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Doom: Statistics changes

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Well, I did above, but I will repeat. Although, I don't think that language was quite necessary.

BFG was calc'd at Town level, scales to the durability of various bosses; including Cyberdemon and Spider Mastermind. Also scales to Doomguy's striking strength with Berserker or Praetor Armor as well as his durability and Bosses AP. Might scale to Gauss cannon as well.

Doom 3 Marine needs his own profile, mentioned by you in that other thread; he's got pretty much the same stats, but he has a slightly different arsenal; Soul Cube and Artifact was limited to Doom 3, but they still have Town level AP scaling from BFG and Cyberdemon.

Mid tiers such as Baron of Hell are Room level due to taking hits from Rocket Launchers and via sheer size, that's one the ones being questioned and might get an upgrade.

Weaker tiers such as imps and infected Marines are Street level to Wall level due to taking hits from pistols and everything, but are easily killed by base Doomguy's punches.
 
Oh, and there's also the current state of the verse on this wiki in general, what with it lacking a bunch of the major demons that appear in the series. I'll probably be adding profiles for those once we've managed to un-wreck the verse's scaling.

I've gone and contacted LordXcano and Zeedmillenniummon89 with requests for their help. Whether or not they agree is up to them, but if they do, we should have a better chance at finishing this properly. I see a couple of others under the verse page's Supporters section, but I haven't seen any of them active before now, so I haven't sent any messages to them yet.
 
-Vey Low Tiers (Possesed Workers/Engineers/Scientist): Possibly/At most 9-C (Capable of tearing apart humans, but is unknow if this was made in groups.) -Low High(?) Tier (Possesed Soldier/Unwilling): 9-C, likely higher (Far stronger than other Possed Humans, capable of woundig Doomguy) -Mid Tier (Imps/Pinkies and Variations/Cacodemons/Baron of Hell/Hell Knights/Hell Razers/Lost Souls/Revenant/Prowlers/Summoner): 9-A to possibly 8-C (Able to scorch and desintegrate normal Human bodies, capable of harming and mortally woundig Doomguy) -High Tier (Bosses, Cyberdemon/Spidermastermind/Hell Guards): At least 8-C, likely higher (Capable of One-Shotting Doomslayer with a Maxed Praeton suit, far superior to all other demons) -Top Tier (Doomslayer/Doomguy): 9-C with Standart Weaponry to 8-C with Heavy Weaponry (His Pistol is stronger than his real life counterpart, weapons like the Gauss Cannon, Rocket Launcher and Super Shotgun are capable of killing most Demons in a few shots), At least 7-C with Berserker and BFG 9000/BFG (Capable of producing this amount of energy, blowed up the entire Head of the Spidermastermind in one shot)

I am gonna do some homework so I would finish the revision later.
 
Possessed humans should be at least 9-C due to taking hits from pistol shots. Possessed soldiers and imps are 9-B as they can harm base Doomguy and can withstand a couple shotgun blasts. Disintergrating humans is a 9-A feat also, but mid tiers can withstand RPG's so they' at least 9-A either way. All the bosses are going to be upgraded to 7-C on both AP and durability as not only can they withstand the BFG, but they're capable of trading blows with each other. Doomguy/Doomslayer when he has Berserker or Praeter Armor will also have 7-C Durability as well as AP due to being able to punch Cyberdemons to death not to mentioned Newton's third law scales durability to striking strength. Pistol would be 9-C of course, Super shotgun and Rocket Launcher I can agree are 9-A. Guass Cannon would be 9-A at bare minimum as it oneshots all the mid tiers; and it's almost as strong as the BFG, so I'm leaning towards 7-C for that weapon.
 
Actually...when completely ignoring game mechanics, Praetor Suit Doomguy being 7-C makes a good amount of sense, since the lore of DOOM 4 (as I'm reading it on the DOOM wiki) paints him as being a ridiculously powerful warrior that none of the forces of Hell could defeat, and also tells us that they were only able to stop him by separating him from the suit and sealing them both. In-game, Glory Kills (which work on every enemy, even boss tiers) show him mutilating these demons to a ridiculous degree, and being that those are treated like mini-cutscenes, this works as gameplay-and-story segregation. Also, even with the Praetor Suit, Berserk powerups still show his strength being increased, since he goes from killing every demon with his physical attacks to completely obliterating most of them with mere strikes.

Pistol being 9-C, Shotgun being 9-B and Super Shotgun/Rocket Launcher being 9-A all work for me. Those can be explained easily enough just by comparing them to their real-life counterparts. Baron should be at least 9-A due to surviving multiple rockets in every incarnation, and all of the other higher tiers ought to be 9-A due to dying from only a few rockets. I don't know much about the Gauss Cannon, so I can't comment on that.

This is coming together nicely.
 
If by normal Doomguy, you mean without any weapons or power ups from the original Doom? He would likely be in the 9-B to 9-A range.
 
My guess? Likely high-end 9-B physically, but potentially 9-A. At the very least somewhere between 9-A and 8-C in the durability category when given maxed-out health/armor. (200/200)
 
Also, when we make the new profile for DOOM 3's Doomguy, he should probably have similar stats to Classic Doomguy, since (from what I can remember) his stats in relation to the demons are more or less the same, and also because that's the game where we first see the Cyberdemon being able to kill him in a single stomp.
 
7-C Bosses have very vague feats for AP, isnt stated that they could trade blows, Berserker Doomguy can die from normal damage from other enemies (Like an Imp) so no 7-C Dura. Being capable of killing enemies with normal blows is In-Game, there is no real way to suport it, any enemie can die with various punches even If they are 3 Tiers above, is pure in-game, the Glory Kill cant suport this tipe of feat since you need to leave enemies in a deplorable state to "Glory kill them" no to mention that Doomguy uses their weapons or bodyparts except for the Spidermastermind, who is worst since BFG+Super Weakend+Weak spot with alredy a mortal wound.
 
I could argue that imp damaging Berserker Doomguy is game mechanics, not the other way around about Doomguy killing bosses with physical blows; especially with Berserker or Praeter Armor. Durability should always scale you your striking strength unless your arm explodes into a million pieces every time you throw a punch; that's how Isaac Newton's third law works. Casually ripping off body parts of the bosses definitely qualifies for his striking strength scaling to his durability. Additionally, Berserker does still grant him invulnerability to all enemy projectiles, so I see no reason not to have Town level durability; although it would only be when he has Berserker or Praeter Armor. The bosses still have 7-C AP due to one, due to Doomguy's durability being enhanced when her has either of those power ups, and two isn't stated that the bosses can trade blows? It has been demonstrated that they can.

Obviously, normal punches or pistols damaging bosses is just game mechanics, but the BFG damaging them isn't. It also only takes Berserker Doomguy only a few punches to kill Cyberdemon or Spider Mastermind in the first 2 Doom games. And of course, there was even some lore that mentioned Doom Slayer with the Praeter Armor was considered unstoppable and needed to be sealed away mentioned above.
 
^Adding to that, almost all of the Glory Kills are things that would be impossible to do if he didn't have strength on-par with/greater than the enemies' durability, even if said enemy were in a weakened state. Just coming from a logical standpoint here, even if you beat someone until they can't move, you can't physically crush their head unless you have the strength to do that to begin with.

Apparently, through the data logs and other bits of lore within DOOM 4, we learn that by the time in which the game takes place, he's been dominating these demons in combat, fighting them across eons of time. It's all left fairly vague (likely something the company did on purpose) but suffice to say, he'd have never lasted anywhere near that long if it only took a few hits from a Baron in order to take him out.
 
-You can still deliver punches of bigger magnitude without your arms been destroyed, Deku, Ikki, all of this characters can do something that their boddy isnt capable of fully taking, you need to lower enemies to a state were you can one-shot them with any weapon, the Praetor armor is definitly not 7-C, at best 8-C, likely higher no to mention that as I state he uses partes of their bodies, see Mr Incredible vs Omnidroid in the last part of the Incredibles, is the same thing here, he uses the Cyberdemon's horn and the Hell Guard's staff to kill them, yes he rip the Horn but that doesnt mean higher Striking Strenght, you can lower a character to the point of riping his guts with your pinky finger. And the Imp and other enemies being able to kill you is as In-game as the Invulnerability to projectiles, there is no evidence of 7-C Dura. for Berserker, If it wasnt game mechanic they should have been remove the damage taken similarly to invulnerability, even If the lore mentions something as the Praetor suit being invencible is of course do to the fact that It can adapt to the Hazards of Hell, not that his resistances evolves to a gigantic level comparable to the Cyberdemon, and the Classic DOOM feats are inconsistent, a Baron of Hell tanking a BFG Blast?, Punches are 8-C without external amps.
 
Forgot to mention that when the Praetor shields break he can take any damage between 8-C to 7-C without any problem.
 
Generals changes that we can agree: Unmaker: At least 7-C, likely higher against Demons Unknowun against Humans Spidey and Cyber: Remove 8-B Dura.
 
A Baron doesn't tank a BFG blast, though. It was already clarified that the lowest-end of the BFG's normal damage intervals is enough to one-shot a Baron with damage to spare. Also, using the Cyberdemon's horn to obliterate its head in one swing still requires force on-par with/greater than the Cyberdemon's durability. Otherwise, it wouldn't matter what melee weapon he wielded; it would barely even draw blood.

We may need more input on this, but I'm in favor of what we have here. It seems like enough evidence, especially since the lore's implications aren't just that he was fighting the demons for countless years, but that he was also kicking the crap out of them the entire time.
 
Saying that Doomguy doesn't have Town level durability just because imps can damage him is like saying Mario doesn't have Large Star level+ durability because he can get damaged by Goombas. Also, the fact that Doomguy can rip off their horns is proof that his muscular strength would have to be at least on par and possibly stronger than Cyberdemon horns. Also, I think you missed the point about Newton's third law; Berserker Doomguy still had is arms and not a single broken bone in those arms when he punches Cyberdemons to death; therefore, his durability scales. Donkey Kong still has Country level durability due to the fact that his arm was still in tact when he punched the moon of orbit. Additionally, Town level striking strength combined with only Large Building level durability would theoretically mean he'd lose more than just his arm if he punch. If someone's striking strength was that much greater than their AP, every punch they throw would be a suicide attack.

Back to Doom 4, the fact is, Doomguy has been fighting demons inside Hell for centuries without the need to eat, drink, or sleep. That says alot about his stamina let alone the rest of his stats. The fact is, whether or not it's his own strength or the Praeter Armor enhancing it, he is easily comparable to Cyberdemon through physical strength alone at this point.

As for Barons of Hell taking hits from BFG blast, they only took the casual shots, not the charged ones; which easily have 7-C AP. And of course, the bosses scale to it, as they can withstand even the charged shots, and the Berserker and Doom Slayer's striking strength scale to them in turn. And Newton's third law proves that durability of Berserker and Doomslayer as well as the Bosses AP scales.
 
MrKingOfNegativity said:
A Baron doesn't tank a BFG blast, though. It was already clarified that the lowest-end of the BFG's normal damage intervals is enough to one-shot a Baron with damage to spare. Also, using the Cyberdemon's horn to obliterate its head in one swing still requires force on-par with/greater than the Cyberdemon's durability. Otherwise, it wouldn't matter what melee weapon he wielded; it wouldn't barely even draw blood.

We may need more input on this, but I'm in favor of what we have here. It seems like enough evidence, especially since the lore's implications aren't just that he was fighting the demons for countless years, but that he was also kicking the crap out of them the entire time.
Click to expand...
-Not really, remember F=ma, Doomlsyer takes a swing at the head with the horn, and even the Psitol with 3 or 4 shots can finish him in Glory Kill state. -There is very vague info. to upgrade them no to mention that we need a Buerau confirmation and more than two people agreeing on very avgue info. and again If we scale Doomslayer to 7-C that means that Imps who can damage him even in late-game are 7-C snce the start.
 
So, can somebody summarise your conclusions here?
 
-Way different scaling, the Imps are still on Doomguy's level even in the end game, he needs to evade rockets from them and Revenants, he knows those weapons still can damage him at tha point, there are people capable of moving planes for meters but that doesnt mean they can destroy them in singular punches and as I mention the Glory Kill leaves them weak enough to die in just a couple of hits, the Goomba analogie is wrong there is a treath comenting his and Koopa's respective level as of now.

-That gives him stamina and experince but fighting 3 different types of enemies > Battling the same ones for centuries.

-The Barons of Hell arent 7-C they are ligues below Cyberdemons, and his Berserker stats are hardly 7-C except for AP, he still strugles to rip apart some pieces of his enemies even with Berserker.
 
Antvasima said:
So, can somebody summarise your conclusions here?
Click to expand...
-7-C AP with Berserker, Dura. still debating.

-New renders for Cacodemon (See above).

-New summarie for Doomguy and better tabber clasification.

-Separete DOOM 3 Main Character for a new page.

-MORE PAGES!!!
 
@Ant

Cyberdemons and Spider Mastermind are 7-C due to taking hits from BFG.

Berserker is 7-C do to punching Cyberdemons to death; also scales to durability via Newton's third law.

This in turn scales to Cyberdemon and Spider Mastermind's AP.

Doomguy will have a Doomslayer/Doom 4 key in which he scales to the bosses naturally; both AP & Durability.

Cacodemons and Barons of Hell are 9-A due to taking hits from Rocket Launchers and Super Shotguns.

The Doom Marine from Doom 3 should get his own profile at some point; will have similar stats to Doomguy's original key, but certain weapons like Soul Cube and the Artifact will need to be moved to Doom 3 character's profile.

Unmaker is at least 7-C against demons scaling from BFG.

@MrKing might have more.
 
Me and Medeus seem to agree on this.

  • Boss tier demons (Cyberdemon, Spider Mastermind, Hell Guards, etc.) Should be 7-C via reliably taking hits from the BFG9000 (which has a Town level calc) as well as being able to kill each other.
  • Classic Doomguy with Berserker enhancements should scale to the bosses via being able to kill them all in a fair number of Berserked hits. This would put him at a lower end of Town level than the bosses. Without any amps, he should be within the 9-B to 9-A range via scaling to the mid and high-tier demons. (See below)
  • DOOM 4's Doomguy with the Praetor Suit should directly scale beyond the bosses due to Glory Kills showing that he is capable of physically mutilating them with his bare hands, as well as in-game lore statements that none of the demons were able to defeat him, that he fought against them 'across eons of time', and that the only way they finally managed to stop him was by sealing him away. This would put him at solid Town level amongst the strongest shown entities in the verse.
  • Fodder enemies such as Former Humans and Imps should be placed at 9-B due to taking normal shotgun blasts. Possessed humans are weaker and should only scale to pistol shots, making them 9-C.
  • Mid-tier and high-tier demons up to and including the Baron of Hell should scale to 9-A due to taking/surviving hits from a man-portable rocket launcher. The 'Super Shotgun' should also scale to 9-A, as it does comparable damage.
  • The Gauss Cannon is at least 9-A due to one-shotting mid tier enemies. Medeus believes it to be Town level due to reliably harming boss tier demons and being one of the three strongest weapons in DOOM 4.
  • Lower tiers (Humans, Imps, etc) harming Doomguy should be disregarded much in the same way that Goombas harming Mario should be disregarded, as it's pure game mechanics and is contradicted by far better showings both in-game and during cutscenes/Glory Kills.
I may have missed something, but this seems to be the gist of it. KarmodF disagrees with most of these, however.
 
You cannot do the 7-C until more people debate, for the best, leave some renders for the existing pages, here is very late I want to take a good nap.
 
I'm fine with waiting for more input if that's what's necessary. I'm merely stating our stances on the situation.

Me and Medeus are in favor of the scaling revisions we both just outlined. KarmodF opposes them. Numbersguy commented on the thread earlier saying saying he agrees with the BFG and the Unmaker scaling to the bosses, but he hasn't said anything else since that point.
 
So should I start making the adjustments now then? Also, once I'm done revising our current pages, I can get to work creating new ones for DOOM 3's Doomguy and the more iconic enemies we're currently missing.
 
You can probably adjust the profiles accordingly, yes.
 
Alright. I'll start on that once I'm finished revising Randall Flagg's page.
 
Antvasima said:
@MrKingOfNegativity

I think that these suggested revisions seem to make sense, and it is unlikely that you will get more participants if they haven't contributed already.
Click to expand...
You are acepting this too fast, Ant., I really want to debate more but I really want to take a break.
 
I understand your concerns and respect your opinion, but one of your arguments kinda violates Newton's third law; particularly, the Berserker power up one.

Anyway, the majority still seems to agree with the upgrades. And at the very least; the changes everyone agrees on, such as Berserker striking strength, Unmaker, and the act that the Bosses have strait up Town level as opposed to a variable durability rating will be made. The others, we'll likely do too, but may undo them if there are other reasonable objections made. But so far, I don't think there are any solid objections.
 
I can start working on the profiles now. I do agree that we should leave this open in case anyone else has something to add, though.
 
You could ask Numbersguy and LordXcano to evaluate this first though.
 
I made the changes accordingly, but we can leave the thread open in case other members have any concerns or if there are other profiles I missed. I cleaned up misleading descriptions in the process.

I suppose we'll get around to creating new profiles, including the Doom 3 Marine rather soon.
 
Technically we were supposed to wait, I think...

EDIT: I'll probably need to come behind you and add to the pages' justifications, also. If we do get the okay on this, we need to make it clear that Doomguy's DOOM 4 physicals are supported by in-game lore, and we need better/less vague justifications/descriptions for the monsters as well.
 
You do need to add justification/explanations to the statistics, yes.
 
Should I go and clean up the profiles? Or should I wait for a response from one of the others?
 
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