Dragon Ball Clean-Up and Revisions

[ByAsura]

Keep in mind that not all of this thread is about upgrading and downgrading characters. Most of it is recontextualizing and tightening some of DB's pretty haphazard scaling so it doesn't seem like a lot of ratings come out of nowhere, which Vegeta and the Androids are largely victims of.

50x Super Saiyan​

Evidence​

Firstly, the Super Saiyan multiplier is confirmed to exist in some capacity by Toriyama, who claims in the Super Exciting Guide (2009) that it was considered a 50-fold increase, but felt it was 10x. He only claims he felt it was 10x base level, and we can apply Death of the Author since Super Saiyan has proven far superior to Kaioken x10 and 20 in the very same saga.

• Only, at the time, it was considered that his strength would increase 50-fold when he became a Super Saiyan, but that was a bit of an exaggeration. My feeling as the creator is that, while drawing it, I felt that it was about a 10-fold change from what it was up to that point.

It's also confirmed by Daizenshuu 6 (1995), 7 (1996) and the Super Exciting/Battle Power Guide itself. The Super Saiyan 2 and 3 multipliers aren't actually featured in two sources like the DBZ wiki links it as (not saying they're wrong or disingenuous, just that the sources are technically the same) because the Super Exciting Guide is actually featured in that battle power guide (copied from the original site, as it was deleted).

Secondly, even though the Super Exciting Guide Multipliers are inconsistent, the Super Saiyan multiplier is supported by the manga itself. Frieza was using less than half power against Goku, even telling him "just about" half. At this level of power, he used a single hand to block Goku's fully-charged kamehameha, only receiving relatively minimal damage after blocking it. This same attack (charged for the same amount of panels as the Kaioken x20 kamehameha) once nearly tripled Goku's power level and harmed Raditz.

Also, Super Saiyan Goku actually surpasses Frieza at full power, which is supported by his higher power level. It's implied that he was holding back until everyone was removed, and then went at full power afterwards to fully shatter Frieza's pride.

Both DarkDragonMedeus and AKM Sama have voiced their agreement with the Super Saiyan multiplier, so I hopefully have the support of two staff members already.

Scaling Changes​

Nothing much here. Goku scales far above Frieza's first form, which is 1.6 Tenatons, meaning his Super Saiyan form is much higher than 80 Tenatons (Small Star level+). However, I think Super Saiyan Goku could have a "possibly Star level" or an "at least" due to the sheer gap between Frieza's First Form and Goku's base.

• Frieza, in all incarnations, effortlessly used a single finger to destroy Planet Vegeta. He was even laughing right after, whereas 3rd Zenkai Vegeta at least made him struggle. Already full power Frieza surpasses the Supernova he used on Planet Vegeta by a somewhat considerable margin.
• 1st Form Frieza implies Vegeta was right that Gohan, Vegeta and Krillin could win if they fought together, which is further supported by Frieza needing to transform at all. In contrast, a massively suppressed (the latter panel is his full power against Piccolo) 2nd Form Frieza terrified the Z-Fighters and left them powerless, with Vegeta even describing his full power as limitless.
• At full strength, Piccolo is implied to surpass 2nd Form Frieza, despite the latter previously wrecking him with weights. 3rd Form Frieza is significantly stronger than before and effortlessly outclassed Piccolo in speed and power.
• Just after transforming, Frieza's heavily suppressed Final Form was stated to make any of his previous forms look gentle. It's further confirmed by Daizenshuu that the power he used to kill Vegeta (including deflecting his most powerful attacks) was far greater than his Third Form, and base Goku was still holding back while fighting Frieza at that level.
• The fact that Goku's power level at this stage is 3,000,000 and Frieza's First Form measures only 530,000 is just the icing on the cake.

Casual Supernova < 1st Form Frieza < (Gohan + Krillin + Vegeta) << Supressed 2nd Form Frieza < Casual 2nd Form ~ Weighted Piccolo (Fusion) << Full Power 2nd Form Frieza < Unweighted Piccolo (Fusion) << 3rd Form Frieza << Suppressed Final Form Frieza = Suppressed Goku < Full Power Base Goku.

Character Changes​

Vegeta/Future Trunks​

Android Saga​

In the manga, Piccolo states that Super Vegeta could be stronger than "even Goku." I think we ignore the statement due to the Heart Virus, but there's supporting evidence.

Gohan confirms that Goku was never unhealthy before the Android Saga and didn't need to take the medicine. The effects of the heart virus only manifested itself when Goku was fighting the Androids, which was implied to be accelerated by going Super Saiyan. Basically, he would have been around his full power during training, which included sparring with Piccolo. This actually adds credence to Piccolo's claim that Goku could be inferior to Vegeta.

However, Kami says that Vegeta is potentially stronger than Trunks, and implies that Goku is more powerful than either of them. Kami's statement is already questionable given Trunks' performance against the Androids, but, at the very least, Android Saga Super Saiyan Vegeta should be placed above Yardrat Goku with all the evidence.

Cell Saga​

16 and 18's comment implied that Super Saiyan Vegeta at least stood a chance against Semi-Perfect Cell. Although he wasn't at full power, 16 still knew that S-PC was massively more powerful and far superior to himself. Similarly, Trunks is pretty shocked that Vegeta choses to start off the fight as a Super Saiyan Grade 2 (more accurate and explicit translation here). If that's not enough evidence, Super Saiyan Trunks, who is slightly inferior to Vegeta, was powerful enough to gatekeep S-PC without even becoming a Grade 2.

Post-Cell Saga Future Trunks knocked Future Cell kilometres from the city. This caused Cell to sweat and say Trunks was stronger than he believed, but he seemingly powered up after Trunks went Super Saiyan. For reference, the main Cell absorbed 15,000 humans, whereas his future counterpart seemingly absorbed no one. FC implied he was stronger than future 17 & 18, which is corroborated by the fact that he knew pre-Hyperbolic Time Chamber Trunks was weaker than them. So Post-Time Chamber base Trunks isn't too far inferior to his Super Saiyan state when he first appears, if not superior.

To quickly debunk a claim, Future Trunks probably didn't gain much power, if any, from dying in the Cell Saga. Firstly, the Zenkais for post-Frieza Saga characters was way less powerful, which was demonstrated after Dende healed Potential Unlocked Gohan. Future Trunks wouldn't be an exception because he's been nearly killed by the Androids on many occasions. Secondly, there's actually no proof of Saiyans gaining power from death like Vegeta claims in the anime. That scene doesn't exist, and people are fully restored upon being revived.

Gero/Android 19​

Vegeta still had enough energy left to rip off 19's arms and one-shot him with a Big Bang attack, despite the latter having absorbed much of his energy. Logically, Super Saiyan Vegeta would have retained the majority of his power, as 19 would be adding Vegeta's energy to his own, but Piccolo still confirms that Gero would have been defeated him with ease. So Gero and therefore Piccolo are stronger than half of Vegeta's power level.

Additionally, the manga confirms that Gero is stronger than Android 19, who was greatly overpowered by a heavily weakened Super Saiyan Goku, but caused Super Saiyan Vegeta to bleed after absorbing the former's kamehameha and most of base Goku's remaining energy.

Basically, Gero and amped 19 should be Small Star level+. I'm not sure exactly how strong 19's base level should be, but I don't imagine it's incredibly below this as nobody except Piccolo really notices just how much Goku's energy had weakened.

Android Stuff​

Like I said, this thread isn't just about upgrades and downgrades, it's also about rescaling.

Piccolo confirms that Cell is far above the level of power the Androids used to overwhelm the Z-Fighters. Despite Android 17 later proving superior by scaling, this isn't an inconsistency because the Z-Fighters aren't capable of sensing the energy of Androids. At that point, Piccolo would only know that they completely eclipsed the Z-Fighters.

Super Vegeta < Casual Android 18 << Cell << 17 & Kamiccolo.

MSSJ Goku and Perfect Cell​

Tbh, I don't like the scaling we're using here. Perfect Cell should scale to Goku, not the other way.

Here's my idea.

Goku: Large Star level as a Full Power Super Saiyan (Half of his power terrified the Z-Fighters, who later confirmed that Goku far eclipsed all of them)

Perfect Cell: At least Large Star level (Far surpassed Super Saiyan Goku and Gohan without even using his full power)

I feel the only disadvantage to this would be that Perfect Cell falls very far behind his Super Perfect self, but I also don't see why this is too much of a problem. Super Saiyan 2 Gohan, who powered up in response to Cell's return, was initially inferior to Super Perfect Cell, but one-shot Weighted Perfect Cell while extremely casual and cracking a smile.

Gotenks/Buu Saga Piccolo​

Trunks and Goten shouldn't be Large Star level in their base forms, as they scale to Gohan and below Goku. Since Goten and Trunks would be downgraded to this level and Piccolo's power is completely unknown during this time, his Post-Time Chamber and Buu Saga keys should just become one.

Base Gotenks, who could only become a Super Saiyan after fusion due to his training in the Time Chamber, survived a fighting Good Buu. This is already on the profile, but I don't see much of a problem with him becoming Solar System level given that A) he grossly eclipses Super Saiyan Goten/Trunks, and B) Innocent Buu is well over 44x baseline.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

The SSJ 50x multiplier context has been elaborated in the OP yeah. So that already has my approval.

But as for the rest, Frieza's 1st form is actually more so 1.75 Tenatons as opposed to 1.6; that was the accepted blog. I do agree that all of Frieza's forms, 2nd, and 3rd are significantly stronger than the last, with 4rd zenkai Vegeta surpassing 3rd form but being significantly less than Base Zenkai Goku. But the problem is that the AP multipliers are harder to guess work and 2nd form being twice the 1st form and 3rd form being double 2nd are Anime exclusive statements. There are official PL's in Daizenshuu, but there's still a lot of conflictions.

And I was also planning make a thread determining when we should apply AP jumps between Low 4-C+, 4-C, High 4-C and so on, but I suppose that's part of this topic. But if we're going to go back to comparing Frieza's 1st 3 forms, that could lead to even more upgrades yeah.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

initially inferior to Super Perfect Cell

I do not agree with the notion that he was inferior to Cell. Gohan jumped in the way of the attack to protect Vegeta, so he was not actively trying to fight back against the blast. His shocked expression when he is struck also suggests that he was caught off-guard by its weight.

You could also argue that he was in the mindset that "If I powered up to my maximum, I would harm the planet", like he was during their beam struggle, but ehhh, I don't have enough evidence to back that up.

But yeah, Super Perfect Cell being able to even graze Gohan is enough to place him above his Powerweighted form.

I agree with everything else, too.

 

[ByAsura]

But as for the rest, Frieza's 1st form is actually more so 1.75 Tenatons as opposed to 1.6; that was the accepted blog.

That means 87.5 tenatons, then.

I do agree that all of Frieza's forms, 2nd, and 3rd are significantly stronger than the last, with 4rd zenkai Vegeta surpassing 3rd form but being significantly less than Base Zenkai Goku. But the problem is that the AP multipliers are harder to guess work and 2nd form being twice the 1st form and 3rd form being double 2nd are Anime exclusive statements. There are official PL's in Daizenshuu, but there's still a lot of conflictions.

I'm not really stacking multipliers or using these figures, which could probably be used to get Super Saiyan Goku to Large Star level, just illustrating that the gap between even First Form Frieza and his supernova prevents reasonable avenues for some upscaling (not even upscaling, tbh, as I'm not directly placing them into different tiers).

Ok on the Daizenshuu stuff.

I do not agree with the notion that he was inferior to Cell. Gohan jumped in the way of the attack to protect Vegeta, so he was not actively trying to fight back against the blast. His shocked expression when he is struck also suggests that he was caught off-guard by its weight.

Gohan was at least caught off guard a little, but nothing suggests his durability had been weakened by him not bracing himself like Goku when he fought Frieza.

I can definitely see your point here, though. Maybe superior isn't the right word.

You could also argue that he was in the mindset that "If I powered up to my maximum, I would harm the planet", like he was during their beam struggle, but ehhh, I don't have enough evidence to back that up.

My point is more that he's above the Gohan who curbstomped Perfect Cell. Massive beam struggles are a little different because they're actively pumping more energy into blasts than they do into usual combat, such as what he'd used against Weighted Cell.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Fair enough on the 2nd and 3rd form Frieza stuff, but I covered that in the form of adding more arrows to the already big line of arrows. Though scans next to each statements is always helpful; I sadly had to remove scans due to them using Manga reader URLs, but if all those images of every important statement was in an Imgur or Gyazo Album it be a different story.

 

[ByAsura]

I've always been meaning to get an account, tbh.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

I just wanted to say the current statistic blog sir medeus made is bad and outdated, half of the stuff it's saying is not even on the profiles, the whole android saga to buu saga section of Z needs to be revised, so this nice. I might comment on some stuff later, but this is a beefy as post so there is a lot of stuff to cover.

 

[RisingIons]

If fusion is at least A+B * at least 20, and base Gotenks is far above SPC, doesn't that make both Trunks and Goten 4-B?

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

If fusion is at least A+B * at least 20, and base Gotenks is far above SPC, doesn't that make both Trunks and Goten 4-B?

It's better to use scaling than that multiplier as it's not that consistent.

 

[RisingIons]

When has it been inconsistent since Vados mentioned it in the ToP, and it was mentioned again in Broly?

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

When has it been inconsistent since Vados mentioned it in the ToP, and it was mentioned again in Broly?

I'm not saying that multiplier itself is wrong, I'm saying that it's power increase is inconsistent, like you say it's at least 20x but it can be far higher or lower, it's better to just use scaling as it might contradict things.

 

[RisingIons]

I'm not saying that multiplier itself is wrong, I'm saying that it's power increase is inconsistent, like you say it's at least 20x but it can be far higher or lower, it's better to just use scaling as it might contradict things.

It can't be lower because it says tens of times, plural is 2 at least. Nothing has contradicted its power either.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

It can't be lower because it says tens of times, plural is 2 at least. Nothing has contradicted its power either.

Alright, if we take say goten and trunks who are both star level in base, and use A + B x 20, base Gotenks would still be star level in base, but he is actually scaled to solar system in base for scaling above SSJ3 Goku... you see where I'm coming from? We'd be downplaying here if we use that when we could use scaling instead.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

That would also make Gohan in the Cell Games 4-B, since Goten and Trunks scale directly to him.

 

[Ehnkr2beboh]

Most of this seems fine to me. Don't have much to add, but I do have a few scans from El Manga Legendario confirming Vegeta was relative to, if not above Goku at the start of the Android Saga.

Spoiler: Scans mentioned above

As a Super Saiyan, Vegeta acquired a strength similar to that of Goku in the same state. However, with its hard training achieved a level higher. That was due to the genius of the Saiyan as a warrior and his spirit born fighter.

Vegeta, Goku's great and eternal rival, finally appears as a supersaiyan during his fight against A-19. As he had been outclassed by Goku and Trunks, his transformation restores his pride. In addition to his illness, Goku did not have it all his own way in his fight against A-19. It was Vegeta who quickly resolved the situation with his lethal technique, the Big Bang Attack. From the beginning, Vegeta had always stood out among the Saiyans for his coolness and intelligence. By the time he was able to become a super Saiyan, he would likely surpass Goku in fighting strength. Even Piccolo went so far as to say that Vegeta had surpassed Goku. Had he finished off A-20, the Saiyan would have possibly become the next rival to beat for Piccolo and the rest of the fighters.

[/ISPOILER]
I also might have a scan for Grade 3 Cell < SPC (something like SPC being stronger than ever before), but I'm not sure where it's at.

 

[RisingIons]

Alright, if we take say goten and trunks who are both star level in base, and use A + B x 20, base Gotenks would still be star level in base, but he is actually scaled to solar system in base for scaling above SSJ3 Goku... you see where I'm coming from? We'd be downplaying here if we use that when we could use scaling instead.

Super Buu absorbed Fat Buu (after being proven to be weaker than Evil Buu) who's 44x above baseline (not sure where this comes from but ok), and is comparable to Gotenks in SS3 where SS1 is 50x base, and base Gotenks could already survive a beating from Fat Buu before training who absolutely annihilates SS2 tier characters, like Majin Vegeta who is >= SS2 Goku who he said was stronger than Gohan against Cell, who is 46+ times baseline 4-B. So pre-training no, post-training highly likely. Piccolo said Gotenks's power was completely different from before, and Gotenks expected to floor Buu with an assault, based on his experience from fighting Fat Buu since he never actually fought Super Buu.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Super Buu absorbed Fat Buu (after being proven to be weaker than Evil Buu) who's 44x above baseline (not sure where this comes from but ok), and is comparable to Gotenks in SS3 where SS1 is 50x base, and base Gotenks could already survive a beating from Fat Buu before training who absolutely annihilates SS2 tier characters, like Majin Vegeta who is >= SS2 Goku who he said was stronger than Gohan against Cell, who was baseline 4-B. So pre-training no, post-training highly likely. Piccolo said Gotenks's power was completely different from before, and Gotenks expected to floor Buu with an assault, based on his experience from fighting Fat Buu since he never actually fought Super Buu.

Yeah pretty accurate, let me point somethings out, DBZ reaches solar system level with SPC (cell), base gotenks got stomped by majin buu before the ROSAT, so you can scale him with the multiplier, as a SSJ, he's even stronger and is stated to surpass SSJ3 Goku who scales like this SPC << SSJ2 Gohan (he's not baseline) < SSJ2 vegeta < SSJ2 Goku/majin vegeta <<< fat buu << SSJ3 Goku. but post ROSAT, in base he's even stronger than he was as a SSJ before like you showed, and can amp all the way to SSJ3, so SPC << SSJ2 Gohan (he's not baseline) < SSJ2 vegeta < SSJ2 Goku/majin vegeta <<< fat buu << SSJ3 Goku < SSJ Gotenks < base gotenks post ROSAT <<< SSJ <<< super Buu < SSJ3 gotenks.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

I agree with this CRT

MSSJ Goku and Perfect Cell​

Tbh, I don't like the scaling we're using here. Perfect Cell should scale to Goku, not the other way.

Here's my idea.

Goku: Large Star level as a Full Power Super Saiyan (Half of his power terrified the Z-Fighters, who later confirmed that Goku far eclipsed all of them)

Perfect Cell: At least Large Star level (Far surpassed Super Saiyan Goku and Gohan without even using his full power)

I feel the only disadvantage to this would be that Perfect Cell falls very far behind his Super Perfect self, but I also don't see why this is too much of a problem. Super Saiyan 2 Gohan, who powered up in response to Cell's return, was initially inferior to Super Perfect Cell, but one-shot Weighted Perfect Cell while extremely casual and cracking a smile.

All of these scans about Goku's power could also be used to show how SSJ Gohan was much stronger than Goku, since not only Gohan was not impressed after sensing Goku's power, but he also was in disbelief as to why it was that much lower compared to his power

Android Stuff​

Like I said, this thread isn't just about upgrades and downgrades, it's also about rescaling.

Piccolo confirms that Cell is far above the level of power the Androids used to overwhelm the Z-Fighters. Despite Android 17 later proving superior by scaling, this isn't an inconsistency because the Z-Fighters aren't capable of sensing the energy of Androids. At that point, Piccolo would only know that they completely eclipsed the Z-Fighters.

Vegeta was fighting Android 18 relatively decently at first, but he quickly lost after his stamina dropped. Piccolo also noted Android 18 was specifically stalling Vegeta and tiring him before she went for the attack

 

[RisingIons]

Yeah pretty accurate, let me point somethings out, DBZ reaches solar system level with SPC (cell), base gotenks got stomped by majin buu before the ROSAT, so you can scale him with the multiplier, as a SSJ, he's even stronger and is stated to surpass SSJ3 Goku who scales like this SPC << SSJ2 Gohan (he's not baseline) < SSJ2 vegeta < SSJ2 Goku/majin vegeta <<< fat buu << SSJ3 Goku. but post ROSAT, in base he's even stronger than he was as a SSJ before like you showed, and can amp all the way to SSJ3, so SPC << SSJ2 Gohan (he's not baseline) < SSJ2 vegeta < SSJ2 Goku/majin vegeta <<< fat buu << SSJ3 Goku < SSJ Gotenks < base gotenks post ROSAT <<< SSJ <<< super Buu < SSJ3 gotenks.

Yeah I edited it, Cell is 46.x times baseline meaning Goku and Vegeta were likely at least 50x 4-B and base Gotenks >>>>>>>>>>>> them, making base Gotenks at a minimum 50x baseline pre-training. Unless I have bad scans, Gotenks rejected Piccolo's idea of trying fusion as super saiyans and stated base was enough for Buu, only to fly off and fly back insta-destroyed in the next page. They tried fusion as super saiyans but time ran out before they could actually fight.

So something like that.

 

[Vizer04]

If fusion is at least A+B * at least 20, and base Gotenks is far above SPC, doesn't that make both Trunks and Goten 4-B?

Yes.

 

[ByAsura]

If fusion is at least A+B * at least 20, and base Gotenks is far above SPC, doesn't that make both Trunks and Goten 4-B?

That's for Potara fusion. Plus, it was established in Dragon Ball Super, even in an episode where a base fusion goes on to overwhelm a Super Saiyan God.

Vegeta was fighting Android 18 relatively decently at first, but he quickly lost after his stamina dropped. Piccolo also noted Android 18 was specifically stalling Vegeta and tiring him before she went for the attack

I agree, but the Z-Fighters always mention that they were inferior in power. They knew the androids were simply toying with them.

Yeah I edited it, Cell is 46.x times baseline meaning Goku and Vegeta were likely at least 50x 4-B and base Gotenks >>>>>>>>>>>> them, making base Gotenks at a minimum 50x baseline pre-training. Unless I have bad scans, Gotenks rejected Piccolo's idea of trying fusion as super saiyans and stated base was enough for Buu, only to fly off and fly back insta-destroyed in the next page. They tried fusion as super saiyans but time ran out before they could actually fight.

They didn't try to go Super Saiyan at all, they just got defeated because they didn't go Super Saiyan. This is established the first time he actually does go Super Saiyan, and when he goes Super Saiyan after fusing in the HTC. The fact that everyone who has ki sensing was surprised when he went Super Saiyan suggests Gotenks only tried to beat up Buu in base and failed.

Nothing suggests he's superior to Super Saiyan 2s. Vegeta survived a massive beatdown from Buu, he just didn't flee and chose to self-destruct because nobody was capable of matching him (aside from SS3, of course, but Vegeta didn't know that).

Most of this seems fine to me. Don't have much to add, but I do have a few scans from El Manga Legendario confirming Vegeta was relative to, if not above Goku at the start of the Android Saga.

Thanks.

 

[RisingIons]

The fact that everyone who has ki sensing was surprised when he went Super Saiyan suggests Gotenks didn't. He just tried to beat up Buu in base.

Where does it say he couldn't go super saiyan? Piccolo had them fuse as super saiyans to make a super saiyan fusion, nothing suggests they can't simply turn SSJ after fusing when they both can do it individually. Like Gotenks said, the need to transform was viewed as Piccolo underestimating him.

 

[ByAsura]

I'm not saying he can't, I'm saying he didn't even try to transform against Buu. Your scan there outright proves this.

Edit: I meant to say "didn't", not "couldn't".

Although, I strongly doubt he was actually capable of transforming into Super Saiyan at the time given what happened in the HTC.

 

[ByAsura]

Yes.

If it multiplies their power, then that wouldn't work.

For example, if Goten and Trunks tripled their power, Gotenks could be 9x stronger.

With these revisions, we won't even know exactly how powerful they are.

 

[RisingIons]

Gotenks > SS2 Vegeta > Cell, then even if Gotenks scaled directly equal to Cell, dividing by at least 20 (addition doesn't matter at these levels) makes Goten and Trunks at least 2.3x baseline 4-B if you reverse the math, which would still make them 4-B and still far weaker than Gohan and Cell individually.

If we assume Gotenks got roughly 50x stronger in base, they're then over 100x baseline individually.

 

[ByAsura]

I don't really get why you're assuming he's stronger than Cell. All he did was not die against Buu. Even Dabura was doing that until he got turned into candy.

If each component was 50x stronger, Gotenks would be 100x stronger than each of them because there's two people. That's also assuming the fusion additive, which isn't ever proven and just doesn't make sense.

 

[RisingIons]

Buu stomped Dabura, who had no difficulty with SS2 Gohan who was not as strong as he was against Cell. I wouldn't go as far as to say he fell below baseline, because that suggests Gohan got almost 50 times weaker. SS2 Vegeta believed he could beat Buu when he first felt his power, and SS2 Gohan believed if he could use all of his power that he would be able to beat Buu, which makes it clear that he's an SPC tier threat at his resting power, and this was all before they felt Buu's ki spike against Dabura, which made Gohan believe he was an impossible opponent and Vegeta question if he'd live after fighting him. Gohan got one-shot and Vegeta fruitlessly killed himself.

Gotenks got beat up badly and managed to get away, and based on feeling Buu's power before he believed he would be able to do damage after training.

 

[ByAsura]

Despite holding the advantage, Dabura had plenty of difficulty power-wise (as in they're similar in strength, but Dabura's magic gives him the advantage), and both Goku and Gohan believed he could beat him with his Cell Saga levels of power.

Currently, we rate Dabura as Large Star level+. I disagree with this myself, but you'll have to make a CRT for it to change.

Gohan wasn't actually able to release his Cell Saga power levels and just released an enormous energy blast against Buu's cocoon.

Again, Vegeta killed himself via self-destruction because nobody else could match Buu. This doesn't suggest he's weaker than Gotenks, who got clapped so effortlessly that it wasn't even shown in the manga.

After training doesn't matter, we're talking about pre-training.

 

[Mr.Cinos15]

This is isn't something that you brought up, but I wanted to hear your thoughts on it. I said this a little while ago.

"One thing that came to mind right now is the possibility of Kikoho scaling to Tier 4 during the Android/Cell Saga. This doesn't involve scaling to Cell as it didn't do any actual damage to Cell iirc, but it does involve him. It comes from the fact that it had a greater effect on Cell than Piccolo's Light Grenade did. Imperfect Cell took Piccolo's full power Light Grenade and it had no effect on him, while Semi-Perfect Cell was being pinned down and pushed back by Tien's Kikoho and couldn't escape it. So Tiens Kikoho would have to have had more power and force to it than Piccolo's Light Grenade (I think).

This isn't part of the revision, but it came to mind."

 

[ByAsura]

Cell was underwater, so the light grenade did at least move him. We can't really tell what effect it'd have because the light grenade is one massive attack, while Tien used multiple blasts.

 

[Mr.Cinos15]

Fair enough.

 

[RisingIons]

Again, Vegeta killed himself via self-destruction because nobody else could match Buu. This doesn't suggest he's weaker than Gotenks, who got clapped so effortlessly that it wasn't even shown in the manga.

lmao

Despite holding the advantage, Dabura had plenty of difficulty power-wise (as in they're similar in strength, but Dabura's magic gives him the advantage), and both Goku and Gohan believed he could beat him with his Cell Saga levels of power.

Currently, we rate Dabura as Large Star level+. I disagree with this, but you'll have to make a CRT for it to change.

Gohan wasn't actually able to release his Cell Saga power levels and just released an enormous energy blast against Buu's cocoon.

Again, Vegeta killed himself via self-destruction because nobody else could match Buu. This doesn't suggest he's weaker than Gotenks, who got clapped so effortlessly that it wasn't even shown in the manga.

After training doesn't matter, we're talking about pre-training.

I wouldn't say Dabura had difficulty at all. He did hold the advantage, and Gohan did nothing significant to him other than breaking his sword. Vegeta was impatient with Gohan because he wasn't as strong as he was when he was a kid, and Goku said "its not like he's losing", but he certainly wasn't winning.

I never said Gohan was able to release Cell saga power. He said if he could release his power, the same as the one he used against Cell, they might have a chance. And this was before he felt buu's ki spike which one-shot him. Majin Vegeta claims Buu's power is nothing (again before it spikes) and claims Goku and himself have gotten stronger, a call back to when he said Goku was stronger than Gohan when he fought Cell. Piccolo observes Vegeta is as strong as SPC, if not stronger.

Though Gohan did get noticeably weaker than since he was a kid, again its very unlikely he moved very far from the level he used to be at, as everyone believed if he simply got as angry as he did back then, he could reclaim that power.

Pre-training Gotenks has no feats other than taking hits from Buu and managing to live.

 

[ByAsura]

I'm not claiming he's winning, just that they're around the same overall level in terms of physicals.

I'm not saying you did, but I can understand your confusion. Sorry I wasn't more clear here. I brought up that point to show that Gohan had lost quite a bit of energy by pumping all his power into a blast and didn't regain it with a rage amp. So, it's likely that he was somewhat weakened when Buu one-shot him, though not to the same level as someone like Nail after he healed or Goku with the Instant Transmission Kamehameha.

I don't believe it's something like 46x either, but you'll have to make a CRT. Originally, I was going to add that to this one, but there's a few inconsistencies.

Ok, and?

 

[RisingIons]

I don't believe it's something like 46x either, but you'll have to make a CRT. Originally, I was going to add that to this one, but there's a few inconsistencies.

Ok, and?

You said we're talking about pre not post training now you're saying ok and?

What's not 46x? That number refers to Cell's AP calculated.

 

[ByAsura]

I mean what's your point? I just don't get how that matters to him surpassing Gohan.

I'm saying I'm on your side that Buu Saga Gohan probably isn't more than 46x weaker than the power he used in the Cell Saga.

 

[RisingIons]

Because Vegeta and Gotenks could both take blows and blasts from Buu whereas Gohan got one-shot instantly. Vegeta scales to Goku who was putting his faith in Gotenks being able to beat Buu with fusion despite the boys never fusing before.

 

[ByAsura]

And again, Gohan had just used up quite a bit of energy. Dabura, on the other hand, could take his blows without dying (but not an extended beating like Gotenks).

Which he can do as a Super Saiyan. It's not a very strong point.

 

[RisingIons]

Vegeta got beat up and nuked by Buu from full health after using a powerful ki blast as well and he was still fine enough to launch a final assault. Not understanding what your second point is.

 

[ByAsura]

That's both irrelevant and kind of untrue, because Vegeta had expended quite a bit of energy from fighting Goku (although he was still above Super Perfect Cell).

Edit: Actually, are you saying that Vegeta did or didn't withstand it? It's kind of hard to tell what you mean.

I'm saying Goku's beliefs on Gotenks' power don't matter, in this case.

 

[Kin201]

That's both irrelevant and kind of untrue, because Vegeta had expended quite a bit of energy from fighting Goku (although he was still above Super Perfect Cell).

Actually, Vegeta was fully healthy when fighting Buu. He stole and ate a senzu bean from Goku before the fight.