Dragon Ball - Fusion/SSG/SSB Multiplier Upgrade

[XXBenShapiroXx]

Also y the fck is fusion zamasu accepted as only ten times stronger than his fusees?

 

[Golden_Void]

Zamasu could fight SSJ2 Goku pretty evenly, and could also take hits from an enraged SSB Goku after they trolled him about future Chi-Chi. This means that Zamasu was durable enough to survive hits from someone with well over a 1 million x multiplier. Mind you, Black going SSR the first time completely obliterated SSB Goku and Vegeta.

Goku managed to overpower Fused Zamasu's Holy Wrath by using a full-power kamehameha which broke his arms. Which means Goku managed to pull out an additional 5000x multiplier from going all-out. When he was grabbed by Zamasu after the fact (who was completely fine, btw), he had to use kaioken for a counterattack, which only doubled his strength.

Black also fused while SSR, so I wouldn't even know how that works. Fusion multiplier times SSB over base multiplier?

I fear we are too far gone

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

Zamasu could fight SSJ2 Goku pretty evenly, and could also take hits from an enraged SSB Goku after they trolled him about future Chi-Chi. This means that Zamasu was durable enough to survive hits from someone with well over a 1 million x multiplier. Mind you, Black going SSR the first time completely obliterated SSB Goku and Vegeta.

Goku managed to overpower Fused Zamasu's Holy Wrath by using a full-power kamehameha which broke his arms. Which means Goku managed to pull out an additional 5000x multiplier from going all-out. When he was grabbed by Zamasu after the fact (who was completely fine, btw), he had to use kaioken for a counterattack, which only doubled his strength.

Black also fused while SSR, so I wouldn't even know how that works. Fusion multiplier times SSB over base multiplier?

I fear we are too far gone

I mean for Super era fusions? Yeah. Base Gogeta is accepted to be >= SSB Goku or Vegeta. It's a SSB × SSB multiplier.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

It's not comparable. We have no reason to assume a potara fusion between goku and Gohan would only be like 10x stronger.

The whole Zamasu thing was just an example about how uneven fusions don't empower the stronger components as much as an equal one, if you want another example we can also just use Gokule (Hypothetical fusion of Hercule and Goku) and how it would only increase Goku's power from a 1000 to a 1001.

Like, for Goku, who's more than x4000 weaker than Gohan even in SSJ3, Gokhan would be an insane jump, faaar more than the powerup Goten and Trunks get from fusing, but like, why would that also be the case for Gohan? He's fusing with someone who's not even close to a 1% of his power, why would the fusion amp him to a similar degree to as if he fused with an equal? That's the gist of it.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Hey, why is base Pre-RoSaT Gotenks accepted as more powerful than Majin Vegeta? Krillin thinks "…maybe he'll actually pull it off…", but Piccolo—the more knowledge of the two—is adamant that Truten is "scarcely [powerful] enough to defeat [Majin Buu]" and is most likely to get himself killed.

Also y the fck is fusion zamasu accepted as only ten times stronger than his fusees?

Because, in the manga, Completed Blue Goku and Fused Zamasu are equals, and a powered-up Black was comparable to Blue Vegeta.
The anime is irrelevant here, considering the Super anime is currently accepted as connected to Kai.

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

The whole Zamasu thing was just an example about how uneven fusions don't empower the stronger components as much as an equal one, if you want another one we can also just use the Gokule (Hypothetical fusion of Hercule and Goku) would only increase Goku's power from a 1000 to 1001.

Like, for Goku, who's more than x4000 weaker than Gohan even in SSJ3, Gokhan would be an insane jump, faaar more than the powerup Goten and Trunks get from fusing, but like, why would that also be the case for Gohan? He's fusing with someone who's not even close to 1% of his power, why would the fusion amp him to a similar degree to as if he fused with an equal? That's gist of it.

That doesn't matter. What matters is that Vegito > Gohkan. The rival boost made a fusion made of two much weaker fighters stronger than the fusion between the stronger of the weaker fighters and another fighter stronger than the both of them put together.

Fusion adds then significantly multiples.

That's why Goku thought fusing with fcking Hercule would give him a better chance then using the 400x multiplier he has in his back pocket.

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

Hey, why is base Pre-RoSaT Gotenks accepted as more powerful than Majin Vegeta? Krillin thinks "…maybe he'll actually pull it off…", but Piccolo—the more knowledge of the two—is adamant that Truten is "scarcely [powerful] enough to defeat [Majin Buu]" and is most likely to get himself killed.

Because, in the manga, Completed Blue Goku and Fused Zamasu are equals, and a powered-up Black was comparable to Blue Vegeta.
The anime is irrelevant here, considering the Super anime is currently accepted as connected to Kai.

I didn't bring up the anime lol

 

[Damage3245]

Hey, why is base Pre-RoSaT Gotenks accepted as more powerful than Majin Vegeta? Krillin thinks "…maybe he'll actually pull it off…", but Piccolo—the more knowledge of the two—is adamant that Truten is "scarcely [powerful] enough to defeat [Majin Buu]" and is most likely to get himself killed.

I've always thought that it shouldn't be accepted. 90% sure there was a thread for it last year.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

That's why Goku thought fusing with fcking Hercule would give him a better chance then using the 400x multiplier he has in his back pocket.

No? He literally thought that he might get weaker.

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

I have to go snoozemax so other supporters come do your jobs lol

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

No? He literally thought that he might get weaker.

He 'might' get weaker. If he truly thought that he wouldn't have attempted to give it to Hercule. That's mostly a gag, which the Buu arc is filled with.

Goku wouldn't try to throw the ring to Hercule if he knew for sure he'd get weaker. Taking it at face value, there is a chance, but whatever chance there is Goku still found it better than SSJ3.

 

[Golden_Void]

I mean for Super era fusions? Yeah. Base Gogeta is accepted to be >= SSB Goku or Vegeta. It's a SSB × SSB multiplier.

SSB x SSB = (50 * SSG)2 = 2500x.

With the fusion amp that's almost 13 million times SSG.

That means Goku and Vegeta survived Broly being 625 million times stronger than them as a SSJ, 6.25 billion with the Great Ape stack, and even more with a rage boost.

 

[ArcaneAbyss]

Zamasu could fight SSJ2 Goku pretty evenly, and could also take hits from an enraged SSB Goku after they trolled him about future Chi-Chi. This means that Zamasu was durable enough to survive hits from someone with well over a 1 million x multiplier.

Ah yes he could survive SSB level hits, almost as if his body was made immortal by a god tier dragon?

 

[Damage3245]

He 'might' get weaker. If he truly thought that he wouldn't have attempted to give it to Hercule. That's mostly a gag, which the Buu arc is filled with.

Goku wouldn't try to throw the ring to Hercule if he knew for sure he'd get weaker. Taking it at face value, there is a chance, but whatever chance there is Goku still found it better than SSJ3.

That doesn't mean he thought it would be a better result than his SSJ3.

It means he thought the base form of his fusion might be better than his current base form. He could then amp the base form of the new fusion with his transformations.

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

SSB x SSB = (50 * SSG)2 = 2500x.

With the fusion amp that's almost 13 million times SSG.

That means Goku and Vegeta survived Broly being 625 million times stronger than them as a SSJ, 6.25 billion with the Great Ape stack, and even more with a rage boost.

SSB is 8 mil x. SSB Gogeta is 25.6 billion

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

That doesn't mean he thought it would be a better result than his SSJ3.

It means he thought the base form of his fusion might be better than his current base form. He could then amp the base form of the new fusion with his transformations.

Point still stands lol.

Fusion is addition then multiplication. Unless we want to take A x B seriously.

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

Ednaxel get your ass back here i ain't gonna waste my time in the trenches for you I got to go to bed

 

[Golden_Void]

SSB is 8 mil x. SSB Gogeta is 25.6 billion

That's still impossibly insane either way.

But going by OP's numbers,

SS2 Goku & Vegeta (100x Base) < Pre-RoSaT Base Gotenks < Pre-RoSaT SSJ Gotenks (50x Base) < Post-RoSaT Base Gotenks

Wouldn't the number be 5000 x 50 = >250,000, if previous SSJ is incomparable to the new base? Then x400 for SSJ3 Gotenks, then SSJ3 Gotenks < Ultimate Gohan < Vegito? Or is that a specific case because he was training?

 

[RedReaper616]

No? He literally thought that he might get weaker.

This is a mistranslation. The proper statement was “it’d be like going from 1000 to 1001.” The raw is right here.

That said, it is definitely true that the jump you get is relative to the fusees. Hercule would’ve only given Goku a jump of “1” in a power level sense. So you can be skeptical of how much of a jump would occur with Gokhan.

 

[Ednaxel2]

That's still impossibly insane either way.

But going by OP's numbers,


Wouldn't the number be 5000 x 50 = >250,000, if previous SSJ is incomparable to the new base? Then x400 for SSJ3 Gotenks, then SSJ3 Gotenks < Ultimate Gohan < Vegito? Or is that a specific case because he was training?

Base Gotenks gapping his previous SSJ self is already taken. But actually if we treat it like Base Goku & Vegeta < SS2 Majin Vegeta (100x) ~ Gotenks < SSJ Gotenks (50x) < Post-RoSaT Gotenks < SS3 Gotenks (400x) < Base Vegito, then we get a multiplier of 2,000,000

 

[Ednaxel2]

That said, it is definitely true that the jump you get is relative to the fusees. Hercule would’ve only given Goku a jump of “1” in a power level sense. So you can be skeptical of how much of a jump would occur with Gokhan.

Hercule is a weird case because even though he's fusing with Goku he himself is dramatically far lower than all of Z

 

[Ednaxel2]

Bump

 

[Omegabronic]

SSB x SSB = (50 * SSG)2 = 2500x.

With the fusion amp that's almost 13 million times SSG.

That means Goku and Vegeta survived Broly being 625 million times stronger than them as a SSJ, 6.25 billion with the Great Ape stack, and even more with a rage boost.

ok, this legitemely makes NO SENSE whatsoever, i feel like the multipliers were taken too far a little lol

This is a mistranslation. The proper statement was “it’d be like going from 1000 to 1001.” The raw is right here.

That said, it is definitely true that the jump you get is relative to the fusees. Hercule would’ve only given Goku a jump of “1” in a power level sense. So you can be skeptical of how much of a jump would occur with Gokhan.

ok so this comfirms that the level a fusion is superior to the fusion components is factually not aways the same and can vary dramatically depending on the ones being fused

considering how, as said above, Goku is not even 1% of Gohan's power... i now feel skeptical about this point

 

[Padaruyos]

While I'm a bit skeptical because the power difference between Buu Saga Goku and Ultimate Gohan is ENORMOUS, I do think that fusions in general should have a bare minimum multiplier higher than that of Super Saiyan 3, considering Goku thought fusing with Mr. Satan and Dende would give him a better fighting chance than just turning Super Saiyan 3 LMAO. The power difference between Buu Saga Goku and Mr. Satan is way larger than Buu Saga Goku and U. Gohan, so I think its valid.

 

[Damage3245]

While I'm a bit skeptical because the power difference between Buu Saga Goku and Ultimate Gohan is ENORMOUS, I do think that fusions in general should have a bare minimum multiplier higher than that of Super Saiyan 3, considering Goku thought fusing with Mr. Satan and Dende would give him a better fighting chance than just turning Super Saiyan 3 LMAO. The power difference between Buu Saga Goku and Mr. Satan is way larger than Buu Saga Goku and U. Gohan, so I think its valid.

I don't think that holds up; it doesn't mean that Goku becoming a fusion with Mr. Satan would provide him a bigger boost than turning SSJ3. It just means that turning into a fusion would make him more powerful than just being himself.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Nothing stops him from going SSJ3 after fusing with Mr. Satan, and a minimum multiplier for fusions is contradicted by the whole "going from 1000 to 1001" thing.

 

[Padaruyos]

Nothing stops him from going SSJ3 after fusing with Mr. Satan, and a minimum multiplier for fusions is contradicted by the whole "going from 1000 to 1001" thing.

Tbh I was thinking that the fusion wouldn't be able to turn SSJ, but maybe he can, so idk.

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

I'm neutral about the 4A rating so that is mostly irrelevant, but on paper a fusion between Goku and Gohan should be > than a Goku and Vegeta fusion, but we have a statement that the rival boost makes their fusion stronger.

That can definitely be used to buff Vegito, and in turn the god forms.

 

[Golden_Void]

ok, this legitemely makes NO SENSE whatsoever, i feel like the multipliers were taken too far a little lol

Keep in mind, Goku using Kaioken x10 which is a ten times multiplier was so significant that Goku was effectively invisible from Hit's vision and capable of doing some damage before it became irrelevant again.

One million??????????????????????? Gone, reduced to atoms.

 

[RedReaper616]

Keep in mind, Goku using Kaioken x10 which is a ten times multiplier was so significant that Goku was effectively invisible from Hit's vision and capable of doing some damage before it became irrelevant again.

One million??????????????????????? Gone, reduced to atoms.

Recall that before this, Goku was able to move across the arena with BASIC Kaioken and blitz Hit so badly he was looking around for a whole minute despite the fact Goku immediately returned to where he began.

THEN Goku went times ten, just to utterly overcome Hit and essentially flex on him when you consider what just Basic, 2x Kaioken could do.

 

[Ednaxel2]

SSB x SSB = (50 * SSG)2 = 2500x.

With the fusion amp that's almost 13 million times SSG.

That means Goku and Vegeta survived Broly being 625 million times stronger than them as a SSJ, 6.25 billion with the Great Ape stack, and even more with a rage boost.

That's if you think Broly was not getting stronger as he fights, which evidently is not true whatsoever. Broly only scales to Blue Gogeta as a Full power Super Saiyan anyways, initially Base Gogeta was able to handle SSJ Broly before he got stronger

Keep in mind, Goku using Kaioken x10 which is a ten times multiplier was so significant that Goku was effectively invisible from Hit's vision and capable of doing some damage before it became irrelevant again.

One million??????????????????????? Gone, reduced to atoms.

Small multiplier/power jumps have always led to insane differences in strength it doesn't really contradict SSB's multiplier

 

[Omegabronic]

Small multiplier/power jumps have always led to insane differences in strength it doesn't really contradict SSB's multiplier

Kind of does when Goku in base form can keep up with Hit no problem to block his attacks and attack him... yet in SSB he doesn't blitz him at all and hit can still keep up with him, yet the 2x boost that is supposedly 4 million times higher can suddently blitz Hit so badly that he can't see Goku at all? Something's up

 

[Damage3245]

Kind of does when Goku in base form can keep up with Hit no problem to block his attacks and attack him... yet in SSB he doesn't blitz him at all and hit can still keep up with him, yet the 2x boost that is supposedly 4 million times higher can suddently blitz Hit so badly that he can't see Goku at all? Something's up

This is a fair point to bring up.

Our own Multipliers standards page says this: "Lastly, multipliers will obviously only be used if they are not contradicted. A typical case of that would be if a character gets 10 times stronger, but fighters that were previously equal to it can still somehow keep up."

 

[Golden_Void]

That's if you think Broly was not getting stronger as he fights, which evidently is not true whatsoever. Broly only scales to Blue Gogeta as a Full power Super Saiyan anyways, initially Base Gogeta was able to handle SSJ Broly before he got stronger

Small multiplier/power jumps have always led to insane differences in strength it doesn't really contradict SSB's multiplier

I mean, that's partially true, but Gogeta still felt the need to go SSJ before Broly went Full Power, and Gogeta responded with SSB.

But that's not my main point. My main point is that SSJ Broly would be no less than nine orders of magnitude stronger than SSB Goku and SSB Vegeta individually, based on the numbers. Exponentially smaller numbers in the show (<100) became significant plot points.

 

[Ednaxel2]

Kind of does when Goku in base form can keep up with Hit no problem to block his attacks and attack him... yet in SSB he doesn't blitz him at all and hit can still keep up with him, yet the 2x boost that is supposedly 4 million times higher can suddently blitz Hit so badly that he can't see Goku at all? Something's up

Hit wasn’t fighting seriously when he was up against base Goku, only after Goku learned his technique did he start taking it seriously with Goku responding by transforming into Blue. Also what do you mean by a "2x boost that is supposedly 4 million times higher"?

I mean, that's partially true, but Gogeta still felt the need to go SSJ before Broly went Full Power, and Gogeta responded with SSB.

Broly still grows rapidly during fights, he was getting thrashed by base Vegeta yet started overpowering SSJ Vegeta in a very short time, with his rage only becoming greater as he goes Super Saiyan

 

[Omegabronic]

Hit wasn’t fighting seriously when he was up against base Goku, only after Goku learned his technique did he start taking it seriously with Goku responding by transforming into Blue.

Good to note, thank you

still... isn't it really a strecth to say he lowered himself by literally Millions of times just... because? He wanted to beat Goku, if he was that much stronger and faster, enough to blitz him complletely millions of times over, why didn't he just... knocked him out with 1 attack as we are shown numerous times in the series that it is possible to do?

It still makes no narrative sense, Hit wanted to win, and he didn't got the respect he had for Goku till later

Also what do you mean by a "2x boost that is supposedly 4 million times higher"?

Mistyped, i meant "yet the boost that is supposedly 4 Million times higher"

Broly still grows rapidly during fights, he was getting thrashed by base Vegeta yet started overpowering SSJ Vegeta in a very short time, with his rage only becoming greater as he goes Super Saiyan

Yeah... and then when Vegeta goes Super Saiyan God, trashing Broly effortlessly, Broly is able to become completely impervious to his attacks simply by going into Ikari/"using the power of the Oozaru", which is a comfirmed 10x Multiplier only... while the difference between SSJ1 and SSJG is supposedly in the thousands

 

[Golden_Void]

Broly still grows rapidly during fights, he was getting thrashed by base Vegeta yet started overpowering SSJ Vegeta in a very short time, with his rage only becoming greater as he goes Super Saiyan

If we accept Ikari Broly as using the Oozaru multiplier (which, we do because every Saiyan Saga profile has it), then that means from the time he got off of Frieza's ship until the moment before Paragus was murdered, he only got ten times stronger. This is in line with Goku overwhelming Hit with a 10x boost.

Again, my point is that Goku and Vegeta are surviving attacks from someone at least 100 MILLION to one BILLION times stronger than them. Keep in mind that Beerus casually one-shot Z Goku by touching him, and the difference between them is likely far larger than the distance between Goku/Vegeta and Broly in the movie.

 

[Ednaxel2]

Good to note, thank you

still... isn't it really a strecth to say he lowered himself by literally Millions of times just... because?

What difference does it make if he was 3 times stronger or 2, again small increases in strength also turn fights into complete stomps so this wouldn't fix anything. This is just incredulity

I'm not further entertaining this because this is going way off topic, SSB has always been treated as an increase far greater than that of the regular Super Saiyan transformations on this site by multiplier standards. So the concerns being addressed here are not one of the new Vegito multiplier or anything but rather just SSB and other multipliers being extremely massive in general, so arguing against it in this thread won't really fix anything.

 

[Apex_Predator_GX]

OP looks fine to me.

 

[AwkguyDB]

I'm not further entertaining this because this is going way off topic, SSB has always been treated as an increase far greater than that of the regular Super Saiyan transformations on this site by multiplier standards. So the concerns being addressed here are not one of the new Vegito multiplier or anything but rather just SSB and other multipliers being extremely massive in general, so arguing against it in this thread won't really fix anything.

I agree with this and agree with the OP no more derailing