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Dragon ball intelligence rework

There's something quite interesting about predicting Hit's attacks. In fact, it has nothing to do with analytics, since Hit doesn't take any action before activating Toki Tobashi, and since he's a professional assassin whose skills allow him to hide Ki even for sensors like Son Goku (who can process Ki information across multiple galaxies in a few seconds, and can also sense God Ki), it's hardly possible to predict hit's actions analytically. In addition, we must take into account that for characters with MFTL+ speed, 0.1 seconds would be comparable to an eternity, and Goku not only predicts where Hit will hit(lol), but also predicts even his phrases in Toki Tobashi, and predicts his own phrases, thus being able to communicate with Hit. And yes, in the Manga it's stated that Goku is able to use Ki to ignore Toki Tobashi, but no such thing was stated in the Anime, so talking while Toki Tobashi is in effect is also part of what Goku predicts. He doesn't make decisions during Toki Tobashi's action, he predicts all of his and Hit's actions up to that point based on their battle and all the statements available. Plus, a few arcs later, Goku tells Hit that his Toki Tobashi will no longer work, meaning the limits of Goku's prediction have become beyond the evolution of Hit's abilities.

Base analytical prediction is level of TV-1 Goku(~His first Tenkaichi Budokai).
In addition, Goku's powers of divination have only increased throughout the story, becoming drastically higher after drinking Holy Water, and becoming even higher after training with Kami.
All of Goku's development, including his ability to process galactic-sized information and sense God Ki in a matter of seconds, was not enough to predict Hit's attacks.

I would also like to remind that Gohan's master, Muten Roshi, pointed out that it takes 50 years to learn Kame-Hame-Ha, yet the original Goku was able to learn the technique after seeing it only once and without Ki knowledge(There).
 
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Golden_Void said:
I wanna go even further on the Gohan point and just state that besides these just being legends, knowing every martial arts style on Earth is some BS. Some styles are incredibly gatekept, only passed down to certain people, lost to time etc. This statement wildly assumes that Gohan has some omniscient knowledge of every fighting style ever formed on the planet, which is obvious BS.
Click to expand...
While this is true, i wanna notice that Grandpa Gohan is taught martial arts by Master Roshi, who has lived and trained for over 300 years, so it makes sense that Grandpa Gohan is stated to be unrivaled in all forms of martial arts, at least in the span of 300 years. So i agree with Gohan having Genius. I can see Goku have at least Genius, possibly Extraordinary Genius.
 
Hi,

sorry for this messy post, I dont have much time but here are my two cents.

We shouldnt use Batman as a measure stick cause with the amount of combat feats he has, you could create a multi galactic sized penthouse ... the entire anime world doesnt hold a candle to it. No chance.

Mr. Gohan

Grandpa Gohans statement goes hand in hand with Roshis statement of "knowing every martial arts technique". The wording of the latter isnt as straightforward as Gohans but the way he asks the questions gives me the impression he must known ridiculous amount of martial arts moves.

The same book states that Goku is Earths greatest martial artist.

Statements like these were a big thing when it comes to "magic martial arts" mangas due multiple reasons (theres a reason why mangas are so cheap) and most of them wanted to keep it simple and pretty straightforward. We shouldnt forget the 80/90s used to be the thoughest era for mangakas where not having enough ink was still your best problem.

Sidenote: Grandpa Gohan knowing every martial art isnt BS. Fiction in general plays ping pong with laws of physics and violates logic itself. It just means that Granda Gohan does have every muscle memory possible with the perfect synergy, which isnt possible irl - the problem already starts with humans brain. Hey its fiction ...

Hakai

Another thing I want to add for manga Goku intelligence is Hakai. Usually technique like existence erasure, time travelling etc. are only copied by non martial artist. Techniques like the ones above are out of their reach from my expierence. Copying martial arts moves is easy cause thats their job, but seeing them copy exotic abilities like EE is rare as hell.

GoDs expierence

GoDs being jobbers/lazy by the end of their career doesnt really mean much when you are THAT old. Sleeping thousand or even ten thousand of years is like thorwing away 1-2 days for normal humans beings.

What we do know is they are fighters and their goal was to become the absolute strongest which means they spent a good chunk of their life in the ring.

UI going against their nature is a no brainer since Goku devlepoed its own version (manga) with emotions. Even Beerus managed to attain a form of UI. I mean "wasting" million of years training UI and still not reaching that level sounds hard but GoDs are almost immortal so who cares. Vegeta isnt "immortal" so he cant really waste that much time and thats why he didnt really stick to Ultra instinct. UI is the technique everyone wants - its the pinacle of fighting. Them doing a standing ovation just speaks volumes and just confirms they didnt lose the "fire in the belly" and deep down in their hearth they still want to achieve it.

I think its fair for both sites if we take 2/10 or maybe 1/10 of their lifetime as training time(?)


Beerus vs Goku battle

The skillful stuff in Goku/Beerus starts right at the beginning. We do know that KI is a skill that you have to master. The more KI you have, the harder it is to control. It seems you guys forgot the ridiculous growth during the battle which made the power even harder to control. For universes sake, Goku did a Albert Einstein movie - turned the endproduct into stronger waves to cause the least amount of damage to the entire universe. Imagin fighting a psycho like Beerus at MFTL+ speeds, doing all the nano skills management and trying to have some fun while having the lives of trillions in your back head.
Finding the right exact angle against Beerus is just the cherry on top.

If we add the 10-15 statements that gives Dragonball infinite size, it makes said feat even more impressive.

Goku predicting Hit

I wanna keep this short cause im not sure if I read it here. Its not impressive by human standards? With Hits body alone, there are 64 possiblities to destroy Goku during that hax. There are even more possibilites once you realize Hit can make said hax shorter or longer (nigh infinite possibilites). While it was never stated during the battle, Hits entire sthick is "improving" and him being 1000 year old/Best assassine of U6, such a decision mid battle isnt out of his realm.

No fking human in real life could predict that so cut the crap.

Bye.
 
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Broyswag said:
Hi,

sorry for this messy post, I dont have much time but here are my two cents.

We shouldnt use Batman as a measure stick cause with the amount of combat feats he has, you could create a multi galactic sized penthouse ... the entire anime world doesnt hold a candle to it. No chance.

Mr. Gohan

Grandpa Gohans statement goes hand in hand with Roshis statement of "knowing every martial arts technique". The wording of the latter isnt as straightforward as Gohans but the way he asks the questions gives me the impression he must known ridiculous amount of martial arts moves.

The same book states that Goku is Earths greatest martial artist.

Statements like these were a big thing when it comes to "magic martial arts" mangas due multiple reasons (theres a reason why mangas are so cheap) and most of them wanted to keep it simple and pretty straightforward. We shouldnt forget the 80/90s used to be the thoughest era for mangakas where not having enough ink was still your best problem.

Sidenote: Grandpa Gohan knowing every martial art isnt BS. Fiction in general plays ping pong with laws of physics and violates logic itself. It just means that Granda Gohan does have every muscle memory possible with the perfect synergy, which isnt possible irl - the problem already starts with humans brain. Hey its fiction ...

Hakai

Another thing I want to add for manga Goku intelligence is Hakai. Usually technique like existence erasure, time travelling etc. are only copied by non martial artist. Techniques like the ones above are out of their reach from my expierence. Copying martial arts moves is easy cause thats their job, but seeing them copy exotic abilities like EE is rare as hell.

GoDs expierence

GoDs being jobbers/lazy by the end of their career doesnt really mean much when you are THAT old. Sleeping thousand or even ten thousand of years is like thorwing away 1-2 days for normal humans beings.

What we do know is they are fighters and their goal was to become the absolute strongest which means they spent a good chunk of their life in the ring.

UI going against their nature is a no brainer since Goku devlepoed its own version (manga) with emotions. Even Beerus managed to attain a form of UI. I mean "wasting" million of years training UI and still not reaching that level sounds hard but GoDs are almost immortal so who cares. Vegeta isnt "immortal" so he cant really waste that much time and thats why he didnt really stick to Ultra instinct. UI is the technique everyone wants - its the pinacle of fighting. Them doing a standing ovation just speaks volumes and just confirms they didnt lose the "fire in the belly" and deep down in their hearth they still want to achieve it.

I think its fair for both sites if we take 2/10 or maybe 1/10 of their lifetime as training time(?)


Beerus vs Goku battle

The skillful stuff in Goku/Beerus starts right at the beginning. We do know that KI is a skill that you have to master. The more KI you have, the harder it is to control. It seems you guys forgot the ridiculous growth during the battle which made the power even harder to control. For universes sake, Goku did a Albert Einstein movie - turned the endproduct into stronger waves to cause the least amount of damage to the entire universe. Imagin fighting a psycho like Beerus at MFTL+ speeds, doing all the nano skills management and trying to have some fun while having the lives of trillions in your back head.
Finding the right exact angle against Beerus is just the cherry on top.

If we add the 10-15 statements that gives Dragonball infinite size, it makes said feat even more impressive.

Goku predicting Hit

I wanna keep this short cause im not sure if I read it here. Its not impressive by human standards? With Hits body alone, there are 64 possiblities to destroy Goku during that hax. There are even more possibilites once you realize Hit can make said hax shorter or longer (nigh infinite possibilites). While it was never stated during the battle, Hits entire sthick is "improving" and him being 1000 year old/Best assassine of U6, such a decision mid battle isnt out of his realm.

No fking human in real life could predict that so cut the crap.

Bye.
Click to expand...
W argument
 
If Antvasima is alright with Extraordinary Genius for combat intelligence, I suppose I am too. I just thought we had rules regarding Genius above for characters who are pure combat strategists/martial artists and not scientists.

And yeah, Batman is an example of using a combination of scientific genius and combat intelligence at the same time. And him using things such as the ability to calculate probability of every possible tactic his opponent uses against him to calculate a way out of a trap and what not. Which I agree that I am unsure if we could compare anyone from Dragon Ball using that. The best thing we have for genius level and/or above is characters being smart enough to recognize Ki distinctions; where they recognize someone's unique spiritual pattern as easily as machines detect unique fingerprints.

Otherwise, Broyswag did make some excellent points.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
If Antvasima is alright with Extraordinary Genius for combat intelligence, I suppose I am too. I just thought we had rules regarding Genius above for characters who are pure combat strategists/martial artists and not scientists.
Click to expand...
No, it is possible to receive higher than Genius combat intelligence, if it is clearly greatly superhuman. 🙏
 
Killerdrone123 said:
So do you agree with EG for goku
Click to expand...
Yes, but I just checked and I think that Medeus is correct in that we should write down some official instructions regarding combat intelligence. Nothing particularly fanciful should likely be needed, just that Extraordinary Genius means literally greatly blatantly superhuman combat skills that are not only dependent on speed and other superhuman physical abiloties, and perhaps that Supergenius would require combat feats of an infinite calculations and precision nature or similar, but the last definition needs further development. 🙏
 
LordGriffin1000 said:
I agree with Genius for Grampa Gohan, but I'm unsure on Goku getting extraordinary genius. Our line for intelligence combat wise (Extraordinary Genius) is finicky.

Gotta remember that some fighters just don't have the patience or fortitude to pull something off. While the Gods are really old, they could have just given up on attempting to achieve UI and focused on other things, we know they don't spend all their days training. Goku is just suppose to be that guy, a Saiyan, someone who surpasses expectations and limits. So while getting praise from the gods on achieving UI, I wouldn't say that's a solid justification as there are more factors than simply intelligence at play here. I don't think the other feats reach Extraordinary Genius either, high level of precision and and analytical prediction that a high level fighter like Goku can achieve but wouldn't break him past the Genius barrier.

Best I can say for Goku is Genius. I think possibly Extraordinary Genius could potentially work but I'm not sure.
Click to expand...
Hey! Sorry to bother you, but would you be fine with a full E.G. rating as of the new arguments and consensus?
 
I’ll change my vote to agree if the standards are simply “greatly above superhuman”, although I feel as though with standards that low just about any shonen or comic book hero with enough fights would qualify for such a low standard.
 
Meh, i already agreed with EG for UI stuff.......if "greatly above superhuman" is enough, i wonder if Kid Goku can get it?.........maybe not, but who knows
 
Alright it seems the crt is accepted after grace is done changes could be made

Thank you to mods and everyone for participating
 
Yeah I think Extraordinary Genius for Goku is fine (and Genius for Grandpa Gohan). Also, I think we should absolutely standardize how combat intelligence is rated. Personally, I think the only tier that shouldn't be possible to reach via pure combat intelligence is Supergenius, but that would be for this hypothetical thread
 
When Kurilin said Goku use Shunkan Idou to find Vegeta on Beerus planet, Goku did this, checked all that galaxies(in DB terminology it called «Nebulae») and stars in few seconds. I think this is above than just «genius». At least it much higher than grandpa Gohan abilities.
And such capabilities, such a huge speed of information processing was somehow enough to predict 0.1 second of Hit's Toki Tobashi.
 
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CloverDragon03 said:
Yeah I think Extraordinary Genius for Goku is fine (and Genius for Grandpa Gohan). Also, I think we should absolutely standardize how combat intelligence is rated. Personally, I think the only tier that shouldn't be possible to reach via pure combat intelligence is Supergenius, but that would be for this hypothetical thread
Click to expand...
Definitely agree with this (and the thread also)
 
LephyrTheRevanchist said:
Definitely agree with this (and the thread also)
Click to expand...
The only way I see "Supergenius" level combat intelligence working is a character basically a character having precognition/cosmic awareness that works on seeing an infinite number of alternate timelines which they use to dictate out of the infinite possible strategies that they are able to look at in such a short amount of time (Or long story short the god tiers of Xenoblade Chronicles). But yeah, no one in Dragon Ball qualifies that far.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
The only way I see "Supergenius" level combat intelligence working is a character basically a character having precognition/cosmic awareness that works on seeing an infinite number of alternate timelines which they use to dictate out of the infinite possible strategies that they are able to look at in such a short amount of time (Or long story short the god tiers of Xenoblade Chronicles). But yeah, no one in Dragon Ball qualifies that far.
Click to expand...
I think having skills that can cut/destroy/affect space-time, or some shit like having sword skills that can cut fate and concept like in Nasuverse should qualify, since they are literally skills that can affect reality
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
The only way I see "Supergenius" level combat intelligence working is a character basically a character having precognition/cosmic awareness that works on seeing an infinite number of alternate timelines which they use to dictate out of the infinite possible strategies that they are able to look at in such a short amount of time (Or long story short the god tiers of Xenoblade Chronicles). But yeah, no one in Dragon Ball qualifies that far.
Click to expand...
I mean Goku predicting hit might qualify too, some he could freely attack anywhere within a 0-0.5second range and Goku had to predict not only which moment in time before that he'd choose but which action he'd take, and there are infinite moments between 0.0.1, let alone 0.5. Just saying
 
Vietthai96 said:
I think having skills that can cut/destroy/affect space-time, or some shit like having sword skills that can cut fate and concept like in Nasuverse should qualify, since they are literally skills that can affect reality
Click to expand...
That just seems like hax
 
Jaakor48 said:
I mean Goku predicting hit might qualify too, some he could freely attack anywhere within a 0-0.5second range and Goku had to predict not only which moment in time before that he'd choose but which action he'd take, and there are infinite moments between 0.0.1, let alone 0.5. Just saying
Click to expand...
I suppose there's no point in basically talking about this level of intelligence, it's too high. But EG is a thing that can be discussed, however, it seems that most people agree with it anyway
 
Tyranno223 said:
Feel like DB intelligence needs a revisit overall since this is wrapping up. Goku is skilled for sure, but there are characters that outright surpass him that are just "gifted".
Click to expand...
Yeah the base of the thread was that to consider grandpa Gohan as the scaling metric for this characters intelligence since guys like Gohan are still listed as gifted even though they are superior to him and I presume angels would also be given eg since they are more skilled than Goku for sure
 
BitestDust said:
I suppose there's no point in basically talking about this level of intelligence, it's too high. But EG is a thing that can be discussed, however, it seems that most people agree with it anyway
Click to expand...
Well yea, that's why I crossed it over


We are simply bringing out the profiles that need to be modified right now
 
Tyranno223 said:
Feel like DB intelligence needs a revisit overall since this is wrapping up. Goku is skilled for sure, but there are characters that outright surpass him that are just "gifted".
Click to expand...
Its funny scale Goku from Hit's ability when Hit is «Gifted» xD
Hope it will changed in future
 
Killerdrone123 said:
Yeah the base of the thread was that to consider grandpa Gohan as the scaling metric for this characters intelligence since guys like Gohan are still listed as gifted even though they are superior to him and I presume angels would also be given eg since they are more skilled than Goku for sure
Click to expand...
wouldn't go that far, they mastered Ultra Instict, just use that as the juatification

Btw does anyone other than Vegeta scales.to Goku in inteligence? Guess not even him since Vegeta didn't got Ultra Instict and such
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
The only way I see "Supergenius" level combat intelligence working is a character basically a character having precognition/cosmic awareness that works on seeing an infinite number of alternate timelines which they use to dictate out of the infinite possible strategies that they are able to look at in such a short amount of time (Or long story short the god tiers of Xenoblade Chronicles). But yeah, no one in Dragon Ball qualifies that far.
Click to expand...
I think that there is a Dungeons and Dragons character, an undead pharaoh of some sort, that was granted Supergenius combat intelligence, and that may be the only character in our wiki with that rating, but I am not certain that it was a wise decision. 🙏
 
Have only seen the OP and first page of this thread, but I agree with the proposals.

The EG rating, when it comes to combat, is way more lax than normal intelligence. Just do skill stuff that is clearly far above what humans can do (Superhuman range), and I'm pretty sure Goku fits that bill pretty well, with him predicting Hit's attacks that is so far above anything a human can do it's not even funny. Not sure about UI thing, but I'm sure all of the showing of skills in DB, DBZ, and DBS (Him fighting with Beerus and shockwaves) would easily put Goku in EG combat.
 
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Tyranno223 said:
Better than Goku Black who has no rating somehow.
Click to expand...
His profile says he's equal to Zamasu, but considering he has Goku's muscle memory and the ability to fight Goku 1v1 at his peak, that shit should be changed.

Also Zamasu has arguments to put him above Gifted.
 
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