Dragon Ball - Fusion/SSG/SSB Multiplier Upgrade

[XXBenShapiroXx]

I love how the opps started arguing over stats OP didn't bring up and aren't even accepted. Mfers so desperate to downplay they derail the thread.

 

[Omegabronic]

i don't see how talking directly about the multiplier itself being proposed in the OP is derailing in any way also, again with the dowplay card buzzword? really?

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

i don't see how talking directly about the multiplier itself being proposed in the OP is derailing in any way also, again with the dowplay card buzzword? really?

'Aren't accepted'

Blud doesnt wanna read. Those stats aren't accepted. No one has argued for those stats to exist. Despite the fact fusion multiplier is already accepted as strongest form of a plus strongest form of b times 20 based off vados statement, base Gogeta only has accepted scaling to or slightly above SSB Goku.

So uh, yeah, you are going after stats that aren't currently accepted or even argued in its own CRT yet with not great arguements.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Ultimate Gohan pretty much stomped Super Buu with no dificulty whatsoever

Goku is utterly scared to even fight Super Buu at all and implied he only easily kill him even with Vegeta's help

This is why Dragon Ball here is doomed.

Still seeing this argument is just sad.

 

[Golden_Void]

'Aren't accepted'

Blud doesnt wanna read. Those stats aren't accepted. No one has argued for those stats to exist. Despite the fact fusion multiplier is already accepted as strongest form of a plus strongest form of b times 20 based off vados statement, base Gogeta only has accepted scaling to or slightly above SSB Goku.

So uh, yeah, you are going after stats that aren't currently accepted or even argued in its own CRT yet with not great arguements.

You can't ignore the natural conclusion of a line of logic and say, "Nobody is talking about that." it's literally going to be a reality.

Also, Goku single-handedly beating fused Zamasu in a beam clash without Kaioken draws skepticism.

 

[Omegabronic]

'Aren't accepted'

Blud doesnt wanna read. Those stats aren't accepted. No one has argued for those stats to exist.

... the OP is LITERALLY arguing for the multiplier in question dude... i did read, hence why i said what i said

SSG/B Upgrade (Anime)​

Due to Vegito's multiplier being upgraded, this should also by extension upgrade SSG as it is an amp far greater than a hypothetical beginning of Super SS3 Vegito, and that multiplier would be over 2,000,000x (400 [SS3] x 5000 [fusion amp]). Blue is accepted as being 50x SSG as it is the Super Saiyan version of that as stated several times, which should make it a >100,000,000x amp on base.

I am talking about the multiplier in question brought up in the OP, not any stats, did you read what i was even arguing?

Despite the fact fusion multiplier is already accepted as strongest form of a plus strongest form of b times 20 based off vados statement, base Gogeta only has accepted scaling to or slightly above SSB Goku.

Threads are for changing things, a new multiplier is being proposed, i am giving my two cents about it, and so are others, being accepted previously doesn't mean one can't question it at all if said multiplier is literally part of the OP's proposals

So uh, yeah, you are going after stats that aren't currently accepted or even argued in its own CRT yet with not great arguements.

I literally never mentioned the stats themselves here at all dude, i am not "targetting" anything not accepted, i am literally debating the OP itself, plus... you just contradicted yourself, you said the Multiplier IS accepted... then says it isn't?

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

You can't ignore the natural conclusion of a line of logic and say, "Nobody is talking about that." it's literally going to be a reality.

Its kind of hard to take that seriously when the arguement against said line of logic is 'Broly only got 10x stronger from Ikari until he turned SSJ'.

This same movie had base Goku clash fists with Ikari Broly who just no sold a SSG Vegeta punch and not instantly die.

 

[Omegabronic]

Its kind of hard to take that seriously when the arguement against said line of logic is 'Broly only got 10x stronger from Ikari until he turned SSJ'.

This same movie had base Goku clash fists with Ikari Broly who just no sold a SSG Vegeta punch and not instantly die.

Which in his profile is said to be due to skill and not power growth, thus it is irrelevant

 

[ElajRuengies]

.​

How did you link to the subheaders?

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

... the OP is LITERALLY arguing for the multiplier in question dude... i did read, hence why i said what i said


I am talking about the multiplier in question brought up in the OP, not any stats, did you read what i was even arguing?


Threads are for changing things, a new multiplier is being proposed, i am giving my two cents about it, and so are others, being accepted previously doesn't mean one can't question it at all if said multiplier is literally part of the OP's proposals


I literally never mentioned the stats themselves here at all dude, i am not "targetting" anything not accepted, i am literally debating the OP itself, plus... you just contradicted yourself, you said the Multiplier IS accepted... then says it isn't?

I was more arguing against what Void and Damage were saying, you sorta inserted yourself and acted like I was only talking about you.

I didn't contradict myself. I said a fusion multiplier was already accepted. Those stats being presented weren't. Not a contradiction. You can't do your usual 'erm you didn't listen to what I say' and then respond to me like you didn't read my post.

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

Which in his profile is said to be due to skill and not power growth, thus it is irrelevant

Broly grew from sub base Vegeta to forcing him to go SSG through skill? Thats already a genuinely nonsensical thing to say, but how tf fck does that make it 'Irrelevant'?

That's why it's hard to take the arguements brought up against those stats seriously when they are this incoherent

 

[Omegabronic]

I was more arguing against what Void and Damage were saying, you sorta inserted yourself and acted like I was only talking about you.

When did they talked about stats? weren't they talking about the multipliers as well? at least from what i read so far

also... dude, you said that while answering me, of course i will act as if you are talking to me

I didn't contradict myself. I said a fusion multiplier was already accepted. Those stats being presented weren't.

What stats? No one talked anything but the multipliers here so far

Not a contradiction. You can't do your usual 'erm you didn't listen to what I say' and then respond to me like you didn't read my post.

What are you even talking about? You legit sounded like you didn't read my post as you kept talking about me arguing for... non accepted stats? When i am LITERALLY only talking about the multiplier being proposed and nothing more, i responded like i read your post... cuz i did

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

When did they talked about stats? weren't they talking about the multipliers as well? at least from what i read so far

also... dude, you said that while answering me, of course i will act as if you are talking to me


What stats? No one talked anything but the multipliers here so far


What are you even talking about? You legit sounded like you didn't read my post as you kept talking about me arguing for... non accepted stats? When i am LITERALLY only talking about the multiplier being proposed and nothing more, i responded like i read your post... cuz i did

'What stats?'

Dude what? So first you defend talking about them and now they suddenly don't exist?

You were the one to respond to me first, then I responded back, you don't get to pearl clutch lol you started the interaction.

I said 'opps were arguing against stats' not 'omega specifically was arguing against stats'.

Genuinely stop projecting the 'erm you didnt read my post'

 

[Omegabronic]

Broly grew from sub base Vegeta to forcing him to go SSG through skill? Thats already a genuinely nonsensical thing to say, but how tf fck does that make it 'Irrelevant'?

That's why it's hard to take the arguements brought up against those stats seriously when they are this incoherent

Goku, not broly, you were talking about Goku keeping up with Broly, not Broly growing to Vegeta's level

Its kind of hard to take that seriously when the arguement against said line of logic is 'Broly only got 10x stronger from Ikari until he turned SSJ'.

This same movie had base Goku clash fists with Ikari Broly who just no sold a SSG Vegeta punch and not instantly die.

I sincerely don't know how you missed to entire context of the response... when it was something you wrote yourself

Also, yeah, Broly somehow not killing Goku is a good point against the multiplier being that high as well, as contrary to Broly, Goku can't grow that fast, specially when he is still comparable to Vegeta later on

 

[Omegabronic]

'What stats?'

Dude what? So first you defend talking about them and now they suddenly don't exist?

... what are you talking about? I only argued about the multipliers here

You were the one to respond to me first, then I responded back, you don't get to pearl clutch lol you started the interaction.

I dunno what "peal clutch" means, besides that... yeah? we are arguing, of course i will answer your points? I don't see your point now

I said 'opps were arguing against stats' not 'omega specifically was arguing against stats'.

I am part of said "opps", so like... you are still talking about me?

besides... again, as far as i can see, no one here argued about anything but the multipliers...

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

Goku, not broly, you were talking about Goku keeping up with Broly, not Broly growing to Vegeta's level


I sincerely don't know how you missed to entire context of the response... when it was something you wrote yourself

Also, yeah, Broly somehow not killing Goku is a good point against the multiplier being that high as well, as contrary to Broly, Goku can't grow that fast, specially when he is still comparable to Vegeta later on

Lmao that either means Broly was holding back, which can be used to explain a shit ton of characters surviving hits against people way stronger than them, or he wasn't and characters can survive hits way sttonger than them

Also this was a weird way of weaseling out of the reality that Broly went from sub base Vegeta to forcing him to SSG.

So that's not a note against the multiplier being that high lol. At worst it's just inconsistent portrayal, which is shitty grounds to downplay a multiplier.

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

... what are you talking about? I only argued about the multipliers here


I dunno what "peal clutch" means, besides that... yeah? we are arguing, of course i will answer your points? I don't see your point now


I am part of said "opps", so like... you are still talking about me?

besides... again, as far as i can see, no one here argued about anything but the multipliers...

I've reread this three times and youve said nothing of actual substance here, it's the usual semantics of 'nuh uh I didn't say that thing I just said' and general purposeful obtuseness, so I won't dignify it with an actual reply.

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

Just got a dm from a supporter to let them handle this so I'll bow out.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

What's there left to discuss? We know the fusion amp is relative to the fusees' power difference (Fusion Zamasu and the whole "going from 1000 to 1001” for Gokule), and until someone makes SSJ3 Goku on par with Ultimate Gohan, we can't put the hypothetical Gokhan multiplier (When it comes to Gohan) on the same level as the Gotenks one.

 

[Omegabronic]

Lmao that either means Broly was holding back, which can be used to explain a shit ton of characters surviving hits against people way stronger than them

... he quite literally is said to have lost all capability of reasoning or rationality. He is LITERALLY a wild animal, like an Oozaru... that's the whole point of the form

, or he wasn't and characters can survive hits way sttonger than them

An attack literally millions of times above you would destroy your body, you can't survive something millions of times above your own durability... this makes no sense

Also this was a weird way of weaseling out of the reality that Broly went from sub base Vegeta to forcing him to SSG.

... no one ever denied that tho?

So that's not a note against the multiplier being that high lol.

... Non Sequitur, nothing that you said had any connections to reach this conclusion, specially when you didn't even engaged the argument at hand?

How is the fact that Broly is supposedly millions of times stronger than Base Goku... a proof that Goku scale to Broly when Broly being above Goku is the whole point?

At worst it's just inconsistent portrayal, which is shitty grounds to downplay a multiplier.

No, it is a clear contradiction to the supposed multiplier being proposed

I've reread this three times and youve said nothing of actual substance here, it's the usual semantics of 'nuh uh I didn't say that thing I just said' and general purposeful obtuseness, so I won't dignify it with an actual reply.

if you don't want to give counterpoints to the things i point out... then please simply not answer, it cloggs the thread

 

[Banjo77]

Piccolo shouldn't be on top shin considering he treated degesu like a child in daima

 

[Ednaxel2]

What's there left to discuss? We know the fusion amp is relative to the fusees' power difference (Fusion Zamasu and the whole "going from 1000 to 1001” for Gokule), and until someone makes SSJ3 Goku on par with Ultimate Gohan, we can't put the hypothetical Gokhan multiplier (When it comes to Gohan) on the same level as the Gotenks one.

Again how does Gokule support that notion that the two power levels need to be relative to be significant, Hercule is far below any character in Z he isn't relative at all let alone is above base Goten and Trunks

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

... he quite literally is said to have lost all capability of reasoning or rationality. He is LITERALLY a wild animal, like an Oozaru... that's the whole point of the form


An attack literally millions of times above you would destroy your body, you can't survive something millions of times above your own durability... this makes no sense


... no one ever denied that tho?


... Non Sequitur, nothing that you said had any connections to reach this conclusion, specially when you didn't even engaged the argument at hand?

How is the fact that Broly is supposedly millions of times stronger than Base Goku... a proof that Goku scale to Broly when Broly being above Goku is the whole point?


No, it is a clear contradiction to the supposed multiplier being proposed


if you don't want to give counterpoints to the things i point out... then please simply not answer, it cloggs the thread

I gave multiple counter points. You just saying 'that's makes no sense' isnt a proper rebuttal to said arguements.

Someone said Broly only got 10x stronger, I pointed out how that's blatantly untrue and ignoring Broly having insane AD independent of his Super Saiyan and Ikari forms.

This 'it doesn't make sense' is literally just putting your head in the ground and ignoring pretty plausible explanations.

Ikari Broly no sold a SSG Vegeta punch. Base Goku fist clashed with Ikari Broly and didn't immediately ******* die. That objectively happened.

So either Broly is holding back, or Goku has the skill to keep up with that gap somewhat, (something you specifically said). Why would ability not apply to SSB Goku and Vegeta working together?

Going 'erm it doesn't make sense therefore we uproot accepted multipliers based off direct info from the series' isnt a proper arguement. I pointed that out.

The series isn't written by people who know the exact numbers like we do. That isn't grounds to change shit on a whim any time something is slightly inconsistent. That's impractical and nonsensical.

So we could either adjust multipliers every time the series doesn't 100% accurately portray them due to plot, or we can just accept that things will be sometimes inconsistent like we do for every single other piece fiction on this site.

So I have absolutely provided counter points and given reasonable explanations. You've just ignored them or waved them away with semantics.

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

Statements/feats > logic. It doesnt make sense for Krillin to be able to scale to Base Super Goku, but he does. We don't ignore that because it doesn't make sense.

Hell, right now base Gogeta is accepted as like 40x SSB Goku, that'd make SSJ Broly like 1000x stronger than SSB Goku. Goku not getting one tapped doesn't make sense, but it happened. So this 'it doesn't make sense' shit is performative af because what is the threshold for it to make sense and be acceptable when what's accepted already doesn't make perfect sense?

 

[Omegabronic]

Again how does Gokule support that notion that the two power levels need to be relative to be significant, Hercule is far below any character in Z he isn't relative at all let alone is above base Goten and Trunks

If a far lower powerlevel makes the boost weaker, then Gohan, who is quite literally thousands of times stronger than Goku would have a far weaker boost as well, again, Goku's not even 1 percent of Gohan's power, why would we assume the boost is just as big?

 

[Omegabronic]

Statements/feats > logic

by statements the potara only combine the power of the users and then multiply by dozens, aka, far lower than the proposed boost here, you are the one using "logic" and not statements here

. It doesnt make sense for Krillin to be able to scale to Base Super Goku, but he does. We don't ignore that because it doesn't make sense.

it does make sense for him to scale cuz he has feats for it, what are you talking about?

Hell, right now base Gogeta is accepted as like 40x SSB Goku, that'd make SSJ Broly like 1000x stronger than SSB Goku. Goku not getting one tapped doesn't make sense, but it happened.

hence the point of contential in the thread, the value would be even higher, which makes no sense as you described yourself

So this 'it doesn't make sense' shit is performative af because what is the threshold for it to make sense and be acceptable when what's accepted already doesn't make perfect sense?

If what is accepted doesn't make sense, then we change it, simple enough

You acting as if a treshold shouldn't exist is not a solution nor does it answer the arguments presented so far

I gave multiple counter points. You just saying 'that's makes no sense' isnt a proper rebuttal to said arguements.

Good thing that wasn't all i did, besides... you didn't gave any counter points to it not making sense, all you said can boil down to "it doesn't make sense, let's roll with it" which... isn't an answer

Someone said Broly only got 10x stronger, I pointed out how that's blatantly untrue and ignoring Broly having insane AD independent of his Super Saiyan and Ikari forms.

he matched SSJG Veget by going Ikari, a 10x boost, yes, and then got stronger, then Base Goku survived and tanked attacks from this Broly

Hence the point of contention

This 'it doesn't make sense' is literally just putting your head in the ground and ignoring pretty plausible explanations.

You didn't offered any "plausable" ones, saying "they can tank attacks Millions of times above themselves" is not "plausable"

Goku with a simple 2x Kaioken overpowering briefly someone also supposedly Millions of times stronger also doesn't make sense, you didn't offered an answer to that

Ikari Broly no sold a SSG Vegeta punch. Base Goku fist clashed with Ikari Broly and didn't immediately ******* die. That objectively happened.

yeah, hence the point of contention

So either Broly is holding back

you ignoring my point of how he couldn't will not make it go away you know

he lost all rationale, he quite literally can't

, or Goku has the skill to keep up with that gap somewhat, (something you specifically said).

"skill" doesn't raise your speed or durability by the literal millions, this is not an answer, how does "skill" solve the contradiction?

Why would ability not apply to SSB Goku and Vegeta working together?

What ability? Them working together has what to do with anything? Which point are you answering?

Going 'erm it doesn't make sense therefore we uproot accepted multipliers based off direct info from the series' isnt a proper arguement. I pointed that out.

it is a proper argument to point out contradictions when our multiplier page quite literally says that we only use multipliers when there isn't contradictions

The series isn't written by people who know the exact numbers like we do.

... the multiplier comes from guides written by them, yes it does...

That isn't grounds to change shit on a whim any time something is slightly inconsistent. That's impractical and nonsensical.

... this doesn't cover to not lightly massive contradictions showed, you downplaying them as "slight inconsistencies" isn't going to make them suddently be that

So we could either adjust multipliers every time the series doesn't 100% accurately portray them due to plot, or we can just accept that things will be sometimes inconsistent like we do for every single other piece fiction on this site.

We don't, in fact, do this for every piece of fiction on this site

And if you have any that also have such massive contradictions for such high numbera of multipliers?, feel free to downgrade them, i will support you

So I have absolutely provided counter points and given reasonable explanations. You've just ignored them or waved them away with semantics.

Nope, you didn't, you are... uninronically the one doing this

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

by statements the potara only combine the power of the users and then multiply by dozens, aka, far lower than the proposed boost here, you are the one using "logic" and not statements here


it does make sense for him to scale cuz he has feats for it, what are you talking about?


hence the point of contential in the thread, the value would be even higher, which makes no sense as you described yourself


If what is accepted doesn't make sense, then we change it, simple enough

You acting as if a treshold shouldn't exist is not a solution nor does it answer the arguments presented so far


Good thing that wasn't all i did, besides... you didn't gave any counter points to it not making sense, all you said can boil down to "it doesn't make sense, let's roll with it" which... isn't an answer


he matched SSJG Veget by going Ikari, a 10x boost, yes, and then got stronger, then Base Goku survived and tanked attacks from this Broly

Hence the point of contention


You didn't offered any "plausable" ones, saying "they can tank attacks Millions of times above themselves" is not "plausable"

Goku with a simple 2x Kaioken overpowering briefly someone also supposedly Millions of times stronger also doesn't make sense, you didn't offered an answer to that


yeah, hence the point of contention


you ignoring my point of how he couldn't will not make it go away you know

he lost all rationale, he quite literally can't


"skill" doesn't raise your speed or durability by the literal millions, this is not an answer, how does "skill" solve the contradiction?


What ability? Them working together has what to do with anything? Which point are you answering?


it is a proper argument to point out contradictions when our multiplier page quite literally says that we only use multipliers when there isn't contradictions


... the multiplier comes from guides written by them, yes it does...


... this doesn't cover to not lightly massive contradictions showed, you downplaying them as "slight inconsistencies" isn't going to make them suddently be that


We don't, in fact, do this for every piece of fiction on this site

And if you have any that also have such massive contradictions for such high numbera of multipliers?, feel free to downgrade them, i will support you


Nope, you didn't, you are... uninronically the one doing this

Lmao you don't make any actual arguements in this, it's just more yap and semantics and 'nuh uh that's you'. Actual playground tier argumentation.

Seriously nothing in here is an actual rebutal to my point, and then you cap it off by going 'erm you are the one unironically doing this'.

Lile your first assertion is that my arguement, or this OP, is based on 'logic' and not statements and multipliers, when its literally based on statements (piccolo thinking post rosat base gotenks > pre rosat ssj gotenks) and accepted multipliers (the super saiyan multipliers) and feats (pre rosat gotenks survived a fight with Buu whereas Majin Vegeta didn't)

Your very first statement is objectively wrong, so Im not going to slave away responding to the rest of your stonewall.

It's performative argument from incredulity.

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

I know that this will never end if I keep reply and the stone walling will not stop, so I'll leave it up to the mods atp. I'm going in circles with 'nuh uh no you' arguements

 

[Ednaxel2]

If a far lower powerlevel makes the boost weaker, then Gohan, who is quite literally thousands of times stronger than Goku would have a far weaker boost as well, again, Goku's not even 1 percent of Gohan's power, why would we assume the boost is just as big?

It’s just this

100 x 50 is greater than 25 x 25 for very obvious reasons, but 100 x 2 is lower than 25 x 25 but it’s not because the difference between the numbers is greater, but rather it’s just because 2 is much lower than all of the other number

 

[Golden_Void]

Someone said Broly only got 10x stronger, I pointed out how that's blatantly untrue and ignoring Broly having insane AD independent of his Super Saiyan and Ikari forms.

Because it's the only proven minimum number, or number we can use at all. In the same way, 2 million is the multiplier for SSG, even though that multiplier wouldn't get a hypothetical SSJ3 Vegito out of 4-A, let alone into Tier 2. And we've already seen how substantial 10x boosts are, let alone thousands and millions of times.

 

[Omegabronic]

Lmao you don't make any actual arguements in this, it's just more yap and semantics and 'nuh uh that's you'. Actual playground tier argumentation.

My dude, can you take this with a minimum of seriousness? Mocking me cause you don't like my arguments doesn't make the thread progress, you mocking me for pointing out stuff won't change anything is said

Seriously nothing in here is an actual rebutal to my point

Yet you never bother to explain why, affirming things without proving them is not an argument

and then you cap it off by going 'erm you are the one unironically doing this'.

Cause you are? You keep repeating the same points, never addresses the actual argument i make, nor does you explain your point further in addression to my points, again, you mocking in a void is not an argument

Lile your first assertion is that my arguement, or this OP, is based on 'logic' and not statements and multipliers, when its literally based on statements (piccolo thinking post rosat base gotenks > pre rosat ssj gotenks) and accepted multipliers (the super saiyan multipliers) and feats (pre rosat gotenks survived a fight with Buu whereas Majin Vegeta didn't)

The God Forms multipliers come entire based on logic and not feats, that is the thing i was talking about

also, i am pretty sure there is a thread already for the Gotenks scalling

Your very first statement is objectively wrong, so Im not going to slave away responding to the rest of your stonewall.

nah, the God forms multiplier and the fusion multiplier currently used come, entirely, out of logic scalling of "Fusion >>>> Their Fuseés maximum even in base form", that is what i was talking about, as it would be clear by the context, but of course, you pursposively ignored the Potara statement that contradicts it and all other arguments... so like, dope, ignore the contradictions and statements... they are still there

It's performative argument from incredulity.

void acusations that are not proven are, again, not an argument

 

[Omegabronic]

It’s just this

100 x 50 is greater than 25 x 25 for very obvious reasons, but 100 x 2 is lower than 25 x 25 but it’s not because the difference between the numbers is greater, but rather it’s just because 2 is much lower than all of the other number

Ok, just to see if understand the logic here before answering, 100 would be Gohan, 50 would be Goku, 25 would be Goten and Trunks, and 2 would be Mr.Satan

is that correct?