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Dragon Ball - Buu Saga Tier 3 Proposal

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Gilad_Hyperstar said:
No, the Beerus of the past is still the GoD of U7, and again, a mortal surpassing a God is extremely rare. In fact, in places such as U11, even a being as powerful as Toppo is not ready to replace Belmod as the new GoD. Besides, Moro existed even before Buu have attacked, and Moro was even more powerful than him, yet Beerus would be so weak even the Supreme Kai surpass him??? That's laughable, since if he'd really be that much weaker than he wouldn't have even be able to seal the Old Kai

Do you have a proof for that??? Buu isn't a god like the kais or Beerus. Buu is a creature that existed for a very long time, but nothing in the manga says he lives forever
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Majin Buu has a quote from the creator of existing since the earliest times, I remember seeing a mention of Majin Buu being considered a demon
 
Nullflowerblush said:
If the Saikyō Jump interview is to be taken as fact, then the Elder Kai was, evidently, taking out of his ass, which seems likely considering his brash, abrasive, and borderline senile behavior. The Elder Kai claimed that Beerus sealed him away because he was afraid of his Unlock Ability, whereas Toriyama stated that Beerus sealed the Elder Kai away out of frustration over a petty argument. The two are conflicting accounts, and if a younger Beerus is accepted as 3-B, then the things Elder Kai said have to be accepted as unreliable narration.

Also, in the Viz translation, the Elder Kai uses the word "terrible", and according to Herms, the original Japanese text uses "strong and [bad]", which could imply Buu is more powerful than Beerus, but could also imply that Buu was considered a greater threat than Beerus. Considering Kid Buu is notoriously deemed the "most dangerous" incarnation of Majin Buu, devoid of rational thought and hell-bent on senseless destruction, this is not completely out of the question.

"Naturally, it wouldn’t have been proper for him to destroy the Kaiōshin Realm itself" could either refer to, in-universe, Beerus having the power to destroy the Realm of the Kai at the time and choosing against that, or, out-of-universe, Toriyama choosing an action for Beerus to take that was less extreme and less impactful on the greater universe. The former is the likelier answer, but...

Since when was Goku a reliable narrator on cosmology?
Also, "fate of the universe" or "fate of the galaxy"?

Seems flowery and is also largely unsubstantiated.

Vegeta explicitly requested to receive energy from Earth exclusively.

Does not backscale to the Z pages.
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first part, The argument they had could’ve been about elder Kai’s special power which would make sense and leave no contradictions, leading to the same events. Instead of instantly discrediting things simply bc they don’t line up at first glance, try actually putting together to the pieces to make it connect. Idk why the possible of that never occurred to you and you just instantly assumed elder kai is wrong.

Also just in case you try to say this “the argument was trifling so it was unimportant and elder kai ability is important” okay cool, there’s no proof his ability actually had a lot of importance and the ability could’ve simply had little value outside of their argument and only be important to the two of them. Making it overall, a argument about something trifling.

“It was important bc beerus was afraid”
First, you can’t substantiate that at all, that’s really all there to it. The second refutation I used “and the ability could’ve simply had little value outside of their argument and only be important to the two of them. Making it overall, a argument about something trifling.” Can be applied here as well, just replace elder Kai’s ability with beerus fear.

for the second part about beerus destroying the KAIOSHIN realm, you don’t even give a real counter argument to that, you just “here are two possibilities” which is interesting since suddenly now he can see other possibilities when you couldn’t in the first part but besides that, you never outright pick a side nor argue for why one of the possibilities is more likely than the other, nothing to refute here.

“Since when was goku blah blah blah” goku isn’t going off his own knowledge like you assumed I’m pretty sure. He’s going off the knowledge he heard from the Kai’s, the people who actually has validity in this situation. Goku has been told multiple different versions of buu can destroy the universe or was destroying the universe and he simply assumed the same for kid buu. Also he sensed fat buu and piccolo stated shin was right about buu and universe was going to be killed, goku could obviously sense kid buu, who’s above fat buu so he can simply put 2 and 2 together.


You thinking it’s “flowery language” does not disprove anything 💀

Vegeta request doesn’t disprove anything, read the manga, Enma confirms Goku also took energy from the afterlife, disproving that it’s only from earth like you think.


Edit: another thing I came up with was the argument elder kai and beerus literally could’ve been about if beerus was scared or nah and bro got mad in the end
 
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Toby020 said:
yes he was, in fact any large scale Ki attack should be enough to obliterate a galaxy, even though he is weak lol
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We don't know how strong Beerus was 75 million years ago. We can't just assume he was 3-B without any proof.
 
Saintdhqhdy said:
first part, The argument they had could’ve been about elder Kai’s special power which would make sense and leave no contradictions, leading to the same events. Instead of instantly discrediting things simply bc they don’t line up at first glance, try actually putting together to the pieces to make it connect. Idk why the possible of that never occurred to you and you just instantly assumed elder kai is wrong.

Also just in case you try to say this “the argument was trifling so it was unimportant and elder kai ability is important” okay cool, there’s no proof his ability actually had a lot of importance and the ability could’ve simply had little value outside of their argument and only be important to the two of them. Making it overall, a argument about something trifling.

“It was important bc beerus was afraid”
First, you can’t substantiate that at all, that’s really all there to it. The second refutation I used “and the ability could’ve simply had little value outside of their argument and only be important to the two of them. Making it overall, a argument about something trifling.” Can be applied here as well, just replace elder Kai’s ability with beerus fear.

for the second part about beerus destroying the KAIOSHIN realm, you don’t even give a real counter argument to that, you just “here are two possibilities” which is interesting since suddenly now he can see other possibilities when you couldn’t in the first part but besides that, you never outright pick a side nor argue for why one of the possibilities is more likely than the other, nothing to refute here.

“Since when was goku blah blah blah” goku isn’t going off his own knowledge like you assumed I’m pretty sure. He’s going off the knowledge he heard from the Kai’s, the people who actually has validity in this situation. Goku has been told multiple different versions of buu can destroy the universe or was destroying the universe and he simply assumed the same for kid buu. Also he sensed fat buu and piccolo stated shin was right about buu and universe was going to be killed, goku could obviously sense kid buu, who’s above fat buu so he can simply put 2 and 2 together.


You thinking it’s “flowery language” does not disprove anything 💀

Vegeta request doesn’t disprove anything, read the manga, Enma confirms Goku also took energy from the afterlife, disproving that it’s only from earth like you think.
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good friend
 
Toby020 said:
We comma, because I know exactly, explained in the manga and by Akira toriyama's lines.
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That part was retconned by Beerus showing up. We have no reason to assume Beerus was weaker than beings who only started controlling god ki such as Goku or Vegeta even if it was 75 million years ago. Besides, Beerus barely trains if at all, as the one trait he's known for is his extreme laziness
 
Gilad_Hyperstar said:
So? How does that relate to my argument? Still not immortal, still not a god
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Are gods immortal? I never mentioned that Majin Buu is immortal, the only immortal Gods in Dragon Ball are the angels, the rest are mortals trained to become a God of Destruction.
 
Vizer04 said:
How? We don't have proof of Young Beerus being 3-B.
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Any GoD who has full mastery over God Ki, let alone hakai energy, should be no weaker than Goku and Vegeta in RoF who were barely able to control it at first yet Goku was already far surpassing Buu at that point
 
Toby020 said:
Are gods immortal? I never mentioned that Majin Buu is immortal, the only immortal Gods in Dragon Ball are the angels, the rest are mortals trained to become a God of Destruction.
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Still doesn't matter. Buu isn't a god and isn't immortal. A situation where a GoD is weaker than a mortal in their universe is extremely rare, so much so, that despite being a GoD for 75+ million years, Beerus was shocked to find out that Jiren is stronger than his GoD, meaning this isn't a thing Beerus even thought was possible
 
Gilad_Hyperstar said:
Any GoD who has full mastery over God Ki, let alone hakai energy, should be no weaker than Goku and Vegeta in RoF who were barely able to control it at first yet Goku was already far surpassing Buu at that point
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So you're saying Kid Buu is 3-A then? Because that's just ridiculous.
 
Gilad_Hyperstar said:
That part was retconned by Beerus showing up. We have no reason to assume Beerus was weaker than beings who only started controlling god ki such as Goku or Vegeta even if it was 75 million years ago. Besides, Beerus barely trains if at all, as the one trait he's known for is his extreme laziness
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actually there is, but it's a fact that you don't want to accept, I humbly respect your opinion, but it's explicit in the work, beerus was inferior to Majin Buu and Akira toriyama's own speech, but if you want to go against Akira, who am I to argue, right? I think we now have a replacement for Akira toriyama himself lol

Anyway, this debate is tiring and exhausting, I apologize for anything, but now we have to wake up to our reality that Majin Buu is not just a solar system, but Multi-Galaxies.
 
Toby020 said:
actually there is, but it's a fact that you don't want to accept, I humbly respect your opinion, but it's explicit in the work, beerus was inferior to Majin Buu and Akira toriyama's own speech, but if you want to go against Akira, who am I to argue, right? I think we now have a replacement for Akira toriyama himself lol
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Akira Toriyama also said SSJ is a 10 times multiplier. Want to believe that too?
 
Vizer04 said:
Oh ok, i'm arguing under the basis of Buu being > Beerus
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Yeah I'll never agree to Kid Buu being > Beerus. I don't think it's good to judge things based of a single statements made years before Beerus was even concieved, and especially when what we see afterwards contradicts his statement entirely
 
Gilad_Hyperstar said:
Yeah I'll never agree to Buu being > Beerus. I don't think it's good to judge things based of a single statements made years before Beerus was even concieved, and especially when what we see afterwards contradicts his statement entirely
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I know and i agree. I just based my argument on "if Buu was indeed stronger than Beerus" and why even that wouldn't guarantee a rating higher than 4-B.
 
So, @Toby020 is saying that Buu should be 3-B by scaling above a Young Beerus who is supposedly 3-B for being able to supposedly "destroy the entire Kaioshin Realm".

The thing is, we don't know how Beerus would exactly destroy the Kaioshin Realm. He could do it with his own AP or via Hakai. If it's the second option, then Buu wouldn't scale to the feat since Hakai is a technique exclusive to the GoDs and GoD Candidates.
 
Gilad_Hyperstar said:
Yeah I'll never agree to Kid Buu being > Beerus. I don't think it's good to judge things based of a single statements made years before Beerus was even concieved, and especially when what we see afterwards contradicts his statement entirely
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ok, I already understand where this is going and it will not rent any.
 
Vizer04 said:
So, @Toby020 is saying that Buu should be 3-B by scaling above a Young Beerus who is supposedly 3-B for being able to supposedly "destroy the entire Kaioshin Realm".

The thing is, we don't know how Beerus would destroy the Kaioshin Realm. He could do it with his own AP or via Hakai. If it's the second option, then Buu wouldn't scale to the feat since Hakai is a technique exclusive to the GoDs and GoD Candidates.
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We actually know yes, did it get to the point where you have to make up an excuse about the hakai? Really bro?

And even if it was with his hakai it would be with his energy, and Majin Buu is higher so we should put him 3-B, it's that simple lol
 
Saintdhqhdy said:
Instead of instantly discrediting things simply bc they don’t line up at first glance, try actually putting together to the pieces to make it connect.
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I don't feel like it.

Beerus being afraid of Elder Kai being capable of drawing out one's potential isn't even in-character for Beerus, considering he took a trip around the universe searching for a singular dude that appeared in his dream under the belief that he'd find a warrior with strength matching his.
Saintdhqhdy said:
the KAIOSHIN realm
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lel.
Saintdhqhdy said:
“Since when was goku blah blah blah” goku isn’t going off his own knowledge like you assumed I’m pretty sure. He’s going off the knowledge he heard from the Kai’s, the people who actually has validity in this situation.
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The "Before any more planets get destroyed" Kai?
"Death of the universe" Kai?
Saintdhqhdy said:
Vegeta request doesn’t disprove anything, read the manga, Enma confirms Goku also took energy from the afterlife, disproving that it’s only from earth like you think.
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Yemma is a big guy, but the entire universe?

Is this what peak rhetoric and argumentation looks like?
 
Gilad_Hyperstar said:
Yeah Kid Buu definitely don't posess god ki (or at least never used it, likely cause it never knew how to) for the simple fact he could be sensed. God ki cannot be sensed and it'd be instantly noticable if that would happen
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Can you show me a scan of Kid Buu being sensed in the manga? Not that I completely doubt it, I just don't remember a scene in particular
 
Gilad_Hyperstar said:
No, the Beerus of the past is still the GoD of U7, and again, a mortal surpassing a God is extremely rare. In fact, in places such as U11, even a being as powerful as Toppo is not ready to replace Belmod as the new GoD. Besides, Moro existed even before Buu have attacked, and Moro was even more powerful than him, yet Beerus would be so weak even the Supreme Kai surpass him??? That's laughable, since if he'd really be that much weaker than he wouldn't have even be able to seal the Old Kai
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Peeps forget about how this line is retconned and brings the headcanon that Beerus was week eons ago.
 
Toby020 said:
We actually know yes, did it get to the point where you have to make up an excuse about the hakai? Really bro?

And even if it was with his hakai it would be with his energy, and Majin Buu is higher so we should put him 3-B, it's that simple lol
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I think that’s quite reasonable actually. Hakai is the signature move of destroyer entities. Beerus is such an entity. Hakai is an in character move that destroys things, and thus it would make a lot of sense if the guy who often Uses hakai to destroy... uses hakai to destroy. It’s not like we are saying someone like goku is gonna hakai something about of existence, we are talking about destroyer gods.

and even then, scaling hakai to its users doesn’t make sense. It’s not like it’s a technique that hits so hard that souls and matter are destroyed. It’s not an ap based attack. It just has the property of destroying things because it does.
 
Nullflowerblush said:
Here.
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They will probably argue that this is pre-retcon, like Goku tracking Dende's ki who is a deity. But here are at Chapter 66 of DBS, Dai Kaioshin sends Divine Ki to the Genki Dama, and dende explains that this divine Ki isn't from Majin Boo, but from the Dai Kaioshin. So even if anyone finds Majin Boo's Ki not being able to be traced, it's just them not feeling thanks to Dai Kaioshin's Divine Ki.
 
Alonik said:
They will probably argue that this is pre-retcon, like Goku tracking Dende's ki who is a deity. But here are at Chapter 66 of DBS, Dai Kaioshin sends Divine Ki to the Genki Dama, and dende explains that this divine Ki isn't from Majin Boo, but from the Dai Kaioshin. So even if anyone finds Majin Boo's Ki not being able to be traced, it's just them not feeling thanks to Dai Kaioshin's Divine Ki.
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Dai Kaioshin who was absorbed by Kid Buu, his evil part got the powers of divinity, shown in the scan in the topic I mentioned
 
Nullflowerblush said:
I don't feel like it.

Beerus being afraid of Elder Kai being capable of drawing out one's potential isn't even in-character for Beerus, considering he took a trip around the universe searching for a singular dude that appeared in his dream under the belief that he'd find a warrior with strength matching his.

lel.

The "Before any more planets get destroyed" Kai?
"Death of the universe" Kai?

Yemma is a big guy, but the entire universe?

Is this what peak rhetoric and argumentation looks like?
Click to expand...
cool, what reasoning is there to assume beerus from millions of years ago is the same now? This is disingenuous logic, this only works if you can prove beerus from the past is the same as he is in the present since your argument is kinda asserting that’s the case for it to work.

Buddy, why do you think I said destroying the universe or was destroying the universe? You gotta be trolling me LMAO, I context and narrative is, he’s destroying the universe, one way or another. BFR.

Yo show me when I mentioned the entire universe, I just disproved what you said, “it’s only coming from earth” if you want the universe shit, ask the op.

Idk if I beat you so badly last time, remember, when you got mad and insulted me? Yea idk if this is true but I think I unintentionally put it in your mind that I’m a top tier debate or sum, that is not the case. I’m just better than you LMFAO 🤣
 
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