Doubt about attacks' energy crossing universes

[RashFaustinho]

Hi, I wanted to understand something regarding the tiering system currently in use.

In this thread some users explained to me that a 2-C, in order to destroy multiple universes, has to generate at least 5 Dimensional Energy, because "they are leaving space time", or something along those lines.

I suddenly had doubts about that.

In order to generate 5D energy, shouldn't the characters be 5D themselves?

They told me that only the ENERGY they output has to be 5D, but this still doesn't convince me.

If 5 Dimensional Energy is more than infinitely powerful than any kind of 4 Dimensional energy, than shouldn't this mean that all the people that are helping with this kind of attack should be all capable of 5 Dimensional attacks?

 

[RashFaustinho]

Bump

 

[Andytrenom]

It's not as much generating "5 dimensional energy" as it is "Energy that travels across 5 dimensions"

You are destroying 4 dimensional objects scattered around 5 axes of time-space but you aren't destroying an object that is 5 dimensional itself

 

[RashFaustinho]

It's not as much generating "5 dimensional energy" as it is "Energy that travels across 5 dimensions"

You are destroying 4 dimensional objects scattered around 5 axes of time-space but you aren't destroying an object that is 5 dimensional itself

Thank you for the answer!

So wait, I don't understand another thing then. People are claiming that if someone destroys a far away universe, then they are outputting this kind of energy, and then they should be 2-C

But why is that? Can't a Low 2-C or a 3-A output an energy that is able to cross that travels across 5 dimensions?

 

[Akreious]

Because if that's the case, any sort of scaling would make the Low 2-C a flat out 2-C; Multipliers should apply if they displayed the ability to send attacks across a 5D axis

 

[Andytrenom]

The problem is that at this level, we have no clue how a blast will function and how the distance will factor into the overall strength of the blast.

When determining the threshold for 4-A, we apply something known as inverse square to determine how powerful an explosion would have to be at its source to have enough power to destroy a star a humungous distance away. We can't do that with 2-C so we are left with the gap between low 2-C and 2-C being unquantifiable

 

[Amexim]

But if you're putting out energy that travels in 5D space, wouldn't your energy be 5D? And if that is what is required to destroy two separate 4D constructs— it you need to be able to have 5D energy, which is energy that travels in 5D space, in order to destroy more than one universal space-time that are separated by 5D space, wouldn't that make you 5D and thus stronger than infinite 4D power?

 

[RashFaustinho]

I thought that what was differentiating Low 2-C from 2-C is the number of 4D universes destroyed (1 vs more than 1), not if they are able to output energy that crosses universes or not, especially when something like that cannot be calculated.

Why can't a 3-A shoot a blast that destroys all matter in another universe, since we don't know how much energy is required to travel across said universes anyway?

 

[Amexim]

Well, it wouldn't be a matter of "how much energy" to travel...

Think of a 2D being able to cross 3D space to destroy another 2D being. That's not a special power. The only way a 2D thing can travel across 3D space is if it was a 3D thing. Being 3D makes you by definition stronger than even infinite 2D power or size.

A 3-A can't fire a blast across 5D space to affect a 4D object because they and their attack only exist on 3 dimensions. From the perspective of even a 4D construct, that 3-A's attack doesn't exist, just as even a 2D thing with infinite length and width doesn't exist to us because it NEEDS depth (our 3D dimension) to be real to us. The only way this attack can be done is through had or a power that doesn't actually cross 5D space.

 

[RashFaustinho]

I'm really, really confused now.

Let's establish first that, if someone destroys a far away universe, they are NOT 5Ds, as the mod above said.

If they could output 5D energy, they wouldn't even be 2-C, they would be a 2-A.


2-C beings in order to destroy far away universes, they have to "cross" a 5-D space with their energy. How much energy we don't know, since this cannot be calculated.


Based on what andy said, to cross this space you don't have to be 5 Dimensional energy (or, again, that wouldn't be a 2-C feat, that would be 2-A). Basically the energy is... Moving? Alongisde 5D axis, and then arriving in another 3D-4D universe.


So, the question stands.

Why can't a Low 2-C do this?

Why does he have to be a multiversal 2-C?

 

[Amexim]

The only way to destroy another 4D construct (Universe) that is separate from the next 4D construct (Universe) seems to be to travel the attack through 5D space, unless I am mistaken. Think of trying to lift a drawing off of a piece of paper. Even if you could take the drawing off of the paper— ignoring the fact that you couldn't interact with it or move it because you need to transfer it from one seperate paper to another and doing so as a 3D being means grabbing it and you can't because it has no "depth" so at best from one angle you could look at it but not touch it(?)— you would STILL need to bring that drawing through 3D space to reach the 2D paper and insert it there. See?

 

[RashFaustinho]

I understood that the the attack has to cross 5D space, that's not what I'm not understanding...

What I do NOT understand is... Why does it have to be a 2-C?


2-C are 4D beings. They output 4D energy. Just like Low 2-C. It's not like they are higher dimensional beings or something like that. They are the same thing, the only difference is that one could destroy a universe, and the other can destroy from 2 up to 1000 universes together.


And always based on what the mod said, your attack doesn't have to be 5-D in order to cross 5-D space. And the amount of energy required is unknown.


So, again, why would a 2-C be required, if the energy required to travel from one verse to another is unknown anyway? What's lacking to Low 2-C compared to 2-C?

 

[Amexim]

Well, it I am wrong about it needing to be 5D, that is confusing.

Because, how would you be moving across a 5D axis and not be 5D? Dimensions are like directions, yeah? To say one can go to a destination by not traveling in the direction they need to when that destination that is only separated by a specific direction and can only be reached by going in that direction doesn't make sense, right?

Anything moving in a 5D axis has to be 5D. Thus, it's 2-A and not 2-C, otherwise the universes have to be connected on the same 4D axis. Because things that travel across 5D axis can only be 5D, and if an object is only accessible via that extra dimension, things that are not 5D can't reach it.

Say there's two papers layered on top of each other. One thing on that piece of paper on the bottom wants to get to the top, but if that thing is 2D, it can't go "UP". Those 2D sheets are seperate SBG 3D space. If the thing on the bottom managed to traverse physically from the papers and not by teleporting itself, then it HAS to be a 3D object that can go "up" right?

 

[Amexim]

Low 2-C and 2-C are separated by power and the amount of power needed to blow up another universe is unknown. That I understand now.

But how do you manage to destroy more than one universe if they're separated by 5D space. They would all have to be connected on a 4D level to destroy multiple universes with 4D Power. BUT then they're not seperate space times, which is how we define a 4D universe, right?

So, my question is, how do you destroy more than one universe WITHOUT being 5D, and if you don't need 5D power to reach a seperate universe, how do you reach it?

I suppose i'm assuming 4D universes are separated by 5D space? Well, if this is false, then that means that they occupy the same 4D plane. Isn't that...? Doesn't that mean they're still the same timeline...? Or something? Because in order to be a full universe that's 4D and it's own, it needs to be a seperate timeline. How can they occupy the same 4D— what is there 4D space between 4D objects and isn't 4D space literally time— meaning that one 4D object's space from another 4D object is only a matter of time, like, they'll share a timeline because one will just intersect with the other eventually over time?

It sounds like there needs to be 5D space between seperate space times, because United 4D space sounds like they're separated by time apart. Traveling in 4D space is traveling through time, yeah? So being separated by 4D space is being seperate by time. Meaning that, if universes are only separated by 4D space, they're separated by time only, and in the future past present sense, not seperate in timelines, because to travel from one universe separated by 4D space to another is to travel through time, as 4D space is just a difference in time from past to present to future or "whenever".

That might read confusing, but the only other thing that makes sense is that they have seperate 5D space between the universes, meaning your 4D power has to travel through 5D space (making it 5D power, otherwise it's not possible) to blow up the other universes.

Because traveling through 4D space is traveling through time, and that's just moving through the same timeline, time travel that is.

 

[Andytrenom]

Here's an important thing to note, having a certain number of dimensions is not automatically proof of transcending lower dimensional objects by greater than infinity. The reason ratings above High 3-A exist is because there are ideas about the Dimensional level of something equating to that kind of infinite superiority, which appear in fictional works reasonably often, not because such a thing is proven in physics.

Expanding out across 5 axes of movement is not High 2-A on its own, the idea that the blasts' 5-D nature would make it more than countably infinite times greater than any 4-D power is something that needs a basis from the verse itself, it's not something that can be assumed without any proof.

 

[RashFaustinho]

So, according to what has been written here, that means that the argument "if someone destroys a far away universe, it has to be 2-C" is invalid, isn't it?

 

[Andytrenom]

Why?

 

[RashFaustinho]

Why?

If 5-D power is seemingly not required to move across 5-D axes, and the amount of energy to cross universes is unknown anyway, why shouldn't a Low 2-C (or heck, even a 3-A) be capable of sending a blast to another universe, and destroy it?

 

[Andytrenom]

High 2-A power may not be required to cross the distance but that doesn't mean we suddenly have any clue how an explosion will behave when expanding across 5-D space and just how far it will have to go to reach another universe.

The energy needed to blow up multiple universes is still very much unquantifiable and for most cases there will hardly be a basis in saying that the required power is only low 2-C but sent to another universes in a manner that the space between them is made meaningless

 

[RashFaustinho]

That's why I said that the claim "If someone destroys a far away universe, it has to be (regular) 2-C" is untrue then.


Based on what you're saying, the above mentioned claim is based on nothing.

We don't know how much energy is required, we don't know how it behaves, we don't know what it takes.


Which is fine, but if that's true, that means that the "if someone destroys a far away universe, it has to be 2-C" quote is baseless. We don't know, why should it be?

Yet, people are claiming this in that thread regarding Beerus and Champa.

 

[Andytrenom]

It's not exactly baseless when the very definitio of 2-C is being able to destroy more than one universe simultaneously.

Destroying a separate universe along with the one you're in cannot be argued to be below 2-C since that goes against what 2-C means in the first place.

 

[RashFaustinho]

It's not exactly baseless when the very definitio of 2-C is being able to destroy more than one universe simultaneously.
Destroying a separate universe along with the one you're in cannot be argued to be below 2-C since that goes against what 2-C means in the first place.

The example i've made previously so far were only about destroying a (single) far universe, NOT counting the one you're in. We all agree that destroying 2 of them equals (regular) 2-C

In that specific situation mentioned in that DB thread, it's about two people breaking two universes. The feat in itself is 2-C, which is fine.

Problem is, people claim that those two fighters as well, SINGULARLY, have to be (regular) 2-C, because in order to blow up Universe 6 (the universe they are NOT in) they have to break the "dimensional walls".

But if, like we established earlier, the energy required from sending a blast from a universe to another is entirely unknown, doesn't have to be 5-D, etc. etc. Then all of this is just conjecture. Nowhere is written that in order to be (regular) 2-C you have to break dimensional walls or something like that. Only that you have to break at least 2 universes.

 

[The_King_of_Prudence]

|=universe

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I am in 1, and I destroy 5, while leaving 1 through 4 in tact. That's what you're asking about, right? That is Universal+ attack potency, and Low Multiversal range.

 

[RashFaustinho]

|=universe
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I am in 1, and I destroy 5, while leaving 1 through 4 in tact. That's what you're asking about, right?

Yeah, pretty much

Having a clear answer on how such a feat should be considered would greatly help!

 

[The_King_of_Prudence]

That is Universal+ attack potency, and Low Multiversal range.

Just to be sure that you see it.

 

[Amexim]

I disagree that being 5D doesn't and should not guarantee you being stronger than infinite 4D power, but if that's what the wiki says then it be like that. My only issue is that the same can be said for infinite 3D power for 4D characters.