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Downgrade of Normal Pokemons

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FateAlbane

FateAlbane

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It has come to my attention on recent threads regarding Pokemon that common Pokemons - not even legendary ones are usually being grossly exaggerated to the point where, based on a single statement from a Pokedex file, they are seen as having massive resistances to a variety of hax or outright being considered as having immunity to them.

Such as "Gardevoir is immune to gravity based attacks" based on >> ""It apparently does not feel the pull of gravity because it supports itself with psychic power."

I'm using it simply as an example because this problem has come to my attention in this recent thread that became a complete mess precisely because of this.

So? If anyone throws a powerful attack at a wild Pokemon and they happen to have ONE Pokedex entry listing them as resistant, is the character instantly able to no sell every variation of said power, no matter the kind or scale, despite not having a single feat to back it up?

That's like saying that if a character is stated to be Omnipotent in a verse, we should take it at face value.

Or Yukari's statement of being able to manipulate any and all Boundaries.

Or Omnipotent Zen'o.

Or Nen touch. Or Reiatsu Crush. Or even Arceus himself being Tier 0 by virtue of having a skill named Omnipotent. Or all-powerful Hao Asakura. Or Noah immune to everything except Innocence. Or High 1-A Desco in Nipponverse because she transforms into Yog-Sothoth.

Here's the point: Why would Pokemon of the most common caliber be allowed to have high resistances or outright invulnerabilities, based on a single statement of a pokedex entry, when every single other verse out there has to go through massive revisions and provide feats for anything their characters have? I'd understand that for the legendaries, who have massive lore and many proofs of their power behind their feats, but I feel like a number of common Pokemon are being very overestimated as it currently is.
 
Therefore, my suggestion: Common Pokemon receive the same treatment of all other verses. Unless they can actually provide proof for their powers outside of pure pokedex entry or feats for a higher scale resistance, then they are not to be taken at face value.

Otherwise, tons of characters out there get upgraded based on statements alone.
 
1. Using the omnipotent example is rather, no offense, ridiculously horrible for obvious reasonings.

2. Its not like its a single statement. The statments in the pokedex are repeated consistently in the entire franchise and they are statements explicty explaining a pokemons true power.

Thats all ill say 4 now.
 
1. Not quite, when an Omnipotent statement is in the same level of say, a single entry and no display of a hax or resistance against another hax. It's literally "It says so, so we take it at face value". Hax have scale.

2. By all means, provide for the pokemon showing said power against a powerful opponent to the point where it would be that powerful a resistance/power or even immunity. Statements of a pokedex are not going to fly when some people want to use them in a way that "common pokemons will no sell powers of a higher scale than they were ever shown dealing with".

It's textbook definition of NLF. Common Pokemon are Not like Dialga who was proven time and again to be Time itself, or Palkia who is space. Their powers are being utterly exaggerated as it is and the justification given is always "Pokedex statement" rather than any solid proof.
 
I'll give a more elaborated response later.

For now, my opinion is that they should be given the resistance but not the immunity, unless of course, it's a statement like "X is soulless" which does warrant the immunity to soul manipulation
 
First off, Immunity shouldn't be a thing. Resistance is fine... Secondly, nothing is wrong with using dex entries. Just don't wank them. Gardevoir can have a resistance to Gravity Manipulation, not immunity.

Secondly, I don't really see the issue. We do the same for Digimon and will continue to do so. Pokedex entrees are scientific observations of actual living Pokemon. As such, they can be taken at face value. Simply put if the Pokedex implies a resistance. We give it to them. However, we don not give them immunity as that is pure NLF unless it is something like being soulless.

Being a "regular" Pokemon means nothing and is not an argument as there is nothing stating that a "regular" Pokemon cannot have some hax resistance. Just because there are no feats means nothing. Otherwise Tyranitar is no longer Mountain level, Lugia is not longer Country level, etc.

Simply put, dex entries are allowed as they are part of the primary canon. Just as long as they are not wanked. So change immunity to resistance.
 
@Kaltias I can of course, understand the types resistances, since type advantage is a mechanic present in the whole franchise. My point is that, again, both these resistances and others that are not even necessarily based on type are being exaggerated.

Point: Type resistance? Sure. But it's resistance, not immunity. Anything equal or higher in scale to the Pokemon's best showings should not be no-selled or treated as a non-factor.

Other resistances? No significant feat or proof aside from the pokedex entry, no resistance.

And I also understand the soulless part.
 
This isn't even a downgrade when only wankers (no offense) treat it like that, and it's not even specified like that in the profiles that I've carefully made to be worded so they couldn't be taken out of context like that. For example, take Golem. Even for the immunity to electricity, which is fully canon and demonstrated since 1996, is put to an extent. If Kracko from Kirby decided to just zap it, no more Golem. Gardevoir is the only case I've seen this being done for. Resistance doesn't mean immunity. Heck, last time this came up, albeit for a verve I'm not entirely fond of vs wise, I got pissed. Every resistance has a limit. I don't care if it's Dark Schneider, Link, SCP-682, Seiya, or even ZeedMilleniummon.
 
1. But thats not how this works. Like, at all. Almost any statement of Omnipotence is a huge exaggeration or hyperbole based on the fact that "omnipotence" is what we are talking about. Even Author Statements towards characters who they believe "have it" are thrown out the window here (otherwise Alien X would have been Tier 0 ages ago). There's not even a way to prove someone is tier 0 without statements that are as accurate as possible so comparing the likes of this topic with entries that explicty explain what a pokemon is, how they fight, and what their capabilities are is not a logical argument.

2. Not that simple since normal mon have almost no showings (forcing most people to rely on the pokedex in the first place) and the little showings they do get are PIS like from the anime. Franky put, from what IK, the pokedex is basically WoG as again its detaling just what the pokemon are and how strong they are and shouldnt be challenged unless something actually goes against it. If this werent the case most of us wouldnt have agreed to put Pokedex entries here at all and this isnt the first time dex entries have been given doubt.

That isnt how NLF works. None of the entries are giving these mon no limits to their capabilities and just because a statement in the dex states what a pokemon can do doesnt mean they can/cannot do more without anything else supporting it. Thats like saying Tyranitar is above Tier 7 because its stated to crush mountains casually but isnt given a limit when assuming its any higher would be actual NLF.
 
>> "Just because there are no feats means nothing."

So why is it that only Pokemon and Digimon get upgraded like that, even when it comes to fodder?
 
I remember that even having profiles for common Pokemon had quite a good ammount of controversy back when they are added. I'll be quite frank, if it was as easy to get any upgrades past for any verse out there as it seems to be for this franchise as a while, many verses out there would be way more powerful for actually needing to prove what they are stating.
 
Pretty sure most of the Tier 2 and even moreso the tier 1 have either feats or enough lore within the verse to back them up, Cal.
 
Lore, maybe. Feats, no.

Furthermore, I've put hours, if not days into the current Pokemon profiles. I'll be damned if I let them get deleted again. Sounds far worse than I mean it to...
 
For the record, I do agree with Fate that resistances shouldn't be treated as immunities.

Heck, resistances being treated as no-selling is one of my biggest pet peeves on this site. Kinda why I have a dislike for 682, the RKs and Zeed, and have only just started liking Saint Seiya (and the RKs and Zeed).
 
Because they aren't like other verses? Also define fodder. In Digimon, technically nothing is truly fodder. Also in Digimon, Official Databooks are indeed canon and contradict nothing. At most they contradict actual higher-end feats.

If a dex entree said "Kommo-o is a pokemon not bound by the concept of time." Then Kommo-o gains a resistance to Time Hax. If an dex entry said "Zoroark is a Pokemon not harmed by radiation." Then Zoroark gains a resistance to Radiation hax.

You cannot treat all verses the same. Each verse has its own rules and what not. Digimon is not Dragon Ball. Pokemon is not like Naruto. They are different and we evaluate them using their own specific system of scaling and canon.
 
@Professor 1. My point was exactly that the statements in question are being utterly exaggerated. Saying a Pokemon uses their power to deal with something does not equal "They are immune to hax related to this because the pokedex says so." That. Is on the same level of Omnipotent statements. And it is being NLF'd a lot. You were arguing yourself about Gardevoir being immune to Gravity based on that statement and immune to KS based on psychic resistance. Understand what I'm getting at? It becomes a problem when people take that one statement and treat it as some kind of ultimate unquestionable feat.

2. If they don't have feats or anything to scale to other than Pokedex entries, too bad for them. Why would they be given a power like that? Why do 99.9% of the verses need to scale from something else while Pokemon gets a free pass? That's my point here.

And it is NLF like I already explained above.
 
Point there. I can agree to that too Cal but maybe its just an error in classifcation? Because Gardevoir for example is listed in having immunity to gravity manip based on a dex entry. If we're taking high resistance over immunities maybe someone just listed it wrong?
 
We've upgraded a ton of verses off of statements alone, that aren't Pokemon or Digimon. Planet level OPM. Universal DBS (Sans Zeno and Zamasu). Literally all of Touhou tier 5 and beyond. A ton of VNs/LNs/books.
 
How is a resistance based on an official entry NLF? You are abusing the term. It's simply giving them said resistance.
 
It's not even a high resistance. Gardevoir's not that special. It's why she's normally put against people like Ryuko and Erza rather than Aizen. What's next, Ren Fuji?
 
So why don't we just change the immunity to resistance and be done with this?
 
@Dragon That opens room for exaggeration.

Pokemon Fodder: In this case, a number of Pokemon that meet the following recquirements (there are of course exceptions).

1. Has only one pokedex statement to prove a number of its abilities. 2. Does not have any impact whatsoever in the plot of the series. 3. Not a legendary. 4. Lacks feats or an accurate/precise scalling to its abilities.

Not sure about the whole Digimon point since I only brought it as an example and the verse isn't being discussed here (nor do I have any intention to discuss it), but ok.

And in regards to this:

"Kommo-o is a pokemon not bound by the concept of time." Then Kommo-o gains a resistance to Time Hax. If an dex entry said "Zoroark is a Pokemon not harmed by radiation."

I have absolutely nothing against it. My point is the following: "Not bound by the concept of time". Does that mean it resists every single variation of Time Manipulation, even those of scale higher to its best feats? No. And that's how I see it being treated lately.

"Zoroark is a Pokemon not harmed by radiation". No feats? Then a powerful radiation attack will still harm it given the chance because its resistance is not specified in scale. The case in point: People are treating these resistances as some kind of unquestionable feat that would make the Pokemon all but no sell the same kind of hax they have a resistance against based on these single Pokedex entries.
 
iirc, it was always resistance. The only time I put immunity if it was either:

Ground to Electric, Normal to Ghost (and vice versa), Flying to Ground, Steel to Poison, Fairy to Dragon, or Dark to Psychic. And even then, to an extent.
 
Like Cal said, this isn't even necessarily a downgrade. It's more like a - sorry for the pun - wake-up Call in case this happens again in the future.

Let me rephrase my intentions: Resistances are fine being listed on the profiles (even if based on a Pokedex statement), just as long as people don't go overboard on how resistant a Pokemon can be, to the point of no-selling stuff based on the entry alone.
 
IMO, immunity -> resistance, and at the lowest level we can apply their resistance to, unless proven otherwise.
 
@FateThen just request Gardevoir's Immunity to become a resistance, or let either me, Cal or SD know. It is such a simple fix. We as a site don't care for immunities that much as a whole.

This came across as a pure downgrade thread...
 
So that, if this sort of thing repeats in the future, this can be easily pointed out without generating too much discussion or derailing threads unnecessarily. That's all.
 
@Dragon Sure thing, I'll keep that in mind.

Sorry if this was any trouble, and thanks for the attention, everyone.
 
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