The Time Ships' factions' Tiers?

So, I want to make new pages. About Watchers and Universal Constructors from novel 'The Time Ships' (by Stephen Baxter).


Realm of Ideas :

[… It was as if the partition had appeared out of nothing.

"Where does it come from?" I asked Nebogipfel. He said, after some thought — evidently he had to choose his words: "The Sphere has a Memory. It has machines which enable it to store that Memory. And the form of the data blocks" — he meant the partitions — "is held in the Sphere's Memory, to be retrieved in this material form as desired." For my entertainment, Nebogipfel caused more extrusions: on one pillar I saw a tray of foodstuffs and water rising out of the floor, as if prepared by some invisible butler! I was struck by this idea of extrusions from the uniform and featureless Floor. It reminded me of the Platonist theory of thought expounded by some philosophers: that to every object there exists, in some realm, an ideal Form — an essence of Chair, the summation of Table-ness, and so on — and when an object is manufactured in our world, templates stored in the Platonic over-world are consulted. Well, here I was in a Platonic universe made real, the whole of this mighty, sun-girdling Sphere was suffused by an artificial, god-like Memory — a Memory within whose rooms I walked even as we spoke. And within the Memory was stored the Ideal of every object the heart could desire — or at least, as desired by a Morlock heart.]

The existence of Plato's realm of ideas in Time Shipsverse.


[Now, only a gray-white light filled my awareness: but that is a metaphor, for I knew that what I was experiencing now was not the light of Physics, but that glow hypothesized by Plato, the light which underlies all awareness — the light against which matter, events and minds are mere shadows.]

Time Traveller and co. reached Plato's Realm of Ideas (Conceptual/Metaphysics Realm?).


[We have reached the Nucleation, whispered Nebogipfel. Space and Time are so twisted over that they are indistinguishable. There is no Physics here… There is no Structure. One cannot point and say: that is there, such a distance away; and I am here. There is no Measurement — no Observation… It is all as One.]

[no Physics], [no Structure], [no Measurement], [no Observation]. Clearly indicates metaphysical realm.


Continuously Branching Timelines :

["If you had returned here and shot your younger self well, there would be no causal contradiction: instead, you would create a new History, a fresh variant in the Multiplicity, in which you died young at the hand of a stranger."]

No causal contradiction. Different decision leads to new history.


[Nebogipfel said, "We cannot help but interact with History, you and I. With every breath we take, every tree you cut down, every animal we kill, we create a new world in the Multiplicity of Worlds. That is all. It is unavoidable."]

Further in creating new histories.


[All possible Histories exist in the greater Multiplicity, lying against one another in an endless catalogue of What-Can-Be. Every History which was possible, with all its cargo of Mind, Love and Hope, had an existence somewhere in the Multiplicity.]

All possible histories exists in the multiverse.

Descriptions above share strong similarity with Level III Multiverse. Level III Multiverse according to Tegmark's paper :

[As strange as this may sound, Figure 5 illustrates that this exact same situation occurs even in the Level I multiverse, the only difference being where her copies reside (elsewhere in good old three-dimensional space as opposed to elsewhere in infinite-dimensional Hilbert space, in other quantum branches). In this sense, Level III is no stranger than Level I.]

Level III Multiverse is infinite dimensional. However, no direct statement that a Time Shipsverse itself is infinite dimensional. Only that its Multiplicity-multiverse- have strong resemblance to Level III Multiverse, which have infinite dimensions.


Body Modifications :

[Nebogipfel said, "They mean to carry us with them — the Constructors — these beings of Plattnerite — back to the dawn of time, and perhaps beyond… But not like this." He indicated his own fragile body. "We could never survive it — not for a minute… Do you see?" The Plattnerite tentacles brushed against my scalp, forehead and shoulders; I ducked, to avoid their cold grip. "You mean," I said, "that we must become like them. Like the Constructors… we must submit to the touch of these Plattnerite cilia! Why did you not warn me of this?"]

Universal Constructors intended to bring Time Traveller and Nebogipfel with them to the Beginning of Time, perhaps beyond boundary of time itself. But Human body won't survive in the process, let alone survive in the metaphysical realm (later shown below).


[I was outside Time and Space. It was not like sleep — for even in sleep, the brain is active, functioning, sorting through its freight of information and memories; even in sleep, I contend, one remains conscious, aware of one's self and of one's continued existence.]

Time Traveller after body 'modification'. Described as being outside Time and Space.


[Nebogipfel, what am I? Am I still a man? You are still yourself, he said firmly. The only difference now is that the machinery which sustains you is not made up of bone and flesh, but of constructs within the Information Sea… You have limbs, not of sinew and blood, but of Understanding.]

Time Traveller have body literally made out of Information. Kinda same thing like things from Morlocks' sphere. Made out of Ideas.


Time Travelling Towards Beginning Of Time :

[We are close to the Boundary, Nebogipfel whispered. The beginning of time itself… and yet you must imagine that we are not alone: that our History — this young, glowing universe — is but one of an infinite number which has emerged from that Boundary; and that as we retreat all the members of that Multiplicity are converging towards this moment, this Boundary, like swooping birds…]

Time travelling towards the beginning of time. And the explanation how histories are converging.


[The Time Ships no longer accompanied me — perhaps their physical forms had been unable to survive that journey through the Nucleation — and the Plattnerite netting around me had gone. But I was not alone; all about me — like snowflakes caught in a flash-lamp's burst — were speckles of Plattnerite-green light, which bobbed and drifted about each other. These were the elemental consciousness of the Constructors, I knew, and I wondered if Nebogipfel was among this disembodied host, and indeed if I, too, appeared to the rest as a dancing point.]

How Time Ships can't survive journey past Nucleation. Understandable, it is a 'Nothing' area after all.


[And, just as our History has shriveled to a single, searing point, so the Multiplicity of Histories has converged. The Boundary itself is melting away — can you understand it? — lost in the infinite possibilities of the collapsed Multiplicity…]

Explanation how multiplicity itself contains infinite possibilities = infinite timelines.


[And, in the Time Ships, we reached one pole.

Yes. That point where all the longitude lines converge. And, in that precise instant of infinite possibility, the Constructors fired their Nonlinearity Engines…

The Constructors have traveled across the Histories, he said. They — and we — have followed paths of Imaginary Time, paths scrawled sideways across the surface of the Multiplicity globe, until we have reached this new History…]

Constructors fired their Nonlinearity Engines in the convergence of histories…


[I do not know… it was not chosen for us. Remember that the Constructors have sought, he said, a universe — out of all the in finite sheaf of possibilities that is the Multiplicity — a universe which is optimal for them.]

… to choose a single universe as their new home. The Optimal History.


The Optimal History/Infinite Universe :

[Nebogipfel said, Among all the myriad possibilities, the Constructors have sought out that universe — the single one — which is Infinite in extent, and Eternal in age: where that Boundary at the Beginning of Time has been pushed into the infinite past. We have traveled beyond the Nucleation, to the Boundary of Time and Space themselves. And ape-fingers have reached out to the Singularity that lies there — and pushed it back!]

[infinite past] the universe literally would have no beginning. [Infinite in extent] infinite size/volume, [Eternal in age] the universe would not die.


[An infinite universe!

You might look out, through the smoky clouds of London, at the stars which mark out the sky's cathedral roof; it is all so immense, so unchanging, that it is easy to suppose that the cosmos is an unending thing, and that it has endured forever.

…But it cannot be so. And one only need ask a common sense question — why is the night sky dark? — to see why.

If you had an infinite universe, with stars and galaxies spread out through an endless void, then whichever direction in the sky you looked, your eye must meet a ray of light coming from the surface of a star. The night sky would glow everywhere as brightly as the sun…]

More about Constructor's infinite universe.


Appearance of The Watchers :

[The form before me coalesced against the star-light, as if a magic-lantern slide had been held up before me. It began as a mere shadow against that universal glare — at first I was not sure if there was anything there at all, save for the projections of my own desperate imagination — but at last it gained a sort of solidity.

It was a ball, apparently of flesh, dangling in space, as unsupported as I was. I judged it to be eight or ten feet from me (wherever, and whatever, I was) and perhaps four feet across. Tentacles dangled from its underside. I heard a soft, babbling sound. There was a fleshy beak, no sign of nostrils, and two huge eyelids which now wrinkled up like curtains, to reveal eyes — human eyes! — that fixed on me.]

Appearance of a Watcher. Some sort of posthuman being.


[The Watcher was immense before me. His flesh was smooth, and covered with fine, downy hairs; his eyes were immense — sky-blue — with all the beautiful complexity of human eyes — and I could even smell him now; he had a soft animal musk about him, a scent of milk, perhaps. I was struck by how human he was. This may seem odd to you, but there — so close to the beast, and suspended in all that unstructured immensity — his common points with the human form were more striking than his grosser differences. I grew convinced that this was human: distorted by tremendous sweeps of evolutionary time, perhaps, but somehow akin to me.]

More descriptions how the Watcher strongly implied to be human in origin.


[Throughout my brief, spectacular career as a Time Traveler, I saw now, I had been followed — studied — by the Watchers. The Watchers must be able to follow at will the lines of Imaginary Time, crossing the infinite Histories of the Multiplicity with the ease of a steamship traversing an ocean's currents; the Watchers had taken the crude, explosive Nonlinearity Engines developed by the Constructors and developed them to a fine pitch.]

Watchers can travel through histories with ease. And how advanced they are compared to the Constructors.


[This Optimal History was engineered — and this artifice must be what the Watcher had brought me on this immense journey to understand.

I recalled old predictions that an infinite universe would be prone to disastrous gravitational collapse — it was another reason why our own cosmos could not, logically, be infinite. For, just as the earth and other planets had coalesced from knots in that turbulent cloud of debris around the infant sun, so there would be eddies in this greater cloud of galaxies which populated the Optimal History — eddies into which stars and galaxies should tumble, on an immense scale.

But the Watchers were evidently managing the evolution of their cosmos to avoid such catastrophes: I had learned how Space and Time are themselves dynamic, adjustable entities. The Watchers were manipulating the bending, collapsing, twisting and shearing of Space and Time themselves, in order to achieve their objective of a stable cosmos.]

Explains how the Infinite Universe (Infinite in… pretty much everything), the Optimal History that Constructors choose as their new home actually was aritificially engineered by The Watchers to be that way.


[Of course there could be no end to this careful engineering, if this universe were to remain viable — and, I thought, if the universe was eternal, there could have been no beginning to it either. That reflection troubled me, briefly: for it was a paradox, a causal circle. Life would be required to exist, in order to engineer the conditions which were prerequisite to the existence of Life here…

But I soon dismissed such confusions! I was, I realized, being much too parochial in my thinking: I was not allowing for the Infinitude of things. Since this universe was infinitely old — and Life had existed here for an infinitely long time — there was no beginning to the benign cycle of Life's maintenance of the conditions for its own survival. Life existed here because the universe was viable; and the universe was viable because Life existed here to manage it… and on, an infinite regression, without beginning — and without paradox! I felt loftily amused at my own confusion. It was clearly going to take me some time to come to terms with the meaning of Infinity and Eternity!]

Optimal History exists because Watchers are there to make it so and Watchers are there to maintain Optimal History because they are born in Optimal History.

[no end to this careful engineering] maybe it meant that before Watchers (humans) even 'born', Watchers are (somehow) already around to engineer this Optimal History.


Constructors Become One with Optimal History :

[The meaning of this bizarre vision was immediately clear to me, for I saw more of the regularity here which I had observed among the galaxies and stars. I could see — suffused in every wisp of gas, in every stray atom — meaning and structure. There was a purpose to the orientation of each atom, the direction of its spin, and the linkages between it and its neighbors. It was as if the universe, the whole of it, had become a sort of Library, to store the collective wisdom of this ancient variant of Humanity; every scrap of matter, down to the last stray wisp, was evidently catalogued and exploited… Just as Nebogipfel had predicted as the final goal of Intelligence!]

Constructors encoded their knowledge into Optimal History.


[But this arrangement was more than a Library — more than a passive collection of dusty data — for there was a sense of life, of urgency, all about me. It was as if consciousness was distributed across these vast assemblages of matter.]

Constructors' consciousness itself became one with Optimal History.


[Mind filled this universe, seeping down into its very fabric! — I seemed to see thought and awareness wash across this universal array of fact in great waves. I was astonished by the scale of all this — I could not grasp its boundless nature — by comparison, my own species had been limited to the manipulation of the outer skin of an insignificant planet, the Morlocks to their Sphere; and even the Constructors had only had a Galaxy — a single star-system, out of millions…

Here, though, Mind had it all — an Infinitude. Now, at last, I understood — I saw for myself — the meaning and purpose of infinite and eternal Life.]

More explanations.


[The universe was infinitely old, and infinite in extent; and Mind, too, was infinitely old. Mind had gained control of all Matter and Forces, and had stored an infinite amount of Information.]

How Mind (Constructors? Watchers? Rather unclear. But Constructors previously referred as 'Mind', but Watchers are the one who engineered Optimal History in the first place) was infinitely old. And literally have stored infinite amount of information.

[Mind here was omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent. The Constructors, by means of their bold challenge to the beginnings of time, had achieved their ideal. They had transcended the finite, and colonized the infinite.]

Constructors gained control of all Forces and Matter. Constructors became one with Optimal History, thus they're omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent inside it.


Watchers may be also One with Optimal History itself :

[My Watcher halted and rotated in space like some fleshy balloon. Those huge eyes came towards me, dark, immense, the glare of the light-drenched sky reflected in pupils the size of saucers; at last, it seemed, my world was filled by that immense, compelling gaze, to the exclusion of all else — even the fiery sky…

But then the Watcher seemed to melt away. The scattering of distant constellations, the foamy galactic structure — even the glare of the burning sky — I saw them no more — or rather, I was aware of these things as an aspect of reality, but only as a surface. If you imagine focusing on a pane of glass before you — and then deliberately relaxing the muscles of your eye, to fix on a landscape beyond, so that the dust on that pane disappears from your awareness — then you will have something of the effect I am describing.

But, of course, my change in perception was caused by nothing so physical as a tug of eye muscles, and the shift in perspective I endured involved rather more than depth of focus. I saw — I thought — into the structure of Nature.]

Implied that Watchers too (race more advanced than Constructors, and the race who engineered the Optimal History) are one with Optimal History itself.


Existence of Greater Multiplicities :

["That's all clear enough to me, now. There is no paradox possible within a single History, because of the existence of the Multiplicity."

"But," the Morlock went on calmly, "the Watchers have brought you here, so that you could deliver the Plattnerite to yourself that you could initiate the sequence of events which led to the development of the first Time Machine, and the creation of the Multiplicity. So there is a greater closure — of the Multiplicity on itself."

I saw what he was driving at. "There is a sort of closed loop of causality, after all," I said, "a worm eating its own tail… The Multiplicity could not have been brought into existence, if not for the existence of the Multiplicity in the first place!"

Nebogipfel said that the Watchers believed that the resolution of this Final Paradox required the existence of more Multiplicities: a Multiplicity of Multiplicities!

"The higher order is logically necessary to resolve the causal loop," Nebogipfel said, "just as our Multiplicity was required to exist to resolve the paradoxes of a single History."

"But — confound it, Nebogipfel! My mind is reeling at the thought. Parallel ensembles of universes — is it possible?" "More than possible," he said. "And the Watchers intend to travel there."]

[Multiplicity of Multiplicities], multiverse of multiverses.


[He lowered his head from the sky. The dawn was growing quite bright now, and I could see the pasty flesh around his eyes wrinkle up in discomfort. "And they will take me with them. I can think of no greater adventure… can you?"

"Nebogipfel — when you reach this greater Multiplicity — what then?"

"There are many orders of Infinity," Nebogipfel said calmly, the light rain trickling down the contours of his face. "It is like a hierarchy: of universal structures — and of ambitions." His voice retained that soft Morlock gurgle — its intonations quite alien — and yet it was suffused with wonder. "The Constructors could have owned a universe; but it was not enough. So they challenged Finitude, and touched the Boundary of Time, and reached through that, and enabled Mind to colonize and inhabit all the many universes of the Multiplicity. But, for the Watchers of the Optimal History, even this is not sufficient; and they are seeking ways of reaching beyond, to further Orders of Infinity…"

"And if they succeed? Will they rest?"

"There is no rest. No limit. No end to the Beyond — no Boundaries which Life, and Mind, cannot challenge, and breach." ]

[There are many orders of Infinity], [It is like a hierarchy], [The higher order is logically necessary to resolve the causal loop], [greater Multiplicity], [just as our Multiplicity was required to exist to resolve the paradoxes of a single History], [There is no rest. No limit. No end to the Beyond]

To summarize, the existence of a multiverse ensure the existence of greater multiverse (multiverse of multiverses) in order to resolve causal loop. Greater multiverse needed greater-greater multiverse to resolve it's causal loop. Ad infinitum and you get endless hierarchies (layers?) of… everything.


Okay so, points are :

• Universal Constructors are race of machines that is made of Plattnerite. Substances that allows for time travel in The Time Ships novel.

• Being made of Plattnerite made you being able to be outside Time and Space apparently.

• Universal Constructors, Time Traveller (and presumably Watchers too) could travel past the 'decreating' of Multiplicity. Where histories converge. Even Time Ships themselves are physically affected by the 'convergence' process. Implying multiversal durability.

• Universal Constructors, Time Traveller (and presumably Watchers too) were able to reach past the Boundary of Time and Space, past [no Physics] [no Structure] [no Measurement] [no Observation] [It is all as One.] realm. Possibly some sort of Metaphysical realm, it sure have similarity to Plato's Realm of Ideas/Theory of Forms. Morlocks (future humans) was shown to be able to drag things out of it.

• Universal Constructors could become one with Infinite Universe. Being Omnipotent, Omnipresent and Omniscience inside it.

• Time Shipsverse possibly have infinite dimensions (share similarities to Level III Multiverse).

• It have endless hierarchies (layers?) of multiverse. With each hierarchy above is literally infinitely greater than below.

• Watchers themselves aren't currently at the top of said endless hierarchies (layers?). But strongly implied to be able to breach even said endless hierarchies.

• I personally would like to rank Universal Constructors Tier 2-A in durability and Low 2-C in general.

• Watchers… they're bit like Downstreamers. But they're not yet standing on top of endless hierarchies. So maybe I'd give them 'At least Low 2-C likely higher', or 'Possibly High 1-B (if endless hierarchy is accepted)' maybe 'Possibly 1-A' (if transcending Realm of Ideas and Endless Hierarchies are accepted as Outerversal, even if Watchers haven't done it yet)

• Then again, Downstreamers (https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Downstreamers) pretty much already topped Watchers in capabilities (superior Multiverse-which would automatically include Realm of Ideas, [no Physics, no Structure, no Observation, ] realm too- and DS are standing above endless hierarchies and DS too could survive without multiverse or physics) but even them are not accepted as Tier 1-A. So don't want to get my hopes up I guess.

So, thoughts?

This post is so long and at times not very well organized it is hard to read

Done! thank you for your attention!

From a quick read, they seem to be High 1-B, but I'd like the input of other people.

Thank you for fixing the post.

thank you for reading it again!

I will ask for Azathoth's help too maybe!

The Watchers are what interest me the most, as they essentially push themselves to manifest on higher layers of infinity. It's sort of a similar concept to what is done with Voyagers in Umineko, but Watchers are actually starting on a lower realm as opposed to having a "core" that is outside this hierarchy by its nature.

Perhaps 1-B with a sufficient explanation, or maybe "Potentially up to High 1-B"?

@Azathoth

thx for your opinion Azathoth~!

Hmm, I think I underestimated Universal Constructors

["The Constructors could have owned a universe; but it was not enough. So they challenged Finitude, and touched the Boundary of Time, and reached through that, and enabled Mind to colonize and inhabit all the many universes of the Multiplicity.]

Uhh, this kinda make them High Multiversal (I only noticed their colonization on one universe, huh, strange).

So, would Constructors have 1-B rating too? they did colonize Infinite universes, but on lower end of layers.


Hmm, 1-B, howw would the explanation go exactly? It isn't explicitly stated how many finite dimensions Time Shipsverse have...

I'm not sure exactly how to put it yet, but I'll think on it.

Okay, I'll just start making pages for them now. And revise it later

Sounds good.

Uhh, It just hit me that The Watchers are may actually be carbon copy of Voyager Witches (in a way that they're all actually bunch of Tier 1-As, but limit themselves)

Basic Idea about world of Forms/Realm of Ideas :

According to Plato, Socrates postulated a world of ideal Forms, which he admitted were impossible to know. Nevertheless, he formulated a very specific description of that world, which did not match his metaphysical principles. Corresponding to the world of Forms is our world, that of the shadows, an imitation of the real one
It is source of all things in existence.

Okay, let me connect Time Shipsverse Realm of Ideas with Hadou Gods' Taikyoku

In essence, it is said that the Sinza is the source of everything but the gods or "God" or Gudou / Hadou Gods are essentially similar entities in Shinza, they are the ultimate reality that exists independent of the Creator or whole and is the source of all things of the universe contained within them, so even if the Shinza and all things is destroyed to nothingness, the gods are still not affected at all."
Okay, now lets connect it with Plato's Theory of Forms again :

The Forms are expounded upon in Plato's dialogues and general speech, in that every object or quality in reality has a form: dogs, human beings, mountains, colors, courage, love, and goodness. Form answers the question, "What is that?" Plato was going a step further and asking what Form itself is. He supposed that the object was essentially or "really" the Form and that the phenomena were mere shadows mimicking the Form; that is, momentary portrayals of the Form under different circumstances.
This, would mean world of Forms/Realm of Ideas is 'source of all things'. Including concept of dimensional structure, spacetime, duality, existence and etc.

And now lets see the similarity between Theory of Forms and Yog-Sothoth :

The archetypes, throbbed the waves, are the people of the ultimate abyss; formless, ineffable, and guessed at only by rare dreamers on the low-dimensioned worlds. Chief among such was this informing BEING itself . . . which indeed was Carter's own archetype. The glutless zeal of Carter and all his forbears for forbidden cosmic secrets was a natural result of derivation from the SUPREME ARCHETYPE. On every world all great wizards, all great thinkers, all great artists, are facets of IT.
Back to Theory of Forms :

These Forms are the essences of various objects: they are that without which a thing would not be the kind of thing it is. For example, there are countless tables in the world but the Form of tableness is at the core; it is the essence of all of them. Plato's Socrates held that the world of Forms is transcendent to our own world (the world of substances) and also is the essential basis of reality. Super-ordinate to matter, Forms are the most pure of all things. Furthermore, he believed that true knowledge/intelligence is the ability to grasp the world of Forms with one's mind.
Now you might argue Yog and Realm of Ideas aren't same because Yog is 'beyond fancy and mathematics alike'. But the thing to note here is that Plato doesn't claim that world of Forms is comprehendable by 'fancy and mathematics alike', quite the opposite, he stated that if something is able to comprehend world of FOrms, it/he/she would have what Plato considers to be 'true intelligence'. Problably Plato means our 'human intelligence' is 'fake intelligence' which is merely shadow of the Form of 'true intelligence'.

More about similarity between Yog and world of Forms :

The objects that are seen, according to Plato, are not real, but literally mimic the real Forms. In the Allegory of the Cave expressed in Republic, the things that are ordinarily perceived in the world are characterized as shadows of the real things, which are not perceived directly.
More about unchanging Forms and its true transcendence :

It would be a mistake to take Plato's imagery as positing the intelligible world as a literal physical space apart from this one. Plato emphasizes that the Forms are not beings that extend in space (or time), but subsist apart from any physical space whatsoever. Thus we read in the Symposium of the Form of Beauty: "It is not anywhere in another thing, as in an animal, or in earth, or in heaven, or in anything else, but itself by itself with itself," (211b). And in the Timaeus Plato writes: "Since these things are so, we must agree that that which keeps its own form unchangingly, which has not been brought into being and is not destroyed, which neither receives into itself anything else from anywhere else, nor itself enters into anything anywhere, is one thing,"
So, yeah, now we've established world of Forms' 'Outerverseness'. Which in my opinion, is quite Outerversal metaphysically.

More about Theory of Forms :

For Plato, forms, such as beauty, are more real than any object that imitate them. Though the forms are timeless and unchanging, physical things are in a constant change of existence. Where forms are unqualified perfection, physical things are qualified and conditioned
A Form is aspatial (transcendent to space) and atemporal (transcendent to time). Atemporal means that it does not exist within any time period, rather it provides the formal basis for time. It therefore formally grounds beginning, persisting and ending. It is neither eternal in the sense of existing forever, nor mortal, of limited duration. It exists transcendent to time altogether. Forms are aspatial in that they have no spatial dimensions, and thus no orientation in space, nor do they even (like the point) have a location. They are non-physical, but they are not in the mind. Forms are extra-mental (i.e. real in the strictest sense of the word).

A Form is an objective "blueprint" of perfection. The Forms are perfect themselves because they are unchanging.
Yeah, 'Forms' are 'concepts'. And as I already said before, it is beyond dimensions and spacetime alike, source of all things. All things in reality which are merely facets of Forms.

Now go back to Yog again :

All descended lines of beings of the finite dimensions, continued the waves, and all stages of growth in each one of these beings, are merely manifestations of one archetypal and eternal being in the space outside dimensions.
The only difference is that 'World of Forms' as a whole is embodied by one 'thing', which is Yog. Everything else points that world of Forms being similar to Yog.

And now we go to next problem :

We have reached the Nucleation, whispered Nebogipfel. Space and Time are so twisted over that they are indistinguishable. There is no Physics here… There is no Structure. One cannot point and say: that is there, such a distance away; and I am here. There is no Measurement — no Observation… It is all as One.
[no Physics], [no Structure], [no Measurement], [no Observation].

Now arrived on world of Forms/Realm of Ideas

Now, only a gray-white light filled my awareness: but that is a metaphor, for I knew that what I was experiencing now was not the light of Physics, but that glow hypothesized by Plato, the light which underlies all awareness — the light against which matter, events and minds are mere shadows.
Time Traveller and co. reached Plato's Realm of Ideas/world of Forms (Outerverse/Source of All Things). Which shown the Light of Plato from Plato's 'Analogy of the Sun'. From wiki, it is also said to be 'The One', similar to Yog-sothoth's concept of Supreme Archetype.

Watchers and co. are all able exist in this Outerverse. Hell, even Morlocks, a race far below Universal Constructors and Watchers are able to make use world of Forms/Realm of Ideas. Granted, Universal Constructors, Time Traveller and Nebogipfel only surviving the Outerverse thanks to Watchers' help, but oh well...

So yeah, I think, like Umineko Witches, Watchers could go 'Tier 1-A' anytime they want. And about 'breaching endless hierarchies'? Statements who points to that don't have any ambiguity

confound it, Nebogipfel! My mind is reeling at the thought. Parallel ensembles of universes — is it possible?" "More than possible," he said. "And the Watchers intend to travel there."
'And the Watchers intend to travel there', this tells us that it is a certainity that Watchers could do that.
But, for the Watchers of the Optimal History, even this is not sufficient; and they are seeking ways of reaching beyond, to further Orders of Infinity…" "And if they succeed? Will they rest?" "There is no rest. No limit. No end to the Beyond — no Boundaries which Life, and Mind, cannot challenge, and breach."
More confirmation on Watchers ability to breach endless hierarchy and transcending it.
In the first place, the little 'adventure' to Outerverse/world of Ideas is just done by Watchers to help Universal Constructors to colonize infinite multiverse to satisfy Constructors' thrist for knowledge. And Watchers are presumably present in H.G Wells' Time Machine and elaborated in Baxter's Time Ships that they are 'interested in seeing individual time travels', in other words, these are probably their ideas of 'having fun' (albeit less villainous than Umineko Witches, who are bunch of trolls who could only have fun by trolling people).

And about Watchers' 'adventure in transcending endless hierarchies' pointed out by Nebogipfel at the end of the novel? It probably less of an 'adventure' and more like Watchers want to impress lesser being like Nebogipfel and show him 'endless hierarchy' Watchers had already transcended.

So yeah, Time Ships' whole point (and its ending) is actually not about 'Watchers' adventure in transcending infinity'. But rather, 'Watchers babysitting lesser races because they have nothing else to do'.

"But, for the Watchers of the Optimal History, even this is not sufficient; and they are seeking ways of reaching beyond, to further Orders of Infinity…" "And if they succeed? Will they rest?" "There is no rest. No limit. No end to the Beyond — no Boundaries which Life, and Mind, cannot challenge, and breach."

This seems to imply that they will forever be rising an infinite hierarchy, as it says "to further Orders of Infinity".

The Realm of Forms seems 1-A, though, and if they really are able to access and use it like that, then...

@Promestei
Oh, in case you're wondering where I got bunch of quotes about Realm of Ideas from, I got them from from wikipedia... and Yog from 'Yog's respect thread' on another site.

But yeah, " seeking ways to reach further orders of infinity"... Obviously they aren't beyond endless... not yet....

But IIRC, one of reasons why Lucifer Morningstar and Voyager Witches have their 1-A rating is because they could survive in something like Plato's world of Forms, namely Overvoid and Sea of Nothingness. But if Watchers could alredy exist in such place... what use is for them to 'transcend endless hieararhy'?

This is not case of 'limitations' probably. The sentence itself said :
[— no Boundaries which Life, and Mind, cannot challenge, and breach."]
The reason why the sentence sounds so certain about Watchers being able to breach everything maybe because their 'core', like Umineko Witches, could perfectly withstand Outerverse.

Maybe the analogy is like a Lvl. 1 Game Character (Watchers) fight an overpowered boss monster (Realm of Ideas), said Game Character (Watchers) wins somehow. Now, he's overleveled, what's left in the game? just unending mooks who'd die from a hit of the Game Character.

But this :
["There is no rest. No limit. No end to the Beyond]
Yeah, this suggest Watchers would spend their time eternally breaching 'endless hierarchy'... even if they're already 'Overleveled', even if they already reached the 'top'.

So, yeah, I think this is the case where sometimes, somebody could truly run without even learning to walk first.

Maybe I'll wait for Azathoth first... Azathoth would certainly know more about Watchers' parallel to Voyager Witches or Realm of Ideas' parallel to Yog-Sothoth.

It's possible the Watchers have some level of transcendence, but as far as I am aware, while they can climb as high as they want on the endless hierarchy, they still have to actually climb it. They will never stop growing more powerful and intelligent, but that does not mean they will transcend this hierarchy entirely.

@Azathoth
Uhh, what about Watchers' feat in reaching Outerverse (Time Ships got destroyed nearing that and if not for Watchers and UC, neither Nebo and Time Traveler would survive)? Light of Plato seems synonymous to 'Supreme Archetype' concept that describes Yog-sothoth... Wouldn't that mean Tier 1-A since Lucifer and Umineko Witches got Tier 1-A rating for doing exactly that?

but that contradict about 'never transcending hierarchy'.

There's another way to look at it, that Watchers are so assured to be able to breach endless hierarchy because they already have, they can breach Outerverse/world of Forms and survive inside it is example of that. Its just that they probably seeks for another ways as pointed in this quote :

they are seeking ways of reaching beyond
[ways] plural, more than one. They already do it once, why not do it again? But using different way this time...

That's just my personal view btw. Otherwise, Watchers' Outerversal feat won't make any sense.

That, or Realm of Ideas/Outerverse would have 'endless hierarchy' too. In which case this is some case like Hajun, Tier 1-A always rising to infinity,,,

That, or world of Forms aren't really Outerverse like Sea of Nothingness/Yog-sothoth/Overvoid. But that'd contradict the very concept of Realm of Ideas/world of Forms. Or maybe Baxter have different definition about Plato's Realm of Ideas, which could be the case and don't contradict anything in the book, but only contradict Plato's definition.

Lucifer is also 1-A because he killed a 1-A thing with a touch, but okay.

Reaching a 1-A space doesn't mean you've transcended the lower space.

"they are seeking ways of reaching beyond, to further Orders of Infinity"

Again, this quote implies that they will forever be climbing the infinite hierarchy. Infinity doesn't matter in a 1-A space.

Promestein is correct. A character being present in a 1-A space does not automatically mean that it shares the traits of its environment.

Okay, how is surviving Outerverse affecting Watchers' durability then? would Watchers have Outerversal durability? or Hyperversal?

Hmm, Realm of Ideas is 1-A but... yeah, there are no profile for 'Place' here in this wiki IIRC...

As has already been stated, being in 1-A space does not make you 1-A.

Otherwise every human in the Cthulhu Mythos is potentially extremely high-level 1-A. Which would be hilarious, but very poorly thought out.

Okay, still Multiversal -> Hyperversal it is then... no need to change the profile...

Pretty much, yeah.

DS seem to be the ones with the most potential for having a completely transcendental nature in the verse.

True, Ultimate Manifold seems to be 'Ultimate Reality' (to put it simply, it is scientific rip-off of Yog-sothoth, 'eternal unchanging incomprehensible reality whatever') and God of the Manifold is supposed to embody it.

Realm of Ideas itself needs no profile then? its only a 'place' after all.

I wouldn't assume so, unless there's a being that embodies the realm, which I don't believe there is.