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DS' page : https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Downstreamers
Revision from 'High 1-C' to 'At least High 1-B' for Pre-FVC Downstreamers
Apparently, I made a mistake when I was assigning High 1-C rating to their Pre-FVC form. High 1-C rating is based upon one of DS' feat of editing timeline of thousand universes, one which at least followed String Theory.
A quote describing what scientific cosmology 'Main' universe follows :
"It's a sketch of the foundations of a theory of quantum gravity, which is a unification, awaited for a century, of general relativity and quantum theory, the two great pillars of physics."
"I thought we had that. String theory."
"String theory is part of it. But string theory is mathematically dense - after thirty years the theorists have only extracted a handful of predictions from it - and it's limited besides; it doesn't incorporate curved
space in a natural way. And-"
Emma pushed the report away. "What does this have to do with us?"
He smiled. "Everything.
About editing timelines :
"I don't care how aug mented you are. You can't understand. If I hadn't screwed up her life, if I'd left her on Earth—"
Would you have wanted that?
"Yes.[...]"
Then make it so, Michael murmured.
"What?"
Michael held his hand. Malenfant, the universe has many values. There is no one single path. Do you understand? The future can't be determined. Nor can the past. Therefore we are free to choose. . .
Malenfant spoke slowly, carefully. "What you're telling me is that I could change the past. I could spare Emma." The thought electrified him. "But I'm no downstreamer."
You are now, said the Michael thing.
"Will I remember?"
Consciousness spans the manifold.
I don't know if I have the strength, he thought.
"She'll forget me. Won't she, Michael?"
I'm just a kid, he said. How would I know?
Your call, Malenfant. Keep her, or give her back her life.
"Do it," he whispered.
…
And the universe pivoted around him, the lines of possibility swirling, knitting new patterns of truth and dream, and he clutched at the boy.
Thousand universes beside this are universes that Emma visited with Malenfant. These universes are non-causally connected with each other. Modifying Emma's timeline means modifying events on these universes too. It means, modifying said multiversal trip would be causality alteration on multiversal scale.
But in the same novel, there's a feat which far overshadows that. Namely Downstreamers creating their original Level IV Mv from scratch :
"They are considering constraints on the ultimate manifold."
Maura suspected that she was going to struggle with the rest of this conversation. "The manifold of what?"
"Universes. It is of course a truism that all logically possible universes must exist. The universe, this universe, is described - umm, that's the wrong word - by a formal system. Mathematics. A system of mathematics."
Maura frowned. "You mean a Theory of Everything?"
Anna waved a hand, as if that were utterly trivial, and her beautiful wings rustled. "But there are many formal systems. Some of them are less rich, some more. But each formal system is logically consistent internally, describes a possible universe, which therefore exists."
Implication that Original Level IV Mv is artificially created
"We've been expecting stars," Emma said.
"We have?"
"Sure. Think about it. If the key to breeding universes is black holes, you need to come up with the best way there is of making black holes. Which is stars. "
"We're going to see more universes full of stars now. Universes that are star factories, and so black hole factories."
[...]
Maybe she was right.
If the key goal was to make lots of black holes — and if black holes were best made in giant stars — then you wanted machines to make lots of giant stars, and reef galaxies were the best way they had yet seen.
Black hole factories. Key goal was to make lots of black holes. You want machine to make lots of giant stars. Which is galaxy reef.
Key goal, machine, factories. This imply that these 'factories' are artificial. Created by Pre-FVC Downstreamers to make new universes in... The First Expansion.
This is probably just one of their method of creating universes
More about Pre-FVC DS making Level IV Mv from scratch :
"They made the manifold."
"Who did?"
"The Old Ones.
Manifold is referring to infinite number of universes.
Nemoto went on, "I understand some of what you say. Perhaps the manifold universes were nucleated from a single primal universe by some mechanism as quantum tunneling. Perhaps the nucleation of the universes was deliberate. Perhaps the Old Ones lived in the primal universe..."
'Single Primal Universe'. Before multiverse, there's only Primal Universe.
Revision about Speed for Pre-FVC Downstreamers : 'MFTL+ without assistance' or 'Infinite Speed'
But you are Malenfant.
"The same person I was before?"
Of course. Which other?
"But I can't be. That Malenfant blew himself to bits. I can believe the portal stored information about me, sent it to the far future, and here I am reconstructed in this—" He waved a hand. " — this virtual reality Bates motel. But I'm not me."
Michael looked puzzled. You are you. I am me. Information is the most important thing. There was a German called Leibniz.
"The philosopher? Never heard of him."
Entities that cannot be distinguished by any means whatsoever, even in principle, at any time in the past, present, and future have to be considered identical. This is called the Identity of Indiscernibles. It really is you, Malenfant, just as it feels.
About information (what Pre-FVC Downstreamers are made out of) and Leibniz's Law of Identity.
"Who did this, Michael? Who brought me back?" The downstreamers. The dreamers.
"What am I supposed to do?"
Whatever you want. You must only, umm, exist. The information that defines you was stored by the portal, and therefore is part of the substrate.
Malenfant frowned. "You're telling me I don't have some kind of mission? That the decadent beings of the far future don't need my primitive instincts to save them?"
More about 'Information' which Downstreamers are made out of.
About Downstreamers' 'physical form' which is light-year wide :
Even now, of course, there was something rather than nothing. Around her was an unimaginably thin plasma: free electrons and positrons decayed from the last of the Big Bang's hydrogen, orbiting in giant, slow circles. This cold soup was the last refuge of humanity. The others drifted past her like clouds, immense, slow, coded in wispy light-year-wide atoms.
And now finally, speed upgrade for Pre FVC Downstreamers. This passage is referring to Anlic, Downstreamers who went to Mine One in search for... something :
She sought out Mine One, the wreckage of man's original galaxy. The search took more empty ages. With caution, she approached what remained. There was no shape here. No form, no colour, no time, no order.
Kinda implies Infinite Speed.
And yet there was motion: a slow, insidious, endless writhing, punctuated by bubbles which rose and burst, spitting out fragments of mass-energy. This was the singularity that had once lurked within the great black-hole's event horizon. Now it was naked, a glaring knot of quantum foam, a place where the unification of spacetime had been ripped apart to become a seething probabilistic froth. Once this object had oscillated violently, and savage tides, chaotic and unpredictable, had torn at any traveller (sic) unwary enough to come close.
And her being somewhere close to naked singularity.
And now its Anlic manipulating naked singularity so a new Downstreamer could be born from out of said naked singularity :
It was a spark of consciousness: not descended from the grunting, breeding humans of the Afterglow, but from the random quantum flexing of a singularity. Just as she had been. Anlic waited, nurturing, refining the rootless being's order and cohesion. And it gathered more data, developed sophisticatio. At last it ― she ― could frame questions.
"...Who am I? Who are you? Why are there two and not one?"
Anlic said, "I have much to tell you." And she gathered the spark in her attenuated soul.
Together, mother and daughter drifted away, and the river of time ran slowly into an unmarked sea.
Hmm, manipulating naked singularity and being in close proximity of it. Probably MFTL+ Speed without assistance? Previousy it was MFTL+ but only for FTL Ship speed.
But there's that moving in 'no time, no shape, no form' space. Would that warrant Infinite Speed?
Justification for Downstreamers' Current 'Possibly Tier 1-A' rating
@Azathoth (Staff) had adressed how True form of Level IV Multiverse which is in many way similar to Tier 1-A realm isn't enough to warrant Tier 1-A rating in itself. Because it isn't beyond math.
Or maybe because Level IV Multiverse is weird like that.
Current explanation for Post-FVC DS' 1-A rating is based on this :
Well, about 'math not transcending dimensions'...
From wiki :
Mathematical Platonism is the form of realism that suggests that mathematical entities are abstract, have no spatiotemporal or causal properties, and are eternal and unchanging. This is often claimed to be the view most people have of numbers.
From Tegmark's paper :
A first subtlety in relating the two perspectives in-volves time. Recall that a mathematical structure is an abstract, immutable entity existing outside of space and time. If history were a movie, the structure would there-fore correspond not to a single frame of it but to the entire videotape.
The Mathematical Universe Hypothesis has a very philosophical nature to it. It can be considered a form of Platonism, the philosophy of Plato, who argued that certain abstract ideas have a real independent existence beyond our minds. Similarily, Tegmark's hypothesis argues that mathematical entities such as numbers exist independently of us ― these abstract entities are not merely imaginary; they exist as part of mind-independent reality.
In a sense, Tegmark's hypothesis goes well beyond Platonism, since Tegmark claims that ultimately only mathematical objects exist and nothing else does!
There's similarity to the concept 'our reality is illusion' and 'one true reality beyond mere physical existence'.... In other words, 'mathematical entities' are source of all things, including concept of dimensional structures itself.
In a way this is similar to Plato's belief that ordinary minds cannot perceive or even understand the true nature of things. The true nature of things, Plato claims, can be traced to what he calls Forms or Ideas, which are abstract, timeless, archetypal, non-physical entities. In order to go beyond the illusory appearance of things, we need to use reason to uncover their true nature, not visual or other perception. This, he argued, only those trained in philosophy could do.
Atemporal means that it does not exist within any time period, rather it provides the formal basis for time. It therefore formally grounds beginning, persisting and ending. It is neither eternal in the sense of existing forever, nor mortal, of limited duration. It exists transcendent to time altogether.
They aren't bound by time, rather, they could be said to be 'source' of time in the first place. And 'transcendent to time' altogether.
aspatial in that they have no spatial dimensions, and thus no orientation in space, nor do they even (like the point) have a location. They are non-physical, but they are not in the mind.
Mathematical entities, are literally 'beyond physical', you won't be able to find it even if you explore infinite dimensional structures hell and back. And 'not exist within mind', in other words, mere physical beings bound by dimensions simply can't comprehend them.
Similarily, Tegmark argues that there are two possible ways to view reality; from inside the mathematical structure, and from outside it. We view it from within it, and so see a physical reality which exists in time.
About 'seeing reality from the inside'. From the perspective of dimensional beings.
From the (purely hypothetical) external point of view, however, Tegmark thinks that there is only a mathematical structure which exists outside of time. Some might respond to this by saying that the idea of 'outside of time' and 'timelessness' is verging on the mystical.
yeah, even scientists think Tegmark's idea of Multiverse is rather too... 'Outerversal' for them, hehe.
And there's truly external point of view, transcending dimensions and time altogether...
Point is, there's an Over-World out there beyond the grasp of physicals, composed of mathematical entities which are responsible for the existence of physical reality. Physical reality itself would be mere illusion when compared to mathematical entities which comprises 'Ultimate Reality'. Or to put it in anothey way, what we call 'our reality', is just one 'expression' mathematical entities could take.
... such a view is seen to parallel Plato's Theory of Forms and a "World of Ideas" (Greek: eidos (╬Áß╝Â╬┤╬┐¤é)) described in Plato's allegory of the cave: the everyday world can only imperfectly approximate an unchanging, ultimate reality.
So yeah, that kinda guarantee the existence of 'mathematical Outerverse' in Lvl IV Mv (and possibly, Ultimate Mv too). As weird as that is... since the claim is basically, 'mathematics incomprehendable by human minds', or 'mathematics beyond mathematics'. Yeah... I know, crazy, I mean, math is merely byproduct of human minds but now someone is claiming math itself is beyond everything.
To put is simply, whole Lvl IV Mv/Ultimate Mv is scientific version of Hadou Gods (Tier 1-As). Extremely similar in a way that Taikyoku and Mathematical entities provide basis for reality. And both's 'existence' have no bound to our reality.
Lvl IV Mv/Ultimate Mv's 'true form' would be something like 'Plato's Realm of Ideas' (a Tier 1-A realm, @Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot and @Promestein also agreed that Ream of Ideas itself is Tier 1-A realm). More about Realm of Ideas :
https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/593864
Assuming this reasoning is accepted, then Downstreamers have created infinite number of Tier 1-A realms/beings. One staff kinda agree with me about this being sufficient to be Tier 1-A. But two other disagrees. Hence, 'Fixing 1-A explanation' thread title. But maybe I could get more input?
Possibility that Solid Tier 1-A perfectly achievable simply by creating Level IV Multiverse/Ultimate Multiverse
'Tier 1-A has to be beyond math'. Well, I only found 'transcending dimensional space' or 'being dimensionless' or 'undimensioned' as minimum requirement for being Tier 1-A (I found it in Tiering System page). And I found that many characters get 1-A precisely for 'transcending dimensional space' or 'being dimensionless' or 'being undimensioned'. Nothing about 'beyond mathematics' though.
Only 'metaphysics' and 'beyond scientific definitions'. I think 'beyond scientific definitions (physics)' and 'beyond mathematics' are kind of two different things here. Because what doesn't make sense scientifically isn't guaranteed to not make sense mathematically.
And then there's this quote I got from Tiering System page :
This "space" in which there is no dimension can be the background for any dimensional space. Within such a beyond dimensional "space", a dimensional structure with any number of dimensions can be placed, because there are no restrictions regarding dimensions.
This 'dimensionless space' is actually pretty much similar to Brian Greene's (a scientific cosmologist) proposed 'Void/Nothingness' which he wrote on 'The Hidden Reality'. Which means it's not really 'beyond mathematics' at all.
Hm, okay, lets use known example for such 'dimensionless space'. Lets use Overvoid.
Yes, it is stated that Overvoid isn't universe in our common sense, it's not just place where we can come and walk, but problem here that in the multiverse like Downstreamers', exist not only universes in conventional sense.
For example there is famous example, that was used in description of this type -universes consisted from nothing. No space, no time, no any spatial or temporal dimensions in it, no vacuum, no void, just nothing...
Yes, by all our physical laws it is impossible, but in this multiverse, this universes should exists with similar probability as universes consisted from something.
And this universes ALSO not a 'place' where we can go. So, what is Overvoid? At least in DC cosmology it is white page where story of DC setting was written. Yes, it is in no way universe in our common sense. But empty universes, consisted from nothing also isn't universes in our common sense. We are even cannot imagine it.
The most important thing here is that "universes" in it not JUST universes that we are often imagine. Because in such multiverse every imaginable and even unimaginable structure should exist as "universe"... somewhere. There is universes consisted from words , there is universes from magic, there is universes ruled by meta- stuff.
One scientist(IIRC it was Brian Green, but I can be mistaken) said about this that we can imagine strange, ugly, and unreal universe, that at the first sight is impossible, but in the level IV it should exist somewhere.
Tier 1-A defy our known laws of Physics yes, but something being mathematically impossible is a different beast.
Assuming explanation above is accepted, that Overvoid (or maybe just DC's Void/Source) is containable within Level IV Multiverse/Ultimate Multiverse, then it points that Downstreamers could create High 1-A/1-A beings/realms. Which 'High 1-A' would be elaborated in the next section...
Possibility for Post-FVC Downstreamers to be 'High 1-A'
@Azathoth's (Staff) proposed explanation for Post-FVC DS for being in 'Possibly Tier 1-A' is because Downstreamers exist on Ultimate Manifold which presumably transcend all forms of mathematics.
And this is requirement for Tier 0 :
Beings that are boundlessly above absolutely everything, including existence and nonexistence, possibility, causality, dualism and non-dualism, the concepts of life and death, and their analogues at any level.
Above possibility, huh. Well even then, Downstreamers 'create new possibilities' in their second try, changed the rule of their Level IV MV. Presumably changed the rule of mathematics itself. Well, Downstreamers are presumably above mathematics so that's given that they could at least do that much... Also, being above mathematics would gave Downstreamers ability to create Impossible Worlds, which defy all logic and impossible in every sense of the word.
And being beyond all form of mathematics would automatically give Downstreamers transcendence over 'nonexistence/existence, dualism/nondualism' and etc I think. Even more so, because even 'universes with/made out of incomprehensible concepts' would even also be present within one of Downstreamers' Manifolds/Level IV Multiverses.
Downstreamers would be absolutely above everything. Life, death, existence, non-existence, impossibilities, etc. Well, being above all form of mathematics would mean above all concepts after all (even incomprehensible/alien concepts alien to human minds). And being beyond life/death, existence/nonexistence means they, presumably like Outer Gods, simply cannot die. Which presumably would give them Type 5 Immortality.
And then there's this quote :
"Remember, a key difficulty with the Fermi Paradox has always been consistency. If there is a mechanism that removes intelligent life from the stars and planets, it must do so unfailingly and everywhere; it must be all but omniscient and omnipotent."
'Omnipotent and Omniscient'. Referring to Downstreamers, the source/solver of Fermi Paradox. It kinda make sense, Downstreamers are by far 'Supreme Beings' of Manifoldverse. If there's 'Supreme Beings' on Manifoldverse, it'd have to be them. As no one could challenge them so far in Manifoldverse.
And apparently, there's an argument in Tegmark's paper (Tegmark is the one who proposed Level IV Mv) about Level IV Mv containing an 'Omnipotent God' :
All imaginable universes exist, so there's at least one with an omnipotent God who, since he's omnipotent, can insert himself into all other structures as well. Therefore God exists in our universe.
Taken at face value, this would make Downstreamers able to create High 1-A beings.
Of course, there's no such thing as 'entire race of Omnipotents', so maybe they'd get High 1-A at most. Same level as Magnum Tenebrosum or Nyog' Sothep.
In case you're wondering, yes, I'm proposing 'Possibly/Likely High 1-A' for Downstreamers.
Fixing 1-A explanation on DS page
Ehm, okay, back to 'Fixing their 1-A explanation'. Assuming my 'beyond math isn't required to be Tier 1-A' proposal is denied (which kinda already denied, by two staffs no less, but... can't hurt to re-explain my reasoning, hehe), my proposed explanation for Downstreamers' Tier 1-A rating would be like this : 'Downstreamers transcend all forms of mathematics, they exist in Ultimate Manifold which is beyond infinite mathematical hierarchy and free of all constraints'
IIRC, @Azathoth's reasoning for 'Possibly' and not 'Solid Tier 1-A' is because Ultimate Manifold is suspected to still have constraints. But its only 'constraints' for normal human because they can't comprehend Ultimate Manifold (some universes have different category of existence which they can't observe), not because Ultimate Manifold itself have constraints in itself. So... Solid Tier 1-A?
Proposed Revisions :
Revision from 'High 1-C' to 'At least High 1-B' for Pre-FVC Downstreamers
Apparently, I made a mistake when I was assigning High 1-C rating to their Pre-FVC form. High 1-C rating is based upon one of DS' feat of editing timeline of thousand universes, one which at least followed String Theory.
A quote describing what scientific cosmology 'Main' universe follows :
"It's a sketch of the foundations of a theory of quantum gravity, which is a unification, awaited for a century, of general relativity and quantum theory, the two great pillars of physics."
"I thought we had that. String theory."
"String theory is part of it. But string theory is mathematically dense - after thirty years the theorists have only extracted a handful of predictions from it - and it's limited besides; it doesn't incorporate curved
space in a natural way. And-"
Emma pushed the report away. "What does this have to do with us?"
He smiled. "Everything.
About editing timelines :
"I don't care how aug mented you are. You can't understand. If I hadn't screwed up her life, if I'd left her on Earth—"
Would you have wanted that?
"Yes.[...]"
Then make it so, Michael murmured.
"What?"
Michael held his hand. Malenfant, the universe has many values. There is no one single path. Do you understand? The future can't be determined. Nor can the past. Therefore we are free to choose. . .
Malenfant spoke slowly, carefully. "What you're telling me is that I could change the past. I could spare Emma." The thought electrified him. "But I'm no downstreamer."
You are now, said the Michael thing.
"Will I remember?"
Consciousness spans the manifold.
I don't know if I have the strength, he thought.
"She'll forget me. Won't she, Michael?"
I'm just a kid, he said. How would I know?
Your call, Malenfant. Keep her, or give her back her life.
"Do it," he whispered.
…
And the universe pivoted around him, the lines of possibility swirling, knitting new patterns of truth and dream, and he clutched at the boy.
Thousand universes beside this are universes that Emma visited with Malenfant. These universes are non-causally connected with each other. Modifying Emma's timeline means modifying events on these universes too. It means, modifying said multiversal trip would be causality alteration on multiversal scale.
But in the same novel, there's a feat which far overshadows that. Namely Downstreamers creating their original Level IV Mv from scratch :
"They are considering constraints on the ultimate manifold."
Maura suspected that she was going to struggle with the rest of this conversation. "The manifold of what?"
"Universes. It is of course a truism that all logically possible universes must exist. The universe, this universe, is described - umm, that's the wrong word - by a formal system. Mathematics. A system of mathematics."
Maura frowned. "You mean a Theory of Everything?"
Anna waved a hand, as if that were utterly trivial, and her beautiful wings rustled. "But there are many formal systems. Some of them are less rich, some more. But each formal system is logically consistent internally, describes a possible universe, which therefore exists."
Implication that Original Level IV Mv is artificially created
"We've been expecting stars," Emma said.
"We have?"
"Sure. Think about it. If the key to breeding universes is black holes, you need to come up with the best way there is of making black holes. Which is stars. "
"We're going to see more universes full of stars now. Universes that are star factories, and so black hole factories."
[...]
Maybe she was right.
If the key goal was to make lots of black holes — and if black holes were best made in giant stars — then you wanted machines to make lots of giant stars, and reef galaxies were the best way they had yet seen.
Black hole factories. Key goal was to make lots of black holes. You want machine to make lots of giant stars. Which is galaxy reef.
Key goal, machine, factories. This imply that these 'factories' are artificial. Created by Pre-FVC Downstreamers to make new universes in... The First Expansion.
This is probably just one of their method of creating universes
More about Pre-FVC DS making Level IV Mv from scratch :
"They made the manifold."
"Who did?"
"The Old Ones.
Manifold is referring to infinite number of universes.
Nemoto went on, "I understand some of what you say. Perhaps the manifold universes were nucleated from a single primal universe by some mechanism as quantum tunneling. Perhaps the nucleation of the universes was deliberate. Perhaps the Old Ones lived in the primal universe..."
'Single Primal Universe'. Before multiverse, there's only Primal Universe.
Revision about Speed for Pre-FVC Downstreamers : 'MFTL+ without assistance' or 'Infinite Speed'
But you are Malenfant.
"The same person I was before?"
Of course. Which other?
"But I can't be. That Malenfant blew himself to bits. I can believe the portal stored information about me, sent it to the far future, and here I am reconstructed in this—" He waved a hand. " — this virtual reality Bates motel. But I'm not me."
Michael looked puzzled. You are you. I am me. Information is the most important thing. There was a German called Leibniz.
"The philosopher? Never heard of him."
Entities that cannot be distinguished by any means whatsoever, even in principle, at any time in the past, present, and future have to be considered identical. This is called the Identity of Indiscernibles. It really is you, Malenfant, just as it feels.
About information (what Pre-FVC Downstreamers are made out of) and Leibniz's Law of Identity.
"Who did this, Michael? Who brought me back?" The downstreamers. The dreamers.
"What am I supposed to do?"
Whatever you want. You must only, umm, exist. The information that defines you was stored by the portal, and therefore is part of the substrate.
Malenfant frowned. "You're telling me I don't have some kind of mission? That the decadent beings of the far future don't need my primitive instincts to save them?"
More about 'Information' which Downstreamers are made out of.
About Downstreamers' 'physical form' which is light-year wide :
Even now, of course, there was something rather than nothing. Around her was an unimaginably thin plasma: free electrons and positrons decayed from the last of the Big Bang's hydrogen, orbiting in giant, slow circles. This cold soup was the last refuge of humanity. The others drifted past her like clouds, immense, slow, coded in wispy light-year-wide atoms.
And now finally, speed upgrade for Pre FVC Downstreamers. This passage is referring to Anlic, Downstreamers who went to Mine One in search for... something :
She sought out Mine One, the wreckage of man's original galaxy. The search took more empty ages. With caution, she approached what remained. There was no shape here. No form, no colour, no time, no order.
Kinda implies Infinite Speed.
And yet there was motion: a slow, insidious, endless writhing, punctuated by bubbles which rose and burst, spitting out fragments of mass-energy. This was the singularity that had once lurked within the great black-hole's event horizon. Now it was naked, a glaring knot of quantum foam, a place where the unification of spacetime had been ripped apart to become a seething probabilistic froth. Once this object had oscillated violently, and savage tides, chaotic and unpredictable, had torn at any traveller (sic) unwary enough to come close.
And her being somewhere close to naked singularity.
And now its Anlic manipulating naked singularity so a new Downstreamer could be born from out of said naked singularity :
It was a spark of consciousness: not descended from the grunting, breeding humans of the Afterglow, but from the random quantum flexing of a singularity. Just as she had been. Anlic waited, nurturing, refining the rootless being's order and cohesion. And it gathered more data, developed sophisticatio. At last it ― she ― could frame questions.
"...Who am I? Who are you? Why are there two and not one?"
Anlic said, "I have much to tell you." And she gathered the spark in her attenuated soul.
Together, mother and daughter drifted away, and the river of time ran slowly into an unmarked sea.
Hmm, manipulating naked singularity and being in close proximity of it. Probably MFTL+ Speed without assistance? Previousy it was MFTL+ but only for FTL Ship speed.
But there's that moving in 'no time, no shape, no form' space. Would that warrant Infinite Speed?
Justification for Downstreamers' Current 'Possibly Tier 1-A' rating
@Azathoth (Staff) had adressed how True form of Level IV Multiverse which is in many way similar to Tier 1-A realm isn't enough to warrant Tier 1-A rating in itself. Because it isn't beyond math.
Or maybe because Level IV Multiverse is weird like that.
Current explanation for Post-FVC DS' 1-A rating is based on this :
Well, about 'math not transcending dimensions'...
From wiki :
Mathematical Platonism is the form of realism that suggests that mathematical entities are abstract, have no spatiotemporal or causal properties, and are eternal and unchanging. This is often claimed to be the view most people have of numbers.
From Tegmark's paper :
A first subtlety in relating the two perspectives in-volves time. Recall that a mathematical structure is an abstract, immutable entity existing outside of space and time. If history were a movie, the structure would there-fore correspond not to a single frame of it but to the entire videotape.
The Mathematical Universe Hypothesis has a very philosophical nature to it. It can be considered a form of Platonism, the philosophy of Plato, who argued that certain abstract ideas have a real independent existence beyond our minds. Similarily, Tegmark's hypothesis argues that mathematical entities such as numbers exist independently of us ― these abstract entities are not merely imaginary; they exist as part of mind-independent reality.
In a sense, Tegmark's hypothesis goes well beyond Platonism, since Tegmark claims that ultimately only mathematical objects exist and nothing else does!
There's similarity to the concept 'our reality is illusion' and 'one true reality beyond mere physical existence'.... In other words, 'mathematical entities' are source of all things, including concept of dimensional structures itself.
In a way this is similar to Plato's belief that ordinary minds cannot perceive or even understand the true nature of things. The true nature of things, Plato claims, can be traced to what he calls Forms or Ideas, which are abstract, timeless, archetypal, non-physical entities. In order to go beyond the illusory appearance of things, we need to use reason to uncover their true nature, not visual or other perception. This, he argued, only those trained in philosophy could do.
Atemporal means that it does not exist within any time period, rather it provides the formal basis for time. It therefore formally grounds beginning, persisting and ending. It is neither eternal in the sense of existing forever, nor mortal, of limited duration. It exists transcendent to time altogether.
They aren't bound by time, rather, they could be said to be 'source' of time in the first place. And 'transcendent to time' altogether.
aspatial in that they have no spatial dimensions, and thus no orientation in space, nor do they even (like the point) have a location. They are non-physical, but they are not in the mind.
Mathematical entities, are literally 'beyond physical', you won't be able to find it even if you explore infinite dimensional structures hell and back. And 'not exist within mind', in other words, mere physical beings bound by dimensions simply can't comprehend them.
Similarily, Tegmark argues that there are two possible ways to view reality; from inside the mathematical structure, and from outside it. We view it from within it, and so see a physical reality which exists in time.
About 'seeing reality from the inside'. From the perspective of dimensional beings.
From the (purely hypothetical) external point of view, however, Tegmark thinks that there is only a mathematical structure which exists outside of time. Some might respond to this by saying that the idea of 'outside of time' and 'timelessness' is verging on the mystical.
yeah, even scientists think Tegmark's idea of Multiverse is rather too... 'Outerversal' for them, hehe.
And there's truly external point of view, transcending dimensions and time altogether...
Point is, there's an Over-World out there beyond the grasp of physicals, composed of mathematical entities which are responsible for the existence of physical reality. Physical reality itself would be mere illusion when compared to mathematical entities which comprises 'Ultimate Reality'. Or to put it in anothey way, what we call 'our reality', is just one 'expression' mathematical entities could take.
... such a view is seen to parallel Plato's Theory of Forms and a "World of Ideas" (Greek: eidos (╬Áß╝Â╬┤╬┐¤é)) described in Plato's allegory of the cave: the everyday world can only imperfectly approximate an unchanging, ultimate reality.
So yeah, that kinda guarantee the existence of 'mathematical Outerverse' in Lvl IV Mv (and possibly, Ultimate Mv too). As weird as that is... since the claim is basically, 'mathematics incomprehendable by human minds', or 'mathematics beyond mathematics'. Yeah... I know, crazy, I mean, math is merely byproduct of human minds but now someone is claiming math itself is beyond everything.
To put is simply, whole Lvl IV Mv/Ultimate Mv is scientific version of Hadou Gods (Tier 1-As). Extremely similar in a way that Taikyoku and Mathematical entities provide basis for reality. And both's 'existence' have no bound to our reality.
Lvl IV Mv/Ultimate Mv's 'true form' would be something like 'Plato's Realm of Ideas' (a Tier 1-A realm, @Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot and @Promestein also agreed that Ream of Ideas itself is Tier 1-A realm). More about Realm of Ideas :
https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/593864
Assuming this reasoning is accepted, then Downstreamers have created infinite number of Tier 1-A realms/beings. One staff kinda agree with me about this being sufficient to be Tier 1-A. But two other disagrees. Hence, 'Fixing 1-A explanation' thread title. But maybe I could get more input?
Possibility that Solid Tier 1-A perfectly achievable simply by creating Level IV Multiverse/Ultimate Multiverse
'Tier 1-A has to be beyond math'. Well, I only found 'transcending dimensional space' or 'being dimensionless' or 'undimensioned' as minimum requirement for being Tier 1-A (I found it in Tiering System page). And I found that many characters get 1-A precisely for 'transcending dimensional space' or 'being dimensionless' or 'being undimensioned'. Nothing about 'beyond mathematics' though.
Only 'metaphysics' and 'beyond scientific definitions'. I think 'beyond scientific definitions (physics)' and 'beyond mathematics' are kind of two different things here. Because what doesn't make sense scientifically isn't guaranteed to not make sense mathematically.
And then there's this quote I got from Tiering System page :
This "space" in which there is no dimension can be the background for any dimensional space. Within such a beyond dimensional "space", a dimensional structure with any number of dimensions can be placed, because there are no restrictions regarding dimensions.
This 'dimensionless space' is actually pretty much similar to Brian Greene's (a scientific cosmologist) proposed 'Void/Nothingness' which he wrote on 'The Hidden Reality'. Which means it's not really 'beyond mathematics' at all.
Hm, okay, lets use known example for such 'dimensionless space'. Lets use Overvoid.
Yes, it is stated that Overvoid isn't universe in our common sense, it's not just place where we can come and walk, but problem here that in the multiverse like Downstreamers', exist not only universes in conventional sense.
For example there is famous example, that was used in description of this type -universes consisted from nothing. No space, no time, no any spatial or temporal dimensions in it, no vacuum, no void, just nothing...
Yes, by all our physical laws it is impossible, but in this multiverse, this universes should exists with similar probability as universes consisted from something.
And this universes ALSO not a 'place' where we can go. So, what is Overvoid? At least in DC cosmology it is white page where story of DC setting was written. Yes, it is in no way universe in our common sense. But empty universes, consisted from nothing also isn't universes in our common sense. We are even cannot imagine it.
The most important thing here is that "universes" in it not JUST universes that we are often imagine. Because in such multiverse every imaginable and even unimaginable structure should exist as "universe"... somewhere. There is universes consisted from words , there is universes from magic, there is universes ruled by meta- stuff.
One scientist(IIRC it was Brian Green, but I can be mistaken) said about this that we can imagine strange, ugly, and unreal universe, that at the first sight is impossible, but in the level IV it should exist somewhere.
Tier 1-A defy our known laws of Physics yes, but something being mathematically impossible is a different beast.
Assuming explanation above is accepted, that Overvoid (or maybe just DC's Void/Source) is containable within Level IV Multiverse/Ultimate Multiverse, then it points that Downstreamers could create High 1-A/1-A beings/realms. Which 'High 1-A' would be elaborated in the next section...
Possibility for Post-FVC Downstreamers to be 'High 1-A'
@Azathoth's (Staff) proposed explanation for Post-FVC DS for being in 'Possibly Tier 1-A' is because Downstreamers exist on Ultimate Manifold which presumably transcend all forms of mathematics.
And this is requirement for Tier 0 :
Beings that are boundlessly above absolutely everything, including existence and nonexistence, possibility, causality, dualism and non-dualism, the concepts of life and death, and their analogues at any level.
Above possibility, huh. Well even then, Downstreamers 'create new possibilities' in their second try, changed the rule of their Level IV MV. Presumably changed the rule of mathematics itself. Well, Downstreamers are presumably above mathematics so that's given that they could at least do that much... Also, being above mathematics would gave Downstreamers ability to create Impossible Worlds, which defy all logic and impossible in every sense of the word.
And being beyond all form of mathematics would automatically give Downstreamers transcendence over 'nonexistence/existence, dualism/nondualism' and etc I think. Even more so, because even 'universes with/made out of incomprehensible concepts' would even also be present within one of Downstreamers' Manifolds/Level IV Multiverses.
Downstreamers would be absolutely above everything. Life, death, existence, non-existence, impossibilities, etc. Well, being above all form of mathematics would mean above all concepts after all (even incomprehensible/alien concepts alien to human minds). And being beyond life/death, existence/nonexistence means they, presumably like Outer Gods, simply cannot die. Which presumably would give them Type 5 Immortality.
And then there's this quote :
"Remember, a key difficulty with the Fermi Paradox has always been consistency. If there is a mechanism that removes intelligent life from the stars and planets, it must do so unfailingly and everywhere; it must be all but omniscient and omnipotent."
'Omnipotent and Omniscient'. Referring to Downstreamers, the source/solver of Fermi Paradox. It kinda make sense, Downstreamers are by far 'Supreme Beings' of Manifoldverse. If there's 'Supreme Beings' on Manifoldverse, it'd have to be them. As no one could challenge them so far in Manifoldverse.
And apparently, there's an argument in Tegmark's paper (Tegmark is the one who proposed Level IV Mv) about Level IV Mv containing an 'Omnipotent God' :
All imaginable universes exist, so there's at least one with an omnipotent God who, since he's omnipotent, can insert himself into all other structures as well. Therefore God exists in our universe.
Taken at face value, this would make Downstreamers able to create High 1-A beings.
Of course, there's no such thing as 'entire race of Omnipotents', so maybe they'd get High 1-A at most. Same level as Magnum Tenebrosum or Nyog' Sothep.
In case you're wondering, yes, I'm proposing 'Possibly/Likely High 1-A' for Downstreamers.
Fixing 1-A explanation on DS page
Ehm, okay, back to 'Fixing their 1-A explanation'. Assuming my 'beyond math isn't required to be Tier 1-A' proposal is denied (which kinda already denied, by two staffs no less, but... can't hurt to re-explain my reasoning, hehe), my proposed explanation for Downstreamers' Tier 1-A rating would be like this : 'Downstreamers transcend all forms of mathematics, they exist in Ultimate Manifold which is beyond infinite mathematical hierarchy and free of all constraints'
IIRC, @Azathoth's reasoning for 'Possibly' and not 'Solid Tier 1-A' is because Ultimate Manifold is suspected to still have constraints. But its only 'constraints' for normal human because they can't comprehend Ultimate Manifold (some universes have different category of existence which they can't observe), not because Ultimate Manifold itself have constraints in itself. So... Solid Tier 1-A?
Proposed Revisions :
- 'MFTL+ /Infinite Speed without assistance' for Pre-FVC Downstreamers
- At least High 1-B rating for Pre-FVC Downstreamers
- Fix Downstreamers' 'Tier 1-A' explanation...
- Possibility of Post-FVC DS being in Tier High 1-A
- Possibility of Post-FVC DS having Type 5 Immortality
