Dragon Ball Cosmology Revision

[Stefano4444]

what if a universal-sized space-time continuum being contained in a larger timeline???

Smaller space-times that exist within a timeline, even if universe/infinite in size, may no longer be consider trully Low 2-C (like with do with pocket dimensions), at most they are High 3-A (destroy/affecting large portions of space-time, but not the entire space-time continuum).

But i'm not completely sure.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

can I get an example? space-time continuum is a timeline, if they are not spatio-temporally separate, destruction will be low 2-C


not anymore, we just finished this thread

well they can be fixed later

I can ask a question?

if one timeline is considered a different space-time than the other line of the present?

 

[Reiner04]

Smaller space-times that exist within a timeline, even if universe in size, may no longer be consider trully Low 2-C (like with do with pocket dimensions).

But i'm not completely sure.

That had be the case only when universes are separated by higher dimension or more to say, space between universes or universes cannot be transversed by 3D movements such as 3D flight.

If above is not the case then being inside single timeline means low 2C.

Consider my words a mark on stones.

 

[PrinceofPein]

I can ask a question?

if one timeline is considered a different space-time than the other line of the present?

I am confused by this question, if it is possible please rephrase it?
Do you mean if one timeline is considered to be of different space-time to the other timeline of the present?

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

I am confused by this question, if it is possible please rephrase it?
Do you mean if one timeline is considered to be of different space-time to the other timeline of the present?

yes

 

[Reiner04]

I am confused by this question, if it is possible please rephrase it?
Do you mean if one timeline is considered to be of different space-time to the other timeline of the present?

I am actually more confused as to what he asked, what you interpreted in that question and how what he asked is related to the thread.

 

[PrinceofPein]

yes

Honestly I still do not get how that is a valid question but I will say
then I will say no, by default a timeline would contain time from the past, present and future.
but if you have a statement of two different timelines, then by default they are saptio-temporally separate

I am actually more confused as to what he asked, what you interpreted in that question and how what he asked is related to the thread.

same here tbh, it is really confusing

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

I am confused by this question, if it is possible please rephrase it?
Do you mean if one timeline is considered to be of different space-time to the other timeline of the present?

For example: a certain character has a quote that he disappeared from this space and time, but the other character followed by the distortion of space and time created by the character (going to another space-time)

 

[PrinceofPein]

For example: a certain character has a quote that he disappeared from this space and time, but the other character followed by the distortion of space and time created by the character (going to another space-time)

Can you send the feat, this is not enough to go off alone
and disppeared from space and time may mean that he went into another space-time or that he simply teleported far away or into another timeline
so sending the feat here will help

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Can you send the feat, this is not enough to go off alone
and disppeared from space and time may mean that he went into another space-time or that he simply teleported far away or into another timeline
so sending the feat here will help

ok, I have the mentions in Portuguese, I'm at work, so later I'll look for the English one.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Can you send the feat, this is not enough to go off alone
and disppeared from space and time may mean that he went into another space-time or that he simply teleported far away or into another timeline
so sending the feat here will help

translation: Disappeared from this space and time...



Translation: It seems that somehow I followed you down the same path you left in space-time...

 

[PrinceofPein]

translation: Disappeared from this space and time...

this does not mean left the universe, simply means that he teleported, also unless the character making this statement has cosmic awareness, or can cover the whole universe with their sensory power the statement does not mean much

Translation: It seems that somehow I followed you down the same path you left in space-time...

followed you through the portal

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I think the thing about this is that for different timelines, you cannot really reach another timeline by speed, no matter what your speed becomes you either travel back in time or forward in time
and for contained space-times, you cannot reach an end or rather to break out you still need to open a portal or teleportaion and still you must be able to tranverse the space separating them which by default will be much larger than the contained space-time itself, which is why been able to cross through universes that are supposed to be spatio-temporal seperate with physical speed alone is not really possible.

The problem however is that there are times in fiction where sheer speed by itself is able to break through space-time by force to physically go into different dimensions that are normally separated by space-time barriers, which is why that’s supposed to be a qualifier for infinite / immeasurable. And since we acknowledge that speed that can physically go to different time points can be considered such, on a level, we already acknowledge this isn’t really impossible.

Now since Dragon Ball either way has nothing to do this complaint about the general standards, and I don’t want to derail this too much

All I really wanted to point out is that the principal itself is something I can agree with, I just think if a verse can sufficiently prove the speed of the character is just that great, we shouldn’t automatically use the travel feat as a knock against universes being separate space-times.

 

[Stefano4444]

I just think if a verse can sufficiently prove the speed of the character is just that great, we shouldn’t automatically use the travel feat as a knock against universes being desperate space-times.

Would kind of feats also knock against the notion of parallel universes be only spatially separated as well?

 

[AKM sama]

I am late to this discussion, my apologies. But I'm assuming there is a TLDR other than what's in the OP since the thread is already at page 5?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Basically, the OP is asking for evidence about Universe 7, Universe 6, ect being separate timelines and thus validating "Timelines" as being 2-C sized structures. Planck agrees with downgrading the Timelines to Low 2-C and making the 12 universes 3-A sized individually solely because Super Dragon Balls can travel from universe to universe "Via flight" which isn't a knock but could just be them having dimensional travel. Some also asked for evidence about Whis' flight ability being dimensional travel. Which I do recall an in Anime statement of Whis mentioning it but forgot what episode plus he can fly from afterlife to living universe which are different bodies of space even if condensed in the same timeline. And Glass is long story short still saying Zamasu's feat would still be Low 2-C because he allegedly merged with Trunks' entire timeline and not just Universe 7 which has been argued against for years. Also, I do remember a guidebook scan about the Universe mentioning spatial-temporal barriers but forgot where it was but others also brought up in Anime statements about barriers in time and space between universes.

Another argument attempted was some people trying to claim Hit was able to travel from U6 to U7, but Luffy debunked that with one of the main plot points of the U6 tournament of him wanting to receive a cube that enables dimensional travel. And his assassination attempt on Goku also required assistance from Whis and Vados.

TLDR, while I agree that there shouldn't be any downgrades. People just want to see the specific scans with their eyes of U7 and U6 being different timelines or having statements about spatial temporal barriers. Which I do remember being brought up a long time ago, but forgot where specific statements were. They should be in profiles and not just in those ancient threads yes.

Edit: I also forgot to mention this post containing past discussions.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Planck agrees with downgrading the Timelines to Low 2-C and making the 12 universes 3-A sized individually solely because Super Dragon Balls can travel from universe to universe "Via flight" which isn't a knock but could just be them having dimensional travel. Some also asked for evidence about Whis' flight ability being dimensional travel.

This excerpt from our Tiering System FAQ explains this point in detail

To be frank I do not recall Whis’ flight being stated to have special properties. Whis simply says he’s the fastest person in the cosmos.

 

[Reiner04]

I am late to this discussion, my apologies. But I'm assuming there is a TLDR other than what's in the OP since the thread is already at page 5?

The thread was quite silent in start when we were in 1st page but after 2 days the silence broke for some unknown reasons and everybody started debating w/o stopping but there is.

TL;DR other than the OP,

• Even if RoSaT is not a part of universe 7, it's still a part of timeline as changing past creates new timeline and all timeline contains RoSaT, means RoSaT is affected.
  • Counter argument to this: RoSaT is not being affected by time travel but rather the new timeline that copies the original also copies the story of kami, who have Destiny to eventually create RoSaT, kami and creation of RoSaT fate is intertwined within all of time and space.
• Whis, SDBs, champa's cube, etc have dimensional travel. They can fly from one universe to another because of dimensional flight, it's not normal flight.
  • Counter argument to this: universes inside of same Timeline aren't considered separate spacetime's unless there is a multiversal/higher dimensional axis separating them, especially after recent tier 2 revision that passed, it is now a thing that crossing universes through mere 3 Dimensional movement/flight movement means that they're not separate spacetime's. Neutral space itself can be transversed through mere 3 Dimensional movement, whis as well crosses universes by mere 3 dimensional movement, cubes and especially SDBs. So yeah, Dimensional travel doesn't really matter.

 

[omegabronic]

I am late to this discussion, my apologies. But I'm assuming there is a TLDR other than what's in the OP since the thread is already at page 5?

firstly, good to see you

td,dr is: basically the only reason we accepted the 12 universes as space times was because of the rosat being an confirmed space time and being part of the universe, so it would branch along with it making accptable that other space times could be affect by time paradoxes that happen in just one of them, but as of now, the rosat was accepted as not being part of the universe anymore, that made it so that we had no reason to assume that the 12 universe multiverse in db were space times, since they were all affect by time paradoxes, this and plus the new standards for tier 2 where physical travel is impossible with 3D movement between space times and the need of having a higher 5D dimension separating the supossed space times for universes to be considered space times, in db both were disproven as the angels and the super dragon balls can travel between universes normally with flight and we have confirmed information that what is in between universes is not a higher dimension:

Whis just flies to Universe 10’s Kaioshin Realm to meet with Gowasu and Zamasu (DBS Episode 52 - 53).

Whis flew from Universe 7’s living realm to Universe 10’s Kaioshin realm and Vados flew to Universe 7’s Kaioshin realm.

Luffy, we discussed this in the previous thread.
The kanji used is 空間, which translates into "space; room; airspace", as in a physical space. Like outer space.

this one of null flower is about the neutral space that separates universes first shown in the tournament between uni 6 and 7
so basically all that makes the 12 universe not alternate spacetimes and just 3-A structures rather then low 2-C ones

edit: as pointed by executor_N0 the term most likely is referring to dimensional space, aka another dimension, but since the term for higher dimension is not used, then the end result is the same

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

Which logic are you going with btw. I cannot comprehend this. Way out from this calculation. DB universes will be 3D, timeline will be 4D. Nothing is 2D here.

Nvm I just thought about it the distance would be 4D

The reasons being…?

i think it’s implied that his staff allows him to do so as in guides I remember it being stated that it’s not possible to reach other realms and universe without teleportation

 

[omegabronic]

i think it’s implied that his staff allows him to do so as in guides I remember it being stated that it’s not possible to reach other realms and universe without teleportation

if said dimensional travel is made with flight and 3D movement, then it doesn't matter much

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

if said dimensional travel is made with flight and 3D movement, then it doesn't matter much

When is it shown with normal flight and 3D movement? Are you still talking about Hit

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Actually, how do we know if something is 3D movement?

 

[omegabronic]

When is it shown with normal flight and 3D movement? Are you still talking about Hit

i am talking about the fact that the in between space between universes is not a higher dimension, but just regular 3D space:

Luffy, we discussed this in the previous thread.
The kanji used is 空間, which translates into "space; room; airspace", as in a physical space. Like outer space.

as per our faq it needs to be a higher dimension for the universes to be space times

 

[Executor_N0]

Luffy, we discussed this in the previous thread.
The kanji used is 空間, which translates into "space; room; airspace", as in a physical space. Like outer space.

It's can also be used in fiction in general to talk about something that is another realm, universe, or what is generically thought of as a parallel or pocket dimension. It's one of those odd definitions that are more in-fiction and you wouldn't find in a dictionary, but is relatively common in Japanse Fiction with that meaning. Terms like "Different Space", "Parallel Space" and similar are even more direct ways of talking about it in the meaning of a generic parallel/pocket Dimension.

 

[omegabronic]

It's can also be used in fiction in general to talk about something that is another realm, universe, or what is generically thought of as a parallel or pocket dimension. It's one of those odd definitions that are more in-fiction and you wouldn't find in a dictionary, but is relatively common in Japanse Fiction with that meaning. Terms like "Different Space", "Parallel Space" and similar are even more direct ways of talking about it in the meaning of a generic parallel/pocket Dimension.

interesting, so what do you think it means here? in fact what is the term for "higher dimension"?

 

[Executor_N0]

interesting, so what do you think it means here? in fact what is the term for "higher dimension"?

There's so little context to DB cosmology recently that I think it could work either way as talking about space because they were shared spaces of space because they exist in parallel spaces.

The term for Higher Dimension is Kō Jigen (高次元), and I think it has been used before in Dragon Ball considering some subs I saw before, but it was in the meaning of a "greater power", something that is also common in Japanese fiction and isn't literally talking about higher space-time dimensions. And of course, there are multiple terms that can be used in any cosmology that would share the meaning to what could be considered a higher dimension (Such as Higher/Super/Hyper space, domain, etc), but that depends a lot on each cosmology and I would say that if there isn't any in-universe context, it's better to not try and generilize vague statements like that.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

There's so little context to DB cosmology recently that I think it could work either way as talking about space because they were shared spaces of space because they exist in parallel spaces.

The term for Higher Dimension is Kō Jigen (高次元), and I think it has been used before in Dragon Ball considering some subs I saw before, but it was in the meaning of a "greater power", something that is also common in Japanese fiction and isn't literally talking about higher space-time dimensions. And of course, there are multiple terms that can be used in any cosmology that would share the meaning to what could be considered a higher dimension (Such as Higher/Super/Hyper space, domain, etc), but that depends a lot on each cosmology and I would say that if there isn't any in-universe context, it's better to not try and generilize vague statements like that.

and this one?

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

It's can also be used in fiction in general to talk about something that is another realm, universe, or what is generically thought of as a parallel or pocket dimension. It's one of those odd definitions that are more in-fiction and you wouldn't find in a dictionary, but is relatively common in Japanse Fiction with that meaning. Terms like "Different Space", "Parallel Space" and similar are even more direct ways of talking about it in the meaning of a generic parallel/pocket Dimension.

To add on to that, Dragon Ball Super is no exception to this, in fact it seems to be it's prominent way of using 空間, being in the sense of a different space/dimension.

 

[Executor_N0]

12 宇宙とは異なる空間に浮かぶ惑星
Planets floating in different spaces from that of the 12 universes

As I said before, calling "different space" (異なる空間), does sound more how they call what is generically here a different dimension, especially considering that they put stuff like the World of Void.

Also, looking into the complete scan

They put the nameless planet in the "neutral space between universes" in the same "space different from that of the 12 universes" as the World of Void and Zen'O palace. So yes, here it's completely in the meaning of a different dimensional space and can be used as proof that the neutral space between universes is like a "neutral dimension between universes", unless the World of Void is now seen just as another part of the same universal space that all 12 universes share and you can get there with a spaceship.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

12 宇宙とは異なる空間に浮かぶ惑星
Planets floating in different spaces from that of the 12 universes

As I said before, calling "different space" (異なる空間), does sound more how they call what is generically here a different dimension, especially considering that they put stuff like the World of Void.

Also, looking into the complete scan

They put the nameless planet in the "neutral space between universes" in the same "space different from that of the 12 universes" as the World of Void and Zen'O palace. So yes, here it's completely in the meaning of a different dimensional space and can be used as proof that the neutral space between universes is like a "neutral dimension between universes", unless the World of Void is now seen just as another part of the same universal space that all 12 universes share and you can get there with a spaceship.

no, the world of emptiness is only accessible with BFR or teleportation, as far as I know.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

12 宇宙とは異なる空間に浮かぶ惑星
Planets floating in different spaces from that of the 12 universes

As I said before, calling "different space" (異なる空間), does sound more how they call what is generically here a different dimension, especially considering that they put stuff like the World of Void.

Also, looking into the complete scan

They put the nameless planet in the "neutral space between universes" in the same "space different from that of the 12 universes" as the World of Void and Zen'O palace. So yes, here it's completely in the meaning of a different dimensional space and can be used as proof that the neutral space between universes is like a "neutral dimension between universes", unless the World of Void is now seen just as another part of the same universal space that all 12 universes share and you can get there with a spaceship.

I wanted to know your opinion about

dimension of swirling lights



This is the dimension that Brolly and Gogeta broke



it is said superdimensional battle



Hermes mentions about this dimension too





It is also said to have superdimensional images.

https://imgur.com/a/5WZ4Pda

 

[Executor_N0]

Those are of course references to a different dimension from the conventional space where the story takes place. What they really mean and where they fit in the overall cosmology is something I can't say.

 

[omegabronic]

There's so little context to DB cosmology recently that I think it could work either way as talking about space because they were shared spaces of space because they exist in parallel spaces.

The term for Higher Dimension is Kō Jigen (高次元), and I think it has been used before in Dragon Ball considering some subs I saw before, but it was in the meaning of a "greater power", something that is also common in Japanese fiction and isn't literally talking about higher space-time dimensions. And of course, there are multiple terms that can be used in any cosmology that would share the meaning to what could be considered a higher dimension (Such as Higher/Super/Hyper space, domain, etc), but that depends a lot on each cosmology and I would say that if there isn't any in-universe context, it's better to not try and generilize vague statements like that.

okay understood, thank you executor

I wanted to know your opinion about

dimension of swirling lights



This is the dimension that Brolly and Gogeta broke



it is said superdimensional battle



Hermes mentions about this dimension too





It is also said to have superdimensional images.

https://imgur.com/a/5WZ4Pda

i don't see how any of that is relevant to the thread, this is yet another dimension sure, but now we are talking about the dimensional space in between universes, "super dimensional battle" is a vague way to say that they are strong, regardless this is derailing, it is not relevant to the topic at hand

 

[Antvasima]

I still think that Medeus makes sense above.

Also, thank you for helping out, Executor_N0.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

okay understood, thank you executor


i don't see how any of that is relevant to the thread, this is yet another dimension sure, but now we are talking about the dimensional space in between universes, "super dimensional battle" is a vague way to say that they are strong, regardless this is derailing, it is not relevant to the topic at hand

please stop picking on me, I'm just showing it to someone who knows about dimension and Japanese, it's proof, there was no spam or derailment

 

[Antvasima]

Well, it is appreciated that you find so much concrete evidence for us to use here.

 

[omegabronic]

please stop picking on me, I'm just showing it to someone who knows about dimension and Japanese, it's proof, there was no spam or derailment

it is when that doesn't concern the thread, this thread the universes themselves, not about yet another set of dimensions, alas i will not respond this topic any longer

 

[Nullflowerblush]

So yes, here it's completely in the meaning of a different dimensional space and can be used as proof that the neutral space between universes is like a "neutral dimension between universes", unless the World of Void is now seen just as another part of the same universal space that all 12 universes share and you can get there with a spaceship.

Well, nobody ever said one couldn't travel to the World of Void via spaceship.

I mean, the Dragon Ball Super: Interval Special - DB X DBS Arcs, from which the "description" (very loose quotes; the entire thing is a brief retread of previously established information) of the locations derives, describes a travel between Universe 7 and Zen-Oh's Palace as two-days-long without mention of any special, dimension-hopping movement abilities or teleportation. In fact, the Interval Special explicitly distinguishes between the two-day ETA and the instantaneous transportation that the Zen-Oh Button provides, which strongly suggests that Zen-Oh's Palace can be accessed through conventional means; such means are strenuous is all. Besides, again, the Neutral Zone between Universes 6 and 7 is portrayed as a region of outer space, complete with stars and galaxies and potentially even planets, and is even depicted identically to the cosmos of Universe 7. By all accounts, barring an argument over the meaning of kanji, the Neutral Zone is 3D space, and if the Neutral Zone encompasses the World of Void and Zen-Oh's Palace, then that means the latter two exist within the same 3D space surrounding the twelve universes.

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

Well, nobody ever said one couldn't travel to the World of Void via spaceship.

I mean, the Dragon Ball Super: Interval Special - DB X DBS Arcs, from which the "description" (very loose quotes; the entire thing is a brief retread of previously established information) of the locations derives, describes a travel between Universe 7 and Zen-Oh's Palace as two-days-long without mention of any special, dimension-hopping movement abilities or teleportation. In fact, the Interval Special explicitly distinguishes between the two-day ETA and the instantaneous transportation that the Zen-Oh Button provides, which strongly suggests that Zen-Oh's Palace can be accessed through conventional means; such means are strenuous is all. Besides, again, the Neutral Zone between Universes 6 and 7 is portrayed as a region of outer space, complete with stars and galaxies and potentially even planets, and is even depicted identically to the cosmos of Universe 7. By all accounts, barring an argument over the meaning of kanji, the Neutral Zone is 3D space, and if the Neutral Zone encompasses the World of Void and Zen-Oh's Palace, then that means the latter two exist within the same 3D space surrounding the twelve universes.

Well what you said didn’t really match up with the scans but I noticed you mention Universe 7 and Zenos palace travel taking 2 days that was with whis’s staff