Downstreamers Multiverse Type

[Lightbuster30]

So in an earlier thread, the downstreamers were offered to be 1-A based on them living in a Type IV Multiverse, which includes 1-A realms. It was ultimately rejected due to a lack of evidence of their multiverse being Type IV. However after reading their profile something struck me as odd. Their profile states that they can "create multiverses encompassing all forms of mathematics." This strikes me as significant because that is exactly what a Type IV encompasses IE: All Mathematically Possible Worlds. I believe this could be sufficient evidence of their multiverse type.

 

[Aeyu]

I already brought this up before, along with the evidence of an "Infinite Ensemble" being mentioned; the reason why 1-A was not outright accepted, although many agreed on it, was due to a lack of specific mentioning iirc.

 

[Lightbuster30]

I already brought this up before, along with the evidence of an "Infinite Ensemble" being mentioned; the reason why 1-A was not outright accepted, although many agreed on it, was due to a lack of specific mentioning iirc.

Really? Guess I didn't notice. Shame, and here I thought I had stumbled onto something new.

 

[Aeyu]

I don't agree with it; I still think they should be Likely 1-A, but it wasn't my decision, it was Azzy's.

 

[Lightbuster30]

I don't agree with it; I still think they should be Likely 1-A, but it wasn't my decision, it was Azzy's.

If it was rejected based sorely on not outright being called type iv, then that sounds kinda dumb.

 

[Aeyu]

There's a preference of literal mention over suggestion in 1-A, something which is arbitrary but nonetheless enforced.

 

[Crzer07]

Ratings below tier 2 and above 11 could stand based on the lightest suggestion but those of above 3 and below 10 are only valid on literal mention. But yeah, I agree on 1-A downstreamers that it has reached Type IV multiverse.

 

[Aeyu]

I'll take a look again and try to find any mention of Platonism in the books, because that would solidify a 1-A rating. Either that, or the thing in their AP about "encompassing all mathematics" needs to be removed, because that definitely puts them at at *least* 1-A taken literally regardless.

 

[Lightbuster30]

I'll take a look again and try to find any mention of Platonism in the books, because that would solidify a 1-A rating. Either that, or the thing in their AP about "encompassing all mathematics" needs to be removed, because that definitely puts them at at *least* 1-A taken literally regardless.

How would that change anything?

 

[Antvasima]

You should preferably ask Azathoth to contribute here, but if the mention of encompassing all mathematics is inappropriate for the current rating, it should probably be removed.

 

[Aeyu]

@Ant

I'll leave a message on his wall, but yes, I agree. Encompassing literally *all* possible mathematics (Note that I'm referring to all possible mathematically abstract systems, including "meta" levels of conceptualization) is a stretch at High 1-B, as it can be argued that not even high levels of 1-A truly do due to still possessing things like hierarchy and meta-hierarchy. Plus, I am unsure if it mentions this within the context of the books, just that they encompass "all possibility", which can be arbitrary depending on the verse afaik.

Also @Lightbuster

I would encourage you to read up on Platonic Forms, and specifically their relation to advanced, abstract maths. They are specifically, and necessarily, aspatial and atemporal objects which exist independently of conceptualization. The reason a true Type IV multiverse would be 1-A is because all mathematical existence = physical existence, including alternate systems of math that don't exist in our likely 11-or-12 dimensional String multiverse, and this would include mathematically Platonic objects.

 

[Jockey-1337]

Downstreamers stomp

 

[Lucis=the=Lumenian]

I don't agree with it; I still think they should be Likely 1-A, but it wasn't my decision, it was Azzy's.

Well, iirc, it was majority's decision (including MatthewSch), not only Azz's.

If it was rejected based sorely on not outright being called type iv, then that sounds kinda dumb.

bruh, tier 1 and above is all about statements. You can only prove 1-A through statement after all, not feats. I mean a character can be upgraded from tier 2 to tier 1 by doing absolutely nothing XD

I'll take a look again and try to find any mention of Platonism in the books, because that would solidify a 1-A rating. Either that, or the thing in their AP about "encompassing all mathematics" needs to be removed, because that definitely puts them at at *least* 1-A taken literally regardless.

How would that change anything?

it means current explanation for Downstreamers' tier should only be reserved for 'At least 1-A' tier. you know, 1-A of highest order occupied by Hajun and the like.

So the explanation should be removed if Downstreamers were to stay at High 1-B

 

[Aeyu]

@Lucis

Matt, Sera and others actually supported 1-A, but it was decided by Azathoth.

And also not specifically "At least 1-A", but 1-A in general, although yes, it could generally be considered to be high-order.

And I agree that without further context that the erroneous description should be changed.

 

[Lightbuster30]

@Lucis

Matt, Sera and others actually supported 1-A, but it was decided by Azathoth.

And also not specifically "At least 1-A", but 1-A in general, although yes, it could generally be considered to be high-order.

And I agree that without further context that the erroneous description should be changed.

So did you manage to find anything in the books, or should we close this?

 

[Lucis=the=Lumenian]

@Lucis Matt, Sera and others actually supported 1-A, but it was decided by Azathoth.

I guess I was just imagining things then...

And also not specifically "At least 1-A", but 1-A in general, although yes, it could generally be considered to be high-order.

Indeed, their 1-A form would be one of most powerful 'mass-produced 1-A' in this wiki besides lovecraft-things.

And I agree that without further context that the erroneous description should be changed.

You can use 'neverending hierarchy' and 'all logically possible universes' quotes for starters. the current tier based on its explanation sounds to be massive lowball after all :lol:

So did you manage to find anything in the books, or should we close this?

I honestly doubt Aeyu would find anything at all. Iirc there's one platonism thing in a novel written by baxter, but just because its written by same author it doesn't mean they all live in same 'verse.

 

[Antvasima]

So should we simply remove the "encompassing all mathematics" part, or replace it with something else?

 

[Antvasima]

Also, I would appreciate if we stop with all of the Downstreamers upgrade threads. They are not going to get any different conclusions than previously.

 

[Lucis=the=Lumenian]

So should we simply remove the "encompassing all mathematics" part, or replace it with something else?

I think so. just remove that part.

 

[Antvasima]

I have done so: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/index.php?title=Downstreamers&diff=2604897&oldid=2467358

 

[Aeyu]

@Ant

Well, I was going to check and see if maybe I missed any subtle definitions reading the books, but otherwise I had no intentions of upgrading them.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. No problem. Should we close this thread then?

 

[Aeyu]

Yeah, I think we can do that. If I find anything relevant, I'll make a thread for it then.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.