Dragon Ball Clean-Up and Revisions

[ByAsura]

I forgot about that. True, then.

Still, I don't really see what relevance Vegeta being "fine enough to launch a final assault" has.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

I agree, but the Z-Fighters always mention that they were inferior in power. They knew the androids were simply toying with them.

That is becauae Android 18 taunted Vegeta throughout the fight, purposely angering him and causing him to blindly attack her while she played on the defensive side at first, as we can see since she barely attack Vegeta at first, and only when he's weakened she goes fully offensive and attack him, since she never loses stamina while he does

 

[ByAsura]

That's not what I meant. I meant they were going fairly easy on the Z-Fighters. The fact that they didn't slaughter them all is kind of a testament to that.

Anyway, everyone later goes on to say that the Androids are stronger than them.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

That's not what I meant. I meant they were going fairly easy on the Z-Fighters. The fact that they didn't slaughter them all is kind of a testament to that.

Anyway, everyone later goes on to say that the Androids are stronger than them.

Sure, though not killing them doesn't mean they held back. We see Goku using his full P
power against Frieza, but he didn't kill him

The Androids simply didn't wanted to kill the Z fighters so they just knocked them out. While I agree that the Z fighters are inferior, I don't agree that it is to such a degree

 

[ByAsura]

Contextually, we know they held back somewhat, and this is reinforced by the characters. 17 was far superior to Cell, at that time, but Piccolo wasn't obliterated by him and thought he was a lot weaker than Cell.

I'm not saying the power they displayed against the Z-Fighters was ludicrously above Vegeta, just above him, although I'd definitely say Trunks and Piccolo were laughably inferior to them.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Contextually, we know they held back somewhat, and this is reinforced by the characters. 17 was far superior to Cell, at that time, but Piccolo wasn't obliterated by him and thought he was a lot weaker than Cell.

I'm not saying the power they displayed against the Z-Fighters was ludicrously above Vegeta, just above him, although I'd definitely say Trunks and Piccolo were laughably inferior to them.

That I can agree with. They were definitely superior to the Z fighters, but Vegeta wasn't too inferior to them. And yeah, Trunks did absolutely nothing to Android 18, who blocked his strongest slash with one arm, and casually

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Okay, this seemed to get all over the place, but I will note that there are 2 versions of Imperfect Cell; he was initially a lot weaker than Piccolo and 17, but later grew a lot stronger and far surpassed both of them but was still only 16's level albeit possibly a bit weaker.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Okay, this seemed to get all over the place, but I will note that there are 2 versions of Imperfect Cell; he was initially a lot weaker than Piccolo and 17, but later grew a lot stronger and far surpassed both of them but was still only 16's level albeit possibly a bit weaker.

So Imperfect Cell should just get a new key if that's the case

 

[Vizer04]

Nothing much here. Goku scales far above Frieza's first form, which is 1.6 Tenatons, meaning his Super Saiyan form is much higher than 80 Tenatons (Small Star level+). However, I think Super Saiyan Goku could have a "possibly Star level" or an "at least" due to the sheer gap between Frieza's First Form and Goku's base.

• Frieza, in all incarnations, effortlessly used a single finger to destroy Planet Vegeta. He was even laughing right after, whereas 3rd Zenkai Vegeta at least made him struggle. Already full power Frieza surpasses the Supernova he used on Planet Vegeta by a somewhat considerable margin.
• 1st Form Frieza implies Vegeta was right that Gohan, Vegeta and Krillin could win if they fought together, which is further supported by Frieza needing to transform at all. In contrast, a massively suppressed (the latter panel is his full power against Piccolo) 2nd Form Frieza terrified the Z-Fighters and left them powerless, with Vegeta even describing his full power as limitless.
• At full strength, Piccolo is implied to surpass 2nd Form Frieza, despite the latter previously wrecking him with weights. 3rd Form Frieza is significantly stronger than before and effortlessly outclassed Piccolo in speed and power.
• Just after transforming, Frieza's heavily suppressed Final Form was stated to make any of his previous forms look gentle. It's further confirmed by Daizenshuu that the power he used to kill Vegeta (including deflecting his most powerful attacks) was far greater than his Third Form, and base Goku was still holding back while fighting Frieza at that level.
• The fact that Goku's power level at this stage is 3,000,000 and Frieza's First Form measures only 530,000 is just the icing on the cake.

Casual Supernova < 1st Form Frieza < (Gohan + Krillin + Vegeta) << Supressed 2nd Form Frieza < Casual 2nd Form ~ Weighted Piccolo (Fusion) << Full Power 2nd Form Frieza < Unweighted Piccolo (Fusion) << 3rd Form Frieza << Suppressed Final Form Frieza = Suppressed Goku < Full Power Base Goku.

You forgot the gap between Vegeta (Post-Zenkai) and Suppressed Final Form Frieza.

Vegeta's PL was massively stronger than 3rd Form Frieza.

 

[Vizer04]

Vegeta knew that his Final Form would be massively stronger than his Third Form just like all his previous transformations and despite this he still believed he could win after being healed by Dende.

So, the gap between 3rd Form Frieza and Vegeta (Post-Zenkai) should be bigger than the gap between 3rd Form Frieza and Piccolo and the gap between 2nd Form Frieza and and Vegeta.

Unweighted Piccolo (Fusion) << 3rd Form Frieza <<< Final Form Frieza (Expected Power) < Vegeta (Post-Zenkai) << Suppressed Final Form Frieza = Suppressed Goku < Full Power Base Goku.

 

[RisingIons]

I forgot about that. True, then.

Still, I don't really see what relevance Vegeta being "fine enough to launch a final assault" has.

Vegeta took physical strikes and ki blasts from Buu and was fine. Same for Gotenks. Gohan got one-shot in this scenario, so they are stronger than him. To suggest they aren't stronger than him pre-training is to suggest they would have difficulty with defeating Dabura or outright lose. Dabura was also clapped out of life with like two hits befor becoming a cookie.

 

[AKM sama]

Super Saiyan being x50 is already accepted so yeah.

Most of this looks good to me.

I agree with Null's take on SSJ2 Gohan vs SPC thing.

 

[ByAsura]

You forgot the gap between Vegeta (Post-Zenkai) and Suppressed Final Form Frieza.

Vegeta's PL was massively stronger than 3rd Form Frieza.

Vegeta knew that his Final Form would be massively stronger than his Third Form just like all his previous transformations and despite this he still believed he could win after being healed by Dende.

So, the gap between 3rd Form Frieza and Vegeta (Post-Zenkai) should be bigger than the gap between 3rd Form Frieza and Piccolo and the gap between 2nd Form Frieza and and Vegeta.

Unweighted Piccolo (Fusion) << 3rd Form Frieza <<< Final Form Frieza (Expected Power) < Vegeta (Post-Zenkai) << Suppressed Final Form Frieza = Suppressed Goku < Full Power Base Goku.

I didn't forget it, it just seemed like Vegeta was way too arrogant here to see the proper size of the power gap between them.

Vegeta took physical strikes and ki blasts from Buu and was fine. Same for Gotenks. Gohan got one-shot in this scenario, so they are stronger than him. To suggest they aren't stronger than him pre-training is to suggest they would have difficulty with defeating Dabura or outright lose. Dabura was also clapped out of life with like two hits befor becoming a cookie.

Weakened Gohan, once again. He'd also taken a massive from Buu prior that could also weaken someone like Dabura (he was huffing and puffing), so he'd be even more weakened than putting all his energy into a blast.

No it doesn't, it just suggests a character doesn't need to be SS2 level to survive against Buu.

Dabura survived with relatively minimal damage, even after Buu poked his eyes. Buu used the cookie beam on him.

Anyway, your point in the first place was that this scales linearly to Goten and Trunks. Nothing suggests this, to my knowledge, so I don't see much point in arguing.

Edit: I found one guide that said this, but I also found a litany of others that say the opposite. It doesn't really make much sense, either, because their first transformation into Base Gotenks far surpassed Goten and Trunks' Super Saiyan forms. Also, all subsequent media portrays his lower forms as far higher than Goku and Vegeta's higher forms.

 

[RisingIons]

Bruh you take “weakened” and really exaggerate it. Gohan overpowered Cell while not at 100% and with a broken arm. Weakened and not being at 100% aren’t treated the same. He had no serious bodily injury.

“Relatively minimal damage” The same scan showing Dabura literally trying to catch his breath while his body is shaking.

Sure you don’t need to be SS2 level if Buu isn’t serious in trying to harm you, nobody is attempting to upgrade the Kaioshin or the rest of the Z fighters. And again, pre-training literally doesn’t matter, I’m talking about post-training and his eventual DBS key if they decide to give him more feats. Daizenshuu 7 already puts post-training base Gotenks as “beyond Vegeta and the others”.

My point is if the fusion multiplier is applied to a character then the inverse of the formula can also be applied to the individual characters.

The only counter to that point was someone bringing up Kefla being > SSG, but Kale alone already ragdolled SSB Goku previously before perfecting her transformation, so they already had extreme power potential to begin with.

 

[ByAsura]

Gohan overpowered Cell because he stopped holding back. His Ki was explicitly cut right in half. It's made very clear on numerous occasions, such as the fight with Goku and Cell or Vegeta and Frieza, that massive attacks drain a ton of strength.

The same scan shows that Dabura was bleeding a little, and he's quite fine moments later. Gotenks took arguably more damage, though seemingly over a much longer period.

Ok, post-training is completely fine. I can agree with you there because I was never talking about that.

Which is not true if it multiplies the characters themselves, as I said. We can't really say for certain.

Base Kale (I say this because Kefla was outmatching him in base) is not Legendary Super Saiyan Kale, she's a weakling that was outmatched by absolute fodder. Also, Goku in the Japanese dub apparently said that he was using a little more power than SS2 (according to the wiki, anyway), which fits in line with a vastly more powerful controlled Legendary Super Saiyan 2 Kale being outmatched by a slightly weakened SS3/SSG Goku.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Goku was also explicably holding back against Kale in order to test her power

 

[RisingIons]

Gohan overpowered Cell because he stopped holding back. His Ki was explicitly cut right in half. It's made very clear on numerous occasions, such as the fight with Goku and Cell or Vegeta and Frieza, that massive attacks drain a ton of strength.

So what you’re saying is 100% of 50% Gohan scales to Cell?

 

[ByAsura]

Maybe not exactly, because Cell was somewhat distracted. But that's what we currently accept.

As I said before, Gohan was holding back.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

So what you’re saying is 100% of 50% Gohan scales to Cell?

Gohan with less than half of his power remaining and while subconsciously holding back managed to push back against Cell's Kamehameha for an extended period of time, even after Cell pumped extra energy into the blast; although, to be fair, Gohan was getting gradually overpowered as time passed.

However, once Goku motivated him and Vegeta gave him an opening to unleash to his full power, he completely wiped Cell.

 

[RisingIons]

I was gonna say because that would mean at full SS2 he scales to 2x SPC but his arm being broken in an attack meant to kill Vegeta is an anti-feat

 

[Spinoirr]

Yeah because gohan was holding back (because his rage boosts are actually his true power) then because he doubts himself

 

[ByAsura]

Bump

I just realised we rate Dabura as equal to Cell and far superior to Shin, so he'd probably be Large Star level+ with DDM's numbers in this calculation.

 

[Spinoirr]

They are large star level+ via scaleing chain and multipliers

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

They are large star level+ via scaleing chain and multipliers

No they're not, they're large star+ because of shin's feat.

 

[ByAsura]

They are large star level+ via scaleing chain and multipliers

Which I was planning to downgrade because it doesn't make sense. With Shin's feat, there's no need.

 

[Spinoirr]

Is their base forms in the Buu saga large star level+ via being stronger then shin or their ssj forms?

 

[ByAsura]

SSJ.

 

[Spinoirr]

Ah so they will still be star level in base form then

 

[ByAsura]

They already are. It's just a slight mistake on my part, although I think we should edit the profiles to make it more apparent.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Others have voiced that there are issues with that calculation and uses random assumptions or that it assumes those stars have the same density as the sun. Though, I might need to revaluate the Android saga characters to see when the tier jump should take place.

 

[ByAsura]

Unless they're Red/Blue Giants or something, they probably would. If the calculation did use them, I'd recommend revising it with Wolf-Rayet Stars as a starting point.

I think Perfect Cell is best. MSSJ Goku/Gohan are the only ones even remotely close to him, and that's already kind of debatable.

 

[RisingIons]

Speaking of Shin, I was doing some reading into supreme kais, and it states that they've only created planets, unless the official japanese says something otherwise.

 

[ByAsura]

That probably makes sense, imo. Beerus goes after planets to make way for new life, and the Kais are their opposites.

 

[Spinoirr]

Speaking of Shin, I was doing some reading into supreme kais, and it states that they've only created planets, unless the official japanese says something otherwise.

Need a scan of it to prove that

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Super Perfect Cell is like 50x above baseline 4-B, so even having 2% of his power would net a 4-B rating. But that's also a super iffy downscale. I think it's safest if the strongest Android saga characters were simply High 4-C. Though, I may notice times where characters are at least 2x stronger in terms of AP. IMO, overpowering two or more characters who are evenly matched at once appears to be fine to stack AP, but against using that to stack speed. For example, even before the 1st form Frieza upgrade, SSJ Trunks was accepted as being twice as strong as Mecha Frieza by the sound of it. 17 and 18 also basically did something similar; 17 oneshotted the combined might of SSJ Trunks and Piccolo who are pretty equal at the time. Cell also has a couple similar instances like that. But I will need to update my blog when I have time and energy and step by step all the multipliers and arrow stacking.

Also, Hoshi can mean planet or stars, but the former is usually safer. Though I might be thinking of Kid Buu's statements, but there was a description that said "Planets and stars". But I think I also agree that it's more so stated Shin only created planets.

 

[Spinoirr]

Also that would explain why shin didn't do Anything against freeza and also why he was terrified of people with power levels of freezas level such as pui pui

 

[Spinoirr]

Also if ssj2 Goku and vegeta are stronger then ssj2 gohan then logically their ssj from should be at least 2 times weaker then their ssj2 forms and base form 50 times weaker then their ssj forms

 

[ByAsura]

Shin's still above Frieza. All the Supreme Kais can one-shot him.

We're not accepting the SSJ2 multiplier.

 

[Spinoirr]

Huh why

Gohan is a special case as his ssj2 form is actually his true power. That's why he was actually hurt by super perfect cell despite being able to kill cell at half power

Because Gohan doubts himself and that in turn makes him weaker. So it should be 2 times for Goku and Vegeta because Gohan is basically a special case

 

[RisingIons]

Need a scan of it to prove that

Rather than Kaiōshin-sama making planets, he is able to provide the impetus for them to be born. Also, he will sometimes divide up one planet and increase the number of planets. He will even do things like create life-forms, or transplant them from another planet, but his basic job is to watch over the numerous planets. Because the number of planets is so very large, the four Kaiō-sama help him out as well. They intervene if it appears that the world’s balance will crumble, but normally, they merely act in an advisory role for new life-forms, and don’t get involved. In order to provide a balance to the constantly increasing number of planets, the God of Destruction destroys [them], but he does not act on Kaiōshin’s orders; he destroys according to his own individual judgment. Except, he is capricious, so he will destroy even an important world without a second thought, or when he finds it bothersome, let someone else act as an agent of destruction.
— “Dragon Ball Chōzenshū 1: Story & World Guide” (p. 31)