Dragon Ball Super Discussion Thread 100

[Dagoth_OwO]

Nice. I also seem to remember that was calc'd a while back.

It was in the billions c. iirc but can't say for certain

 

[AguilaR202]

.

Alright MAGGOTS listen up!

Because of infinite universes, we have couple of problems with our speed values for Toei crossing the universe/DBS shockwave stuff. All of these gotta go. These are either infinite speed feats (oh god, oh ****), or just unusable.

We need a backup in case infinite is rejected (which unfortunately, is the likelier scenario).

Gas has a MFTL+ flight feat in the manga, so that one is covered. But we need other feats for earlier arcs.

In the anime, there's a MFTL+ flight speed from the parasite being-thingy arc, which also works perfectly and is early enough into the series that we can apply good ol' multiplier abuse

Toei/GT, on the other hand, is quite tricky. I don't remember good feats off the top of my head, so we gotta search for some.

Again, this is may be the slightly less worse case scenario (the worse case is default to multiplier stuff from Buu Saga onwards, which jesus christ pls no), but it's also the more likely one. So we need to compile these feats pronto.

Toei still has namek saga Goku being faster than his spaceship from

1) using his kamehameha as propellant to save it from a direct collision with a star and

2) from his SS1 top speed being too fast for Kaio to track having been able to do so as he was traveling in his spaceship

Other feats would default to infinite speeds because characters are crossing large portions of the universe, blitzing IT or reacting to energy gathered across the Universe.

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

.

Toei still has namek saga Goku being faster than his spaceship from

1) using his kamehameha as propellant to save it from a direct collision with a star and

2) from his SS1 top speed being too fast for Kaio to track having been able to do so as he was traveling in his spaceship

Other feats would default to infinite speeds because characters are crossing large portions of the universe, blitzing IT or reacting to energy gathered across the Universe.

That spaceship feat is so lowballed it’s insane

also crossing distances in the universe isn’t infinite speed unless you travel across the whole universe

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

also crossing distances in the universe isn’t infinite speed unless you travel across the whole universe

What if the universe has two infinities in it? The light consisting of the quadrants which contain infinite galaxies is referred to as an infinite spread, and its surrounded by darkness, which of course is infinite as well

 

[AguilaR202]

That spaceship feat is so lowballed it’s insane

It’s actually probably in the billions of c since Namek isn’t even on the same galaxy quadrant as Earth, but maps portraying the distance would make it infinite because they’re close to a full universal radius apart according to them.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Zen'ō Special Edition

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

It’s actually probably in the billions of c since Namek isn’t even on the same galaxy quadrant as Earth, but maps portraying the distance would make it infinite because they’re close to a full universal radius apart according to them.

I mean if you look at the map the sections are divided outwards so you wouldn’t need to cross an infinite distance to travel to a quadrant but I think a couple million galaxies or billion galaxies would suffice

What if the universe has two infinities in it? The light consisting of the quadrants which contain infinite galaxies is referred to as an infinite spread, and its surrounded by darkness, which of course is infinite as well

Wdym

Zen'ō Special Edition

This crt is pretty useless

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

This crt is pretty useless

Just to add skills that Zen'ō has and the justifications lol

 

[CraigTucker]

I am bout to say this, since its accepted that the universe is infinite in dragon ball and dragon ball heroes share the same cosmology as db is there any chance for the tree size to be upgraded to infinite 3-A

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

I am bout to say this, since its accepted that the universe is infinite in dragon ball and dragon ball heroes share the same cosmology as db is there any chance for the tree size to be upgraded to infinite 3-A

The tree size was 2-C and I think is consistently bigger than Universes in the anime but galaxy sized in the arcade from what I’ve heard from @Ottavio_Merluzzo

 

[CraigTucker]

The tree size was 2-C and I think is consistently bigger than Universes in the anime but galaxy sized in the arcade from what I’ve heard from @Ottavio_Merluzzo

The arcade had a statement it affected the universe unless we accept that the cosmology are the same then there should be an upgrade here lmao

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

Can’t wait for the new manga fights someone should do a dbs manga vs dbs anime Goku fight and send links here so we can enter it

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Pretty sure CSSB Goku would tip the edge in Manga Goku's favor.

 

[AguilaR202]

Black arc manga Goku outscales the anime by a lot, considering anime black is only a 50x base increase with Rose but manga Rose is a full on base-to-SSB multiplier.

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

Black arc manga Goku outscales the anime by a lot, considering anime black is only a 50x base increase with Rose but manga Rose is a full on base-to-SSB multiplier.

SSJR is SSJGSS but for divine beings so it’s the same for manga and anime

 

[AguilaR202]

SSJR is SSJGSS but for divine beings so it’s the same for manga and anime

Nope, I recall a magazine says Blacks SSR is his version of SS1, he doesn’t even show golden haired forms in the anime, and scaling wise he was at SS2 Gokus level whilst still in base, also staggered a SSB Vegeta making his SSR being a much lesser increase viable.

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

Nope, I recall a magazine says Blacks SSR is his version of SS1, he doesn’t even show golden haired forms in the anime, and scaling wise he was at SS2 Gokus level whilst still in base, also staggered a SSB Vegeta making his SSR being a much lesser increase viable.

I recall toriyama notes stating Goku black has ssj and a ssj of a different color and a magazine saying ssjr is equal to ssjb

also he was comparable to blue vegeta somewhat and could take his punches at that point and then with rose clapped him which doesnt mean Ssjr isnt as strong as ssjb

since even in the manga ssj goku black folds ssjb vegega and ssjb vegeta later claps ssjr goku black

 

[AguilaR202]

I recall toriyama notes stating Goku black has ssj and a ssj of a different color and a magazine saying ssjr is equal to ssjb

also he was comparable to blue vegeta somewhat and could take his punches at that point and then with rose clapped him which doesnt mean Ssjr isnt as strong as ssjb

since even in the manga ssj goku black folds ssjb vegega and ssjb vegeta later claps ssjr goku black

The problem with Toriyamas notes is that they’re seldom implemented equally in the anime and manga, hence why CSSB exist and SSB KK only exists proper in the anime ( manga Gokus SSBKK is only his SSB powered up like the KK, it’s not the actual red aura KK)

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

The problem with Toriyamas notes is that they’re seldom implemented equally in the anime and manga, hence why CSSB exist and SSB KK only exists proper in the anime ( manga Gokus SSBKK is only his SSB powered up like the KK, it’s not the actual red aura KK)

Toriyamas make a plot line and the manga and anime choose what to do with it for the Goku black arc toriyama’s plot line probably wanted to make goku 10x stronger than vegeta hence vegeta’s 1/10th of ssjb and goku going kaioken x10 against Hit

And I’m pretty sure a magazine says ssjr=ssjb as well

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Can’t wait for the new manga fights someone should do a dbs manga vs dbs anime Goku fight and send links here so we can enter it

If I recall correctly the manga is 3 2-C whereas the anime is 3 2-C up to UIS Goku who scales above 3 GoDs clashing, which should be what? 9 2-C?

If that's correct then we can do the entire manga versus the anime up to UIS Goku, anything else would just be an ultra stomp unless we get some good arguments to upgrade the manga further.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Guys, I found definitive proof that DBS has another spacetime to qualify for 2-C, the lights dimension, Brolly and Gogeta were having the same effect in the movie than in the anime dbz, only they were obliterating the dimensional walls, in addition to having confirmation of another space-time, they had to distort space-time to enter the dimension of lights swirling.

Here is a chapter from the novel

https://vsbattles.com/threads/official-translation-requests-thread-new-forum.107531/post-5704252

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Guys, I found definitive proof that DBS has another spacetime to qualify for 2-C, the lights dimension, Brolly and Gogeta were having the same effect in the movie than in the anime dbz, only they were obliterating the dimensional walls, in addition to having confirmation of another space-time, they had to distort space-time to enter the dimension of lights swirling.

Here is a chapter from the novel

https://vsbattles.com/threads/official-translation-requests-thread-new-forum.107531/post-5704252

I'm a bit mixed on whether this is actually another dimension. Reading the translation it sounds like their clashing caused them to fight inside the cracked dimensional wall of reality rather than entering an entirely new dimension. What I'm most curious about is the part where it says Broly's aura was breaking down dimensions plural.

Overall to me, it sounds like Gogeta and Broly's fighting was actually breaking down the entire dimension and they fought between walls of the dimension rather than them fighting in some entirely new spacetime.

The question is, what does this actually mean? If they are literally breaking down the entire dimension then...what even is the dimension? Reading the VS Wiki's definition it's stated that our multiverse would be composed of 11 dimensions with time being the 4th dimension and Tier 2 feats are 4th-dimensional destruction.

Given that a 'dimension' apparently relates to EVERY universe and it's stated here that Gogeta and Broly were breaking down the dimensions, I feel like this could be argument for Gogeta and Broly breaking down the entire multiverse? So either the 12 Macrocosms in existence or possibly even collapsing every timeline in DB (Which would be 2-B).

What does everyone else think? How should breaking down dimensions be here? How would the wiki standards accept it? To me it sounds like this could be a valid argument for them destroying the dimensions making up the multiverse.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

I'm a bit mixed on whether this is actually another dimension. Reading the translation it sounds like their clashing caused them to fight inside the cracked dimensional wall of reality rather than entering an entirely new dimension. What I'm most curious about is the part where it says Broly's aura was breaking down dimensions plural.

Overall to me, it sounds like Gogeta and Broly's fighting was actually breaking down the entire dimension and they fought between walls of the dimension rather than them fighting in some entirely new spacetime.

The question is, what does this actually mean? If they are literally breaking down the entire dimension then...what even is the dimension? Reading the VS Wiki's definition it's stated that our multiverse would be composed of 11 dimensions with time being the 4th dimension and Tier 2 feats are 4th-dimensional destruction.

Given that a 'dimension' apparently relates to EVERY universe and it's stated here that Gogeta and Broly were breaking down the dimensions, I feel like this could be argument for Gogeta and Broly breaking down the entire multiverse? So either the 12 Macrocosms in existence or possibly even collapsing every timeline in DB (Which would be 2-B).

What does everyone else think? How should breaking down dimensions be here? How would the wiki standards accept it? To me it sounds like this could be a valid argument for them destroying the dimensions making up the multiverse.

I had never thought about it, but it seems firm.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

I had never thought about it, but it seems firm.

It depends on how dimensions actually work on a multiversal scale. I don't really know anything about the subject so hopefully someone else can explain whether I am correct.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

It depends on how dimensions actually work on a multiversal scale. I don't really know anything about the subject so hopefully someone else can explain whether I am correct.

I also don't understand anything about the subject, I also expect an explanation.

 

[CraigTucker]

I believe a thread should be made regarding the universe tree being above galaxy sized in the arcade

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

I believe a thread should be made regarding the universe tree being above galaxy sized in the arcade

Feel free to make one

 

[CraigTucker]

Feel free to make one

Oh ok but is there any evidence of the arcade canon to the dragon ball cosmology?

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

I believe a thread should be made regarding the universe tree being above galaxy sized in the arcade

Its already accepted that the Universe Tree is the maximum size of the DBS multiverse (54 space-time structures)

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

DBS Manga Scaling

2-C = Super Saiyan God Goku <<< RoF Base Goku

Super Saiyan Blue Goku: At least 2,500x

Super Saiyan Rosé Goku Black: At least 125,000x (Overpowered FT Saga SSB Vegeta and then regained his divinity, adding SSG to his Super Saiyan form)

Post-HTC Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta: At least 6,250,000x (Overpowered SSR Goku Black as a Super Saiyan God even ignoring the momentary switches to Super Saiyan Blue)

Ultra Instinct Omen Goku: At least 125,000,000x (Matched Jiren, who is significantly superior to Super Saiyan Blue Goku using Kaio-ken power-stressing to push his body to its absolute limits, meaning 20x)

Super Saiyan Blue Vegito: At least 31,250,000,000x (Effortlessly vaporized Fusion Zamasu's arm in base form and is significantly greater than the combined strength of Super Saiyan Blue Goku & Vegeta based on Gogeta's words of how fusion works for the two)

Super Saiyan Blue Gogeta: At least 31,250,000,000x (Significantly greater than the combined strength of Super Saiyan Blue Goku & Vegeta in base form. Due to being born at a much later time and from a significantly stronger Goku and Vegeta, he should be superior to Vegito from the Zamasu Saga)

GPP Saga Ultra Instinct Omen Goku: At least 31,250,000,000x (Should be superior to Gogeta Blue if Goku opting for his untrained use of this form prior to being unable to use the full state means anything)

Post-First Granolah Fight Super Saiyan Blue Goku: At least 31,250,000,000x (Can somewhat keep up with Dual-Eye Granolah)

Post-First Granolah Fight Ultra Instinct Goku: At least 625,000,000,000x

These are the raw numbers at the very least

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

And already am I making corrections to this

2-C = Super Saiyan God Goku <<< RoF Base Goku

Super Saiyan Blue Goku: At least 2,500x

Super Saiyan Rosé Goku Black: At least 125,000x (Overpowered FT Saga SSB Vegeta and then regained his divinity, adding SSG to his Super Saiyan form)

Post-HTC Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta: At least 6,250,000x (Overpowered SSR Goku Black as a Super Saiyan God even ignoring the momentary switches to Super Saiyan Blue)

Ultra Instinct Omen Goku: At least 125,000,000x (Matched Jiren, who is significantly superior to Super Saiyan Blue Goku using Kaio-ken power-stressing to push his body to its absolute limits, meaning 20x)

Super Saiyan Blue Vegito: At least 31,250,000,000x (Effortlessly vaporized Fusion Zamasu's arm in base form and is significantly greater than the combined strength of Super Saiyan Blue Goku & Vegeta based on Gogeta's words of how fusion works for the two)

Super Saiyan Blue Gogeta: At least 31,250,000,000x (Significantly greater than the combined strength of Super Saiyan Blue Goku & Vegeta in base form. Due to being born at a much later time and from a significantly stronger Goku and Vegeta, he should be superior to Vegito from the Zamasu Saga)

GPP Saga Ultra Instinct Omen Goku: At least 31,250,000,000x (Should be superior to Gogeta Blue if Goku opting for his untrained use of this form prior to being unable to use the full state means anything)

GPP Saga Ultra Instinct Goku: At least 62,500,000,000x (Took on Angel Moro, who possesses the combined power of Seven-Three Moro and Merus)

Post-First Granolah Fight Super Saiyan Blue Goku: At least 62,500,000,000x (Can somewhat keep up with Dual-Eye Granolah)

Post-First Granolah Fight Ultra Instinct Goku: At least 1,250,000,000,000x

 

[omegabronic]

Alright MAGGOTS listen up!

Because of infinite universes, we have couple of problems with our speed values for Toei crossing the universe/DBS shockwave stuff. All of these gotta go. These are either infinite speed feats (oh god, oh ****), or just unusable.

We need a backup in case infinite is rejected (which unfortunately, is the likelier scenario).

Gas has a MFTL+ flight feat in the manga, so that one is covered. But we need other feats for earlier arcs.

In the anime, there's a MFTL+ flight speed from the parasite being-thingy arc, which also works perfectly and is early enough into the series that we can apply good ol' multiplier abuse

Toei/GT, on the other hand, is quite tricky. I don't remember good feats off the top of my head, so we gotta search for some.

Again, this is may be the slightly less worse case scenario (the worse case is default to multiplier stuff from Buu Saga onwards, which jesus christ pls no), but it's also the more likely one. So we need to compile these feats pronto.

super manga does not scale to the universe crossing stuff like the anime does, so they are pretty much unchanged

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Alright MAGGOTS listen up!

Because of infinite universes, we have couple of problems with our speed values for Toei crossing the universe/DBS shockwave stuff. All of these gotta go. These are either infinite speed feats (oh god, oh ****), or just unusable.

We need a backup in case infinite is rejected (which unfortunately, is the likelier scenario).

Gas has a MFTL+ flight feat in the manga, so that one is covered. But we need other feats for earlier arcs.

In the anime, there's a MFTL+ flight speed from the parasite being-thingy arc, which also works perfectly and is early enough into the series that we can apply good ol' multiplier abuse

Toei/GT, on the other hand, is quite tricky. I don't remember good feats off the top of my head, so we gotta search for some.

Again, this is may be the slightly less worse case scenario (the worse case is default to multiplier stuff from Buu Saga onwards, which jesus christ pls no), but it's also the more likely one. So we need to compile these feats pronto.

So, about speed feats, there is no shortage of DB, I have one right here (just someone trying to calculate it) but I think it will be around 93 billion × greater than the speed of light

 

[omegabronic]

So, about speed feats, there is no shortage of DB, I have one right here (just someone trying to calculate it) but I think it will be around 93 billion × greater than the speed of light

Falls to the same problem lephyr presented, given the universe accepted size that is an infinite speed feat, also seems a lot like hyperbole

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

See the problem is that a lot of the feats are cross-quadrant, which of course falls to the same problem that Lephyr mentioned

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

So, about speed feats, there is no shortage of DB, I have one right here (just someone trying to calculate it) but I think it will be around 93 billion × greater than the speed of light

Seems like hyperbole considering Gohan didn't even up off the planet when he was blasted by the attack so it'd be a hyperbole or contradiction when its most likely a hyperbole

See the problem is that a lot of the feats are cross-quadrant, which of course falls to the same problem that Lephyr mentioned

Cross quadrant isn't really an issue but crossing the living world would be an issue because the distance between one galaxy and another can be finite

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Falls to the same problem lephyr presented, given the universe accepted size that is an infinite speed feat, also seems a lot like hyperbole

It's not a hyperbole, the same case occurred almost at the very end of the Boo saga where an energy was directed to the characters and crossed the entire planet and went into space, and also Akira toriyama doesn't waste his time working with hyperboles according to him.


Toriyama: Anyway, I don't waste a lot of time chatting about useless things. As a rule, you can understand content to some extent only with images, and words are nothing more than a supplement to them. I had it drilled into me by my first editor I guess you could say…. If you're going to go out and say something, then do something that further strengthens the characterization, is what I mean.

Source

And stop talking about hyperbole, since most of DB's powers are real quotes, Akira doesn't demonstrate hyperbole when expressing his power

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

It's not a hyperbole, the same case occurred almost at the very end of the Boo saga where an energy was directed to the characters and crossed the entire planet and went into space, and also Akira toriyama doesn't waste his time working with hyperboles according to him.


Toriyama: Anyway, I don't waste a lot of time chatting about useless things. As a rule, you can understand content to some extent only with images, and words are nothing more than a supplement to them. I had it drilled into me by my first editor I guess you could say…. If you're going to go out and say something, then do something that further strengthens the characterization, is what I mean.

Source

And stop talking about hyperbole, since most of DB's powers are real quotes, Akira doesn't demonstrate hyperbole when expressing his power

Seems like hyperbole considering Gohan didn't even up off the planet when he was blasted by the attack so it'd be a hyperbole or contradiction when its most likely a hyperbole

Cross quadrant isn't really an issue but crossing the living world would be an issue because the distance between one galaxy and another can be finite

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Seems like hyperbole considering Gohan didn't even up off the planet when he was blasted by the attack so it'd be a hyperbole or contradiction when its most likely a hyperbole

Cross quadrant isn't really an issue but crossing the living world would be an issue because the distance between one galaxy and another can be finite

The energy was stopped by Shin as it exploded.

 

[omegabronic]

It's not a hyperbole, the same case occurred almost at the very end of the Boo saga where an energy was directed to the characters and crossed the entire planet and went into space

that is not the same thing at all, also that is dimensional travel since it went from one space to another, so it isn't a quantifiable speed feat in the first place, also that is not much relevant to what i said

, and also Akira toriyama doesn't waste his time working with hyperboles according to him.


Toriyama: Anyway, I don't waste a lot of time chatting about useless things. As a rule, you can understand content to some extent only with images, and words are nothing more than a supplement to them. I had it drilled into me by my first editor I guess you could say…. If you're going to go out and say something, then do something that further strengthens the characterization, is what I mean.

Source

he said that he meant that for characterization specifically, not for feats of power or anything of the like