Downgrade for Verses With Stabilization / Sustenance Feats

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Will be going to bed in a few minutes, so I will make this brief as I was reminded to make this thread.

Basically, now with our newly made standards for it, sustenance feats are no longer assumed by default to be quantifiable or scale to a character's stats without evidence proving they do under our criteria. You now need much more evidence to get a sustenance feat in question accepted, making clear what the feat is and if it can be appropriately applied. The page is linked, but here's our new criteria for sustenance feats:

Requirement 1: Specify what exactly is being stabilized so that it is made clear what the character's sustainability is doing precisely.

Requirement 2: Prove that the stabilized structure is being directly sustained by the power of the character and not from the character's abilities, life force, existence, magical properties or any unknown connection that is independent of their statistics.

Requirement 3: Prove that the character's stabilization is comparable to the scale of the structure they are stabilizing. Preferably, it should be proven that the character's sustainability is comparable to the destruction of the structure to best show that their power rivals the destructive output of what would destroy the structure in the first place. Please keep in mind that this may vary depending on how the structure's destruction would occur. For example, if a character sustains the existence of a universe that would not be instantly or immediately destroyed when no longer supported, the power of their sustainability would not be comparable to destructive output that completely and immediately destroys a universe, and would not be sufficient enough to be given a 3-A or Low 2-C rating. However, their sustainability could be given either rating if the universe they sustain would be completely destroyed instantly or immediately without support.

Requirement 4: Prove that the power of the character's stabilization consistently scales to their regular statistics, similar to our standards for creation feats.

This thread here is to downgrade any verses where characters sustain X and get Y tier from it. If a case can be made for the given verses' characters, they should preferably be taken to their own CRT's to handle them there.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Maybe start with the alleged “viable” examples on said page. Because according to Warren the character Michael doesn’t even qualify.

 

[Armorchompy]

I'm not too knowledgeable on the verse, but I believe Cave Story might deserve a downgrade? This is the calculation.

 

[Metalballrun]

I'm not too knowledgeable on the verse, but I believe Cave Story might deserve a downgrade? This is the calculation.

More people familiar with the verse should comment.
Personally, based on how I remember the game, I agree with it being downgraded. Or at least Quote and Curly Brace should not scale to the Core, or that the Core's durability and basic attacks shouldn't be equal to the energy it uses to levitate the island in the first place.

But I'm unsure about Ballos, as I haven't beaten that boss yet.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

As for Cave Story scaling to the Core its weird. A part of me instinctively feels that "The core holding the island up" is unrelated to combat but destroying the core makes the island fall like immediately after.

 

[Armorchompy]

I mean, it falling when the core is destroyed doesn't necessarily imply the core's energy can also be used for combat just as well

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Here for Persona, since we’ve recently become the new poster boy for stabilization and creation.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Would Magolor from Kirby also be effected?

He and the verse would probably keep 4-A, but one of his supporting feats is sustaining Another Dimension.

 

[Tyri456]

Hades from Saint Seiya does not qualify either

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Hades from Saint Seiya does not qualify either

Sure Jenny.

 

[Tyri456]

Sure Jenny.

?

How does he qualify? the dimension does not get destroyed immediately so it is unquantificable.

Feel free to prove me wrong, though.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

How does he qualify? the dimension does not get destroyed immediately so it is unquantificable.

You never read Saint Seiya lol.

It starts to collapse before Hades' body even fully dissipated.

Hades dying and the underworld collapsing literally happens in 3 pages with Athena teleporting the surviving Saints back to Earth immediately after.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I saw this from an earlier response so I’ll just post it and let you guys go from there.

Saint Seiya Episode G Assassains Hades was preventing the collapse of the underworld when Zeus was destroying it all.

The Underworld was in the middle of collapse. We aren't shown anything after because the scene ends so fast

Secondly; We do know Hades created the underworld world's

Third; What happens immediately after Hades disappears is that death not longer exist. It becomes erasure

In Saint Seiya Epiosde G Assassins chapter 105 we learn that Hades was preventing the collapse of all his worlds when Zeus was actively trying to destroy it. (Albeit a nerfed Zeus)

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Yeah Saint Seiya Episode G Assassin adds a lot more context to the feat that makes it more impressive:

• The Underworld is in a shattered, half-broken state because Hades is practically dead, he is reduced to an unconscious, sleeping spirit that is keeping the underworld from fully collapsing with all of his strength
• When Zeus nukes the Underworld in one-shot and seemingly takes out Hades with it they point out that Death no longer exist, and that now all souls will simply be erased when life ends. Basically no more Afterlife and no more Reincarnation.

 

[Tyri456]

I do read Saint seiya, and hades would keep the tiering for the creation, but not for the sustaining, his example being here is wrong because we actually do not know what happen and it is not immediate, neither a complete destruction of the dimension, since the dimension (the place) itself still exists.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Hades actively created the dimensions, which if it's like an interdimensional big bang, it's a solid AP feat. And it's implied that the dimensions collapsing simultaneously happens before his death as opposed to vice verse for other verses judging by the scans Matt showed. And, he uses just as much Cosmo power in every punch he throws. And characters are strong enough to actively shake the realms just by punching if I recall reading other threads.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

his example being here is wrong because we actually do not know what happen and it is not immediate,

You cannot be serious, he tells exactly what will happen.

"But if I fall, the Underworld I created will disappear along with me... Hell, Elysium, all of it... Athena, you and the Saints will be swept away in my realm's destruction and you shall perish too."

neither a complete destruction of the dimension, since the dimension (the place) itself still exists.

This is because Hades uses all of his remaining power to stop the collapse, as shown in Assassin. The Underworld was already "destined" for Collapse and he can only keep it in a half-collapse and barely functional state now that he is weakened. The moment Zeus blasts it, the Underworld goes down instantly.

 

[SamanPatou]

Atm, I remember Xerneas having a feat of keeping the Earth rotating in PMD and Tabuu being the embodiment of subspace, but apparently this isn't used for his AP anymore.

 

[Tyri456]

You cannot be serious, he tells exactly what will happen.

"But if I fall, the Underworld I created will disappear along with me... Hell, Elysium, all of it... Athena, you and the Saints will be swept away in my realm's destruction and you shall perish too."


This is because Hades uses all of his remaining power to stop the collapse, as shown in Assassin. The Underworld was already "destined" for Collapse and he can only keep it in a half-collapse and barely functional state now that he is weakened. The moment Zeus blasts it, the Underworld goes down instantly.

Thats exaclty the point, we never see what would happen and how fast would happen since the feat itself doesnt even complete and the dimensions still exists.

The 3rd requirments states it is needed to prove it collapse immediately. So how hades can be someone used as an example here if you cant prove that? everyone here by dying destoy its dimenions, soul king too, but it got completely discarded because it doesnt happen immediately.

 

[Slacjow]

I don't like that I have to bring this out or do I? but this might nuke Dark Souls Tier 4 for good.
Dark Souls characters have a rating for sustaining a pseudo sun for thousands of years or so. Souls are directly related to strength, the stronger your soul, the stronger you are.
To sustain the sun a character with strong soul needs to sacrifice it and use as fuel for the sun, then it goes on for a thousand year or more. And this is scaled to their regular statistics.
This is basically the only Tier 4 feat in the series and nothing comes even close to this Tier. The next best AP feat is a Storm feat which is High 6-C. All other feats are Tier 8 and one is Tier 7 maybe.
Does it keep the tier with new standards?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Thats exaclty the point, we never see what would happen and how fast would happen since the feat itself doesnt even complete and the dimensions still exists.

We know how fast it is, it is immediate, we see on the panel the underworld start to collapse before Hades even fully dies.

It continues to exist in a broken state because Hades' unconscious disembodied spirit dedicates the last of his strength to keep it from collapsing.

The 3rd requirments states it is needed to prove it collapse immediately

Proven in the panel.

how hades can be someone used as an example here if you cant prove that? everyone here by dying destoy its dimenions, soul king too, but it got completely discarded because it doesnt happen immediately.

The Soul King isn't immediate, Hades is. The entire underworld, all of the dimensions that comprise it, "all of it" in Hades' own words begin to collapse immediately as he dies.

We see in Assassin that even the Boundary Between Life & Death has collapsed, the Yomotsu Hirasaka, the gateway between the world of the living and the world of the dead, is completely in ruins as well. Hades' death extends to outside the underworld proper.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I don't like that I have to bring this out or do I? but this might nuke Dark Souls Tier 4 for good.
Dark Souls characters have a rating for sustaining a pseudo sun for thousands of years or so. Souls are directly related to strength, the stronger your soul, the stronger you are.
To sustain the sun a character with strong soul needs to sacrifice it and use as fuel for the sun, then it goes on for a thousand year or more. And this is scaled to their regular statistics.
This is basically the only Tier 4 feat in the series and nothing comes even close to this Tier. The next best AP feat is a Storm feat which is High 6-C. All other feats are Tier 8 and one is Tier 7 maybe.
Does it keep the tier with new standards?

I'm no expert on the series, but I recall experts saying Dark Souls is actually the main verse where stabilization feats are legit. There's a lot more lore that appears to be in our faces and every in universe thing is 100% linear PL in that game. But I may need Dark Souls experts to testify.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I'm no expert on the series, but I recall experts saying Dark Souls is actually the main verse where stabilization feats are legit. There's a lot more lore that appears to be in our faces and every in universe thing is 100% linear PL in that game. But I may need Dark Souls experts to testify.

This is what I’ve been told pretty much. But yeah, experts on the verse would need to present the verses case

If it’s going to be a long discussion, it should go in it’s own CRT.

 

[SamanPatou]

Would Magolor from Kirby also be effected?

He and the verse would probably keep 4-A, but one of his supporting feats is sustaining Another Dimension.

@Eficiente

 

[Slacjow]

I'm no expert on the series, but I recall experts saying Dark Souls is actually the main verse where stabilization feats are legit. There's a lot more lore that appears to be in our faces and every in universe thing is 100% linear PL in that game. But I may need Dark Souls experts to testify.

There's not a lot of lore behind sustaining the sun. You literally sacrifice your soul, the sun is sustained, that's it.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

There's not a lot of lore behind sustaining the sun. You literally sacrifice your soul, the sun is sustained, that's it.

Hmm. Are you killed in the process of doing that or are you just granting the sun your energy?

 

[Eficiente]

Would Magolor from Kirby also be effected?

We don't get any statement about this aside that the state of the character's in being possessed by all the power of the Master Crown and being a manifestation the crown, however, other fellow artifacts created by the ancients have led to

• Some custom-warped space to blow up when someone with the power of one artifact absorbed was killed.
• And destroying a re-activated artifact led to all its technology on many planets to briefly deconstruct into nothing and return everything back to normal, which makes sense at glance as it's tech backfiring upon itself but part of it was just metal with nothing in it and it apparently fixed things like all the beings that were turned into cyborgs and the holes on the planets that got giant screws placed on them seen from space.

So, the 1° requirement I would assume it's covered, the 2° & 4° I believe gets covered by the character being possessed by the power of the crown & being a manifestation of it, other characters have used the crown and nothing like this happened. Another Dimension also existed way before Magolor put on the crown.

 

[Slacjow]

Hmm. Are you killed in the process of doing that or are you just granting the sun your energy?

You lose your soul and become a hollow.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

"But if I fall, the Underworld I created will disappear along with me... Hell, Elysium, all of it... Athena, you and the Saints will be swept away in my realm's destruction and you shall perish too."
.

The bolded part is pretty significant for the time frame. Athena and the God Cloth Saints should be incredibly fast like Sextillion+ or higher MFTL+ Fast.

If Hades is saying they can't escape the realms destruction despite their speed. That time frame has to be incredibly short

I forgot but Athena should have really fast reactions and should be capable of teleporting them too in a possibly slightly faster timeframe

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I forgot but Athena should really fast reactions and should be capable of teleporting them too.

Looking at the scene I don't even think she teleported them, we see them shooting into the sky like a comet indicating that Athena just flew them out of the underworld.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Forgive me for being out of the loop but why are sustenance feats no longer viable?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Forgive me for being out of the loop but why are sustenance feats no longer viable?

Go to this thread I made for the standards.

And to give clarity, sustenance feats are still very much viable here, we can still use them. The standards weren't made to throw them out, they were made to make them more scrutinized.

 

[Imaginym]

Doesn't Palkia have a Sustaining Feat for keeping Space stable?
How would this impact that, if at all, & why or why not?

 

[Eficiente]

It doesn't matter as it's not a factor in its tier.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Doesn't Palkia have a Sustaining Feat for keeping Space stable?
How would this impact that, if at all, & why or why not?

What Eficiente said. The CT sustianing time and space are very small supporting feats that hardly matter for their tier at all.

And id even argue the feats would be legit anyway since they're literally what they sustain.

 

[Ned_the_outer_god]

Would GoW be effected by this? Pretty sure they have stabilization feats

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Would GoW be effected by this? Pretty sure they have stabilization feats

GoW? You mean God of War?

 

[Ned_the_outer_god]

GoW? You mean God of War?

Yes. Isn't there some characters with stabilization feats from what I heard

 

[Planck69]

Who? I can't think of any character that's a major part of the scaling who has a stabilization feat.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I disagree

With.....?