubt it is the "quite literally the worst one" you've seen. Give me a break.
As for Goku being evil, we will merely have to agree to disagree.
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Again, Goku isn't evil. He also hasn't condemned anyone. Zen'o and, more than likely, the Grand Priest wanted to get rid of more universes. Goku simply wanted to have a multi-versal tournament and fight some new and strong opponents. To get the feeling he got when he fought Hit, all over again.
It was Zen'o and the Grand Priest who turned this into a deadly game of who's universe gets destroyed. If they hadn't used the Tournament of Power they would have just done something else...
Goku has always been selfish when it comes to fighting. Goku was never meant to be a hero, as we would define it. He a generally nice, laid back guy whose biggest passion is fighting. That's it.
As for his reaction to the Universe's being destroyed: what's he supposed to do? He did ask if he should try and talk Zen'o out of it. He was shot down by Whis. All he can do is fight anyway.
It was Zen'o and the Grand Priest who turned this into a deadly game of who's universe gets destroyed. If they hadn't used the Tournament of Power they would have just done something else...
Goku has always been selfish when it comes to fighting. Goku was never meant to be a hero, as we would define it. He a generally nice, laid back guy whose biggest passion is fighting. That's it.
As for his reaction to the Universe's being destroyed: what's he supposed to do? He did ask if he should try and talk Zen'o out of it. He was shot down by Whis. All he can do is fight anyway.
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"I didn't attack your logic before, but since you clearly disrespected mine, I guess I don't need to censor myself. I really don't get your logic at all.
"No that would not mean throwing the fight on purpose. As long as he went all out and lost while going all out, it would be legit. Never said Bergamo getting power was forbidden."
Exactly my point."
First off, I insulted you because I went against your logic? Give me a break. And how about you not cut off my post on a part that works well for you. I clearly had a sentence under that, that explained my reason. But I will address that next.
"We have no way of knowing this. He literally went from SSJ to SSBKKx10. He skipped SSJ2, SSJ3, SSB, and all levels of power between them. Bergamo kept getting stronger as he was hurt up until Goku transformed, and even temporarily pushed back Goku's attack. If Goku had used all these forms and more slowly pumped power into him, Bergamo would have likely won. Saying that Bergamo simply can't handle that much power is a baseless assumption and goes against all that we saw the character do."
...Seriously? We literally see him go down to SSBKK...Heck you say KKx10 when it was simply Kaioken...So no it isn't a baseless assumption.
"Ever heard of sarcasm? Goku is battle-smart enough to know the difference between SSJ and SSBKKx10 is absolutely staggering, and that a blast from that kind of form against a previously SSJ contenting Bergamo would be too much. Even if he is just stupid and literally thought Bergamo could take it, why not do it in SSJ2, SSJ3, or even just SSB? Did he really think seeing Bergamo deal with SSJ was enough to jump to max power SSBKKx10? Goku may be dumb education-wise, but he has always been an intelligent fighter. I refused to believe he was being legitimate here."
No I think sarcasm is some kind of food...I'm no fool. And yes why not? He clearly was contending with the kamehameha before Goku powered it up. So yes Goku assumed he could take it. Hell Goku assumed he could still fight afterwards. Also your decision.
"This is a glaring argument FOR ME. Being upset that Bergamo didn't show his full power instead of the fact that literally billions (likely far, far more) just got condemned by his own carelessness or pride is absolutely disgusting. Of course Zen'o/Daishinkan will be to blame directly, but it does not excuse Goku. If someone is going to detonate a nuke in the middle of New York and I can stop it by losing a fight, yet be convincing, you better believe I am going to find a way to convincingly throw that fight. Even if I lose, so what? The bomb goes off anyway; woo-hoo. The destruction of one more universe in addition to all the others about to die is a risk worth saving them all."
This is no simple fight when you are dealing with GODS...Seriously you act as if you know Goku when you clearly do not. If Bergamo didn't show his true potential then he could NOT have beaten Goku. Honestly, you are also painting Goku to be a righteous hero in which he NEVER WAS. You expect someone to make the righteous choice all the time. if they don't "Oh they're evil" That is honestly idiotic logic.
"It was an off the cuff analogy that I still think does hold some water. Also, I seriously doubt it is the "quite literally the worst one" you've seen. Give me a break."
Yes it is actually. You are comparing a tumor (in which you could at least try going to a hospital for) to the destruction of universes. The scale is completely wrong. Goku simply asked for a tournament not expecting any penalties or destruction, while your analogy clearly shows that the shooter has knowledge of said penalty.
"As for Goku being evil, we will merely have to agree to disagree."
There is no agree to disagree. You are abusing to term evil here. Evil is and I quote "profoundly immoral and malevolent.". Goku is not immoral or malevolent.....
I am done with this as this will do nothing more than piss me off even more...
"No that would not mean throwing the fight on purpose. As long as he went all out and lost while going all out, it would be legit. Never said Bergamo getting power was forbidden."
Exactly my point."
First off, I insulted you because I went against your logic? Give me a break. And how about you not cut off my post on a part that works well for you. I clearly had a sentence under that, that explained my reason. But I will address that next.
"We have no way of knowing this. He literally went from SSJ to SSBKKx10. He skipped SSJ2, SSJ3, SSB, and all levels of power between them. Bergamo kept getting stronger as he was hurt up until Goku transformed, and even temporarily pushed back Goku's attack. If Goku had used all these forms and more slowly pumped power into him, Bergamo would have likely won. Saying that Bergamo simply can't handle that much power is a baseless assumption and goes against all that we saw the character do."
...Seriously? We literally see him go down to SSBKK...Heck you say KKx10 when it was simply Kaioken...So no it isn't a baseless assumption.
"Ever heard of sarcasm? Goku is battle-smart enough to know the difference between SSJ and SSBKKx10 is absolutely staggering, and that a blast from that kind of form against a previously SSJ contenting Bergamo would be too much. Even if he is just stupid and literally thought Bergamo could take it, why not do it in SSJ2, SSJ3, or even just SSB? Did he really think seeing Bergamo deal with SSJ was enough to jump to max power SSBKKx10? Goku may be dumb education-wise, but he has always been an intelligent fighter. I refused to believe he was being legitimate here."
No I think sarcasm is some kind of food...I'm no fool. And yes why not? He clearly was contending with the kamehameha before Goku powered it up. So yes Goku assumed he could take it. Hell Goku assumed he could still fight afterwards. Also your decision.
"This is a glaring argument FOR ME. Being upset that Bergamo didn't show his full power instead of the fact that literally billions (likely far, far more) just got condemned by his own carelessness or pride is absolutely disgusting. Of course Zen'o/Daishinkan will be to blame directly, but it does not excuse Goku. If someone is going to detonate a nuke in the middle of New York and I can stop it by losing a fight, yet be convincing, you better believe I am going to find a way to convincingly throw that fight. Even if I lose, so what? The bomb goes off anyway; woo-hoo. The destruction of one more universe in addition to all the others about to die is a risk worth saving them all."
This is no simple fight when you are dealing with GODS...Seriously you act as if you know Goku when you clearly do not. If Bergamo didn't show his true potential then he could NOT have beaten Goku. Honestly, you are also painting Goku to be a righteous hero in which he NEVER WAS. You expect someone to make the righteous choice all the time. if they don't "Oh they're evil" That is honestly idiotic logic.
"It was an off the cuff analogy that I still think does hold some water. Also, I seriously doubt it is the "quite literally the worst one" you've seen. Give me a break."
Yes it is actually. You are comparing a tumor (in which you could at least try going to a hospital for) to the destruction of universes. The scale is completely wrong. Goku simply asked for a tournament not expecting any penalties or destruction, while your analogy clearly shows that the shooter has knowledge of said penalty.
"As for Goku being evil, we will merely have to agree to disagree."
There is no agree to disagree. You are abusing to term evil here. Evil is and I quote "profoundly immoral and malevolent.". Goku is not immoral or malevolent.....
I am done with this as this will do nothing more than piss me off even more...
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I think the main point is if Goku could get away with just using SSJ1 and constantly giving Bergamo more and more power without Daishinkan calling him out for holding back, he should have been capable of at least staying in that form and allowing Bergamo to get strong enough to beat SSJ1. But instead he immediately goes to SSB KK x 10 and practically one shots him.
There was a very good opportunity for Goku to have thrown the fight and get away with it, yet he didn't take it. Though I guess that can be more of a statements to his utter stupidity rather than having an evil nature.
There was a very good opportunity for Goku to have thrown the fight and get away with it, yet he didn't take it. Though I guess that can be more of a statements to his utter stupidity rather than having an evil nature.
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"I think the main point is if Goku could get away with just using SSJ1 and constantly giving Bergamo more and more power without Daishinkan calling him out for holding back, he should have been capable of at least staying in that form and allowing Bergamo to get strong enough to beat SSJ1. But instead he immediately goes to SSB KK x 10 and practically one shots him."
At the same exact time Zeno knew about SSB and SSBKK and thus if he kept with SSJ and lost Zeno would have known. And based on Goku's quote afterward he assumed Bergamo could take it. It is more of idiocy than him being evil.
At the same exact time Zeno knew about SSB and SSBKK and thus if he kept with SSJ and lost Zeno would have known. And based on Goku's quote afterward he assumed Bergamo could take it. It is more of idiocy than him being evil.
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@Ryukama
Exactly my point; I am glad someone can see it. Considering how Goku has shown to be resourceful and cunning in fights before, I believe that it was not Goku's stupidity driving the decision, but rather his outrageous ego. That is up for debate though.
I believe that if they do try to justify this, though, it is bad writing.
Exactly my point; I am glad someone can see it. Considering how Goku has shown to be resourceful and cunning in fights before, I believe that it was not Goku's stupidity driving the decision, but rather his outrageous ego. That is up for debate though.
I believe that if they do try to justify this, though, it is bad writing.
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@Dragon
Goku loves to naturally pump up his battles. I doubt Zen'o would call that out. Even if he did, he could just go SSB and start fighting like that. Going from SSJ all the way to SSBKK (even if it wasn't x10 it doesn't matter, it is still a freaking HUGE jump) was clearly going to overwhelm Bergamo. Going SSB then slowing powering up would satisfy Zen'o (keep in mind, this is an exhibition match, made for entertainment) while giving Bergamo the power he needed to overcome the incoming SSBKK Kamehameha. Instead Goku opted for a one-shot.
Goku loves to naturally pump up his battles. I doubt Zen'o would call that out. Even if he did, he could just go SSB and start fighting like that. Going from SSJ all the way to SSBKK (even if it wasn't x10 it doesn't matter, it is still a freaking HUGE jump) was clearly going to overwhelm Bergamo. Going SSB then slowing powering up would satisfy Zen'o (keep in mind, this is an exhibition match, made for entertainment) while giving Bergamo the power he needed to overcome the incoming SSBKK Kamehameha. Instead Goku opted for a one-shot.
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And thus this paints him as evil? No it does not. It was pure stupidity, not him being immoral or malicious as you set him up to be. I don't understand how any of this makes Goku. Nothing he has done nor any of his actions make him evil. They show him as selfish and idiotic. Similar to how he let the andriods come around. Similar to how he left his own son behind when Buu destroyed the planets. Similar to how he kept letting Frieza go. Similar to how he gave Cell a Senzu Bean.Assaltwaffle said:
I'll admit I was very aggavated when commenting with you in which caused me to be aggressive. That was wrong of me and I apologize. However, I am sick and tired of people calling Goku "Evil" when his actions more or not are only selfish and naive.
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- #112
"Goku loves to naturally pump up his battles. I doubt Zen'o would call that out. Even if he did, he could just go SSB and start fighting like that. Going from SSJ all the way to SSBKK (even if it wasn't x10 it doesn't matter, it is still a freaking HUGE jump) was clearly going to overwhelm Bergamo. Going SSB then slowing powering up would satisfy Zen'o (keep in mind, this is an exhibition match, made for entertainment) while giving Bergamo the power he needed to overcome the incoming SSBKK Kamehameha. Instead Goku opted for a one-shot."
As I said it shows more towards Goku being an idiot then evil. He assumed Bergamo could take it. Did he think it through? No he did not. There are MANY examples in Z of him doing things that would threaten the Earth and everyone he cares about. One obvious one is giving Cell a Senzu...
As I said it shows more towards Goku being an idiot then evil. He assumed Bergamo could take it. Did he think it through? No he did not. There are MANY examples in Z of him doing things that would threaten the Earth and everyone he cares about. One obvious one is giving Cell a Senzu...
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Yeah I suppose that plan would have still failed since Zen'ō knows what SSB is and can likely sense powers levels. Though I doubt Goku actually contemplated that. And on the other hand if the Zen'ōs were fine with him using SSJ1 for pretty much the entire fight until the last moment, it doesn't seem likely they were ever going to make a stink about him holding back.
Regardless Goku at best is neutral in this situation. He clearly doesn't care "that" much about the death and annihilation of decillions of innocent life forms and has very easily accepted the futility of the situation without much turmoil.
I think Goku is very wreckless, does not think or care about the consequences of his actions and while he does at times clearly care for the well being of others, it kinda takes a back seat to his kung fu training. But I wouldn't call him evil in the vein Frieza or Buu is.
I just wonder how Funimation is going to handle this arc lol
Regardless Goku at best is neutral in this situation. He clearly doesn't care "that" much about the death and annihilation of decillions of innocent life forms and has very easily accepted the futility of the situation without much turmoil.
I think Goku is very wreckless, does not think or care about the consequences of his actions and while he does at times clearly care for the well being of others, it kinda takes a back seat to his kung fu training. But I wouldn't call him evil in the vein Frieza or Buu is.
I just wonder how Funimation is going to handle this arc lol
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- Thread starter
- #114
@Ryu I think it is moreso as long as he didn't lose like that. However, like you said Goku did not contemplate anything. He just assumed Bergamo could take it.
Goku has never cared much about that stuff like ever. He simply is rolling with the punches. And he's gonna enjoy the fights while he can.
Goku has never cared much about that stuff like ever. He simply is rolling with the punches. And he's gonna enjoy the fights while he can.
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I will gladly call someone who is selfish to the point that they will risk trillions of lives to get their metaphorical fighting "high" evil any day of the week. You are bored and want to fight? Too bad. Sit down and live a normal life until the situation arises that you can fight without threatening multiversal balance. Goku is basically a universal Lord Boros at this point. Being selfish at this level is absolutely profoundly immoral.
As for the other instances, yeah. Goku is still wrong during those events. I am already sick of superheroes letting genocidal maniacs free because they "won't kill", but to do it because you get a kick off of fighting them? That is so wrong.
Goku's character is a walking contradiction. In some scenes he is angry over a villain's destructive acts and seeks to put them down, yet he also lets them go or helps them just to fight them, essentially aiding the perpetuation of the acts he seems to dislike. He gets mad over Black's killing of Goten and Chi-chi, yet he helped Cell out and didn't kill Buu when he could, thereby putting their lives in danger. If you really care, protect them! If you say you care about something and yet make no move to act for it's good or protection, rather your own selfish desire, you're a hypocrite. Either be a battle-crazed narcissist or a hero, but you can't be both.
Don't get me wrong, I never liked Goku for this, but now he is just on another level. I could write an essay on Goku's character being evil with all the material they have given (of course that depends on what you classify as evil [I certainly think endangering billions for your own fun classifies as evil, though]).
As for the other instances, yeah. Goku is still wrong during those events. I am already sick of superheroes letting genocidal maniacs free because they "won't kill", but to do it because you get a kick off of fighting them? That is so wrong.
Goku's character is a walking contradiction. In some scenes he is angry over a villain's destructive acts and seeks to put them down, yet he also lets them go or helps them just to fight them, essentially aiding the perpetuation of the acts he seems to dislike. He gets mad over Black's killing of Goten and Chi-chi, yet he helped Cell out and didn't kill Buu when he could, thereby putting their lives in danger. If you really care, protect them! If you say you care about something and yet make no move to act for it's good or protection, rather your own selfish desire, you're a hypocrite. Either be a battle-crazed narcissist or a hero, but you can't be both.
Don't get me wrong, I never liked Goku for this, but now he is just on another level. I could write an essay on Goku's character being evil with all the material they have given (of course that depends on what you classify as evil [I certainly think endangering billions for your own fun classifies as evil, though]).
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I don't know much about Dragonball, since I don't particularly care for it, but from what I've heard from friends and what I've read makes me inclined to agree with DragonMaster. He just wanted to have a good fighting tournament, how was he supposed to know they were going to put such massive stakes behind it? Also, only the winner's universe survives, right? He's fighting for the people living in his own universe, and even if he's having fun while doing it, I don't see how that makes him evil.
Also, I'd argue that him trying to fight fair makes him even more good than evil, since killing is wrong and if you hate it so much why would you do it?
Again, I don't know Dragonball very well, so I may not fully understand whats happening, but I agree that he's just selfish and idiotic at most, not really evil.
Also, I'd argue that him trying to fight fair makes him even more good than evil, since killing is wrong and if you hate it so much why would you do it?
Again, I don't know Dragonball very well, so I may not fully understand whats happening, but I agree that he's just selfish and idiotic at most, not really evil.
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@DerpCity
Well Beerus warned Goku that if he asked for the tournament, something bad may happen. Of course he never anticipated the current result, but he didn't care if something bad would happen (as Beerus warned of) and asked for the tournament anyway.
Only the winner's universe survives UNLESS he lost to Bergamo while at max power. If he lost, ALL universes survive. He didn't search for a way to throw the fight, and just wanted to have some fun. He could have saved billions upon billions of lives by trying to convincing throw the fight, but didn't care to try. He complained that Bergamo didn't show his full potential, yet he is essentially talking to someone he knows he has just let die (worse than death, since he will be deleted entirely) in a very casual and demeaning way.
Trying to fight fair is good normally, since there is no risk of something terrible happening as the result of a loss. In DB the situation is not normal. If Goku lets the evil planet busting villains live, he is risking the lives of everyone. If kills the villain where they stand (provided he can) he protects all their lives, and thus has made the correct moral decision.
Goku's selfishness is evil. You can call it neutral, but I believe it is evil.
Well Beerus warned Goku that if he asked for the tournament, something bad may happen. Of course he never anticipated the current result, but he didn't care if something bad would happen (as Beerus warned of) and asked for the tournament anyway.
Only the winner's universe survives UNLESS he lost to Bergamo while at max power. If he lost, ALL universes survive. He didn't search for a way to throw the fight, and just wanted to have some fun. He could have saved billions upon billions of lives by trying to convincing throw the fight, but didn't care to try. He complained that Bergamo didn't show his full potential, yet he is essentially talking to someone he knows he has just let die (worse than death, since he will be deleted entirely) in a very casual and demeaning way.
Trying to fight fair is good normally, since there is no risk of something terrible happening as the result of a loss. In DB the situation is not normal. If Goku lets the evil planet busting villains live, he is risking the lives of everyone. If kills the villain where they stand (provided he can) he protects all their lives, and thus has made the correct moral decision.
Goku's selfishness is evil. You can call it neutral, but I believe it is evil.
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Wait, if Goku lost, every universe lived?
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Yep. If he kept pumping up Bergamo and then Bergamo defeated him, all universes survive and no one dies.The real cal howard said:
https://youtu.be/QOVtF-XhNS0?t=4m7s
He instant he heard that, if he was good, he would be trying to find a way to throw the fight, even with the stipulation Daishinkan put on him.
It looks like he wasn't even considering it to begin with. "Right. I don't like losin' either." Even if Daishinkan didn't put that rule on him, I doubt Goku would have cared to throw the match in his current state. He isn't shocked or worried by the fact that Daishinkan put that rule on him or, even if he views throwing as impossible now, he doesn't have a chance of saving them all. He is smiling and rearing to go the whole time.
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That's not true either. Goku has done heroic things plenty of times in the past, especially in early Dragon Ball.The real cal howard said:
Goku is just not Superman, or any typical American superhero, where they have a highly idealized personality with virtually no moral flaws.
Goku is not designed based on idealism. He's a man with flaws, just like most of us here and most people you personally know in real life. Japan doesn't make highly idealized protagonists like the western world does and that's what people need to understand.
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