Doom: Statistics changes

[MrKingOfNegativity]

If the Cyberdemon is capable of tanking numerous blasts from a BFG (which was calced to Town level), and Doomguy is capable of killing it with his fists via Berserker, shouldn't that put his Berserker Striking Strength above Large Building level? Generally speaking, even the strongest Large Building level attacks do little to phase beings with Town level durability, so the current placement doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

EDIT: Thread now encompasses all of the DOOM profiles on the wiki, since the scaling for all of them looks like it needs to be revised.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I agree with this, quite a few Doom tiers need better justifications in general.

 

[Antvasima]

I also think that this seems reasonable.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'll suppose we still need more community input? I also notices this would affect his durability and Cyberdemon's AP.

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

The DOOM profiles in general are just a mess right now. I saw another revision thread that came right after I made this one, and it basically addressed the majority of what was wrong with the verse's current scaling.

We should probably get more input on this, though. As much as I like the franchise, my own knowledge on the DOOMverse kind of sucks, and judging from the state of all the profiles, this problem extends to more than two characters/etc. in the verse.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I could highlight the thread for more input.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Seems to make sense.

 

[Hizack123]

I support this, i play some of doom game so i will help as much as i can.

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

I refreshed myself on some of the old DOOM/DOOM II stuff I used to be familiar with. As far as my knowledge of DOOM goes, this is what I've managed to remember:

• The CyberDemon and the Spider Mastermind are the only demons currently on the wiki who can take multiple hits from the BFG. Every other demon/monster gets one-shot completely.
• Doomguy himself can't survive a direct blast from the BFG in Multiplayer, not even with fully maxed-out stats.
• A Berserk Pack gives Doomguy the power to one-shot most enemies in a single hit, with the only exceptions to this that I can remember being the Cyberdemon, the Spider Mastermind and the Baron of Hell.
• The Cyberdemon can literally stomp Doomguy into paste with one hit, and a direct hit from one of its rockets is enough to bring a maxed-out player down to almost no health/armor. The Spider Mastermind can also mulch Doomguy in just a few seconds with its chaingun. P╠Âr╠Âo╠Âv╠Âi╠Âd╠Âe╠Âd╠ ╠Ât╠Âh╠Âe╠ ╠Âp╠Âl╠Âa╠Ây╠Âe╠Âr╠ ╠Âi╠Âs╠ ╠Âa╠ ╠Âm╠Âo╠Âr╠Âo╠Ân╠ ╠Âa╠Ân╠Âd╠ ╠Âd╠Âe╠Âc╠Âi╠Âd╠Âe╠Âs╠ ╠Ât╠Âo╠ ╠Âs╠Ât╠Âa╠Ân╠Âd╠ ╠Âs╠Ât╠Âi╠Âl╠Âl╠ ╠Âl╠Âo╠Ân╠Âg╠ ╠Âe╠Ân╠Âo╠Âu╠Âg╠Âh╠Â.╠Â
• Infighting (read: fighting between demons after one damages the other on accident) shows us that the Cyberdemon and the Spider Mastermind are capable of killing each other. It also shows us that Cybie can kill a Baron of Hell with five direct rockets, as well as tank hits from several of them at once.

Basically, this puts Cybie and Mastermind somewhere within solid Town level range via the current BFG calc. Baron of Hell should probably be either Small Town level or low-end Town level, since Cybie wrecks it in just a few hits. The Hell Knight is somewhere below that (since it's a weaker version of the Baron), and maxed-out Doomguy should probably be at least one class below Cybie since a direct hit from one of its rockets is enough to completely brutalize him.

...Yeah, that's all I got.

 

[FTW395]

@MrKingOfNegativity

• The Baron Of Hell can also survive the BFG Ball in the original Doom games.

• Doomguy can technically also kill a cyberdemon with his fists without a berserk powerup, but that will take a looooooooong time.

• Doomguy can't one shot most monsters with berserk pack, the only ones he can one shot are the: Doomimp, the zombies, the pinky and a lost soul.

This applies if you're talking about the original games only though. I don't know about Doom 4.

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

@FTW395

This info is helpful. Thanks. I haven't played DOOM 4, so while there's a tidbit or two I got from a couple of D3/4 videos, most of this is based on the old games so far. Still, it's been a few years since I was in touch with the original games and all of their intricacies, so any info is welcome.

Doomguy being able to punch a Cyberdemon to death without Berserk should probably be treated as an outlier though, especially since it takes him an incredibly long time to do so. At best, that's like someone chipping away at a large tree with a machinegun.

 

[MJF6219]

This all makes sense since Doomguy, Spider mastermind, and the Cyberdemon can all harm each other. I noticed in the cyber demons doom wiki it tells you how many shots it takes to kill the cyber demon with nearly every weapon including Doomguy's fists.

It states that is takes 371 punches to kill a cyber demon who can take anywhere from 2-4 BFG9000 shots, and one BFG shot was calc'd at

28 kilotons which equals 28,000 tons of TNT and the cyber demon can take 2-4 of these so 28'000 x 2 = 56,000 divided by 371 = 150 tons of TNT per Doomguy punch.

28,000 x 4 = 112,000 tons divided by 371 = 301 tons of TNT per Doomguy punch.

EDIT: This actually goes hand and hand with what MrKingOfNegativity said which was "Doomguy should probably be at least one class below Cybie since a direct hit from one of its rockets is enough to completely brutalize him."

Well, hope this helps at all.

 

[Antvasima]

That might fall under Game Mechanics.

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

Yeah, it seems like a game mechanics thing. Logically speaking, someone whose strength is that far below Cybie's durability isn't going to kill it by hitting it with his bare fist, no matter how many times he punches it. There's also the fact that (in the old games) Doomguy can't kill a Former Human in one punch despite being able to do so with a single shotgun blast, which shouldn't be anywhere near 150 tons of TNT. That alone makes the damage system unreliable as far as this whole thing goes.

The DOOM Wiki might be something worth looking into, though. From what I remember, it may or may not have the damage numerics for all of the weapons in the games, and with the profiles telling us how many shots per weapon are required to take down each monster, the wiki might give us an idea of which weapons each one can reliably survive.

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

I did some digging around on the DOOM wiki and I found some bits that might be useful.

• The Spider Mastermind's page says it's slightly weaker than the Cyberdemon and usually loses in a confrontation with it unless there's outside intervention.

• The Cyberdemon's page says its rockets are the exact same as the player's. It also says that both it and the Mastermind only take direct hit damage from rockets. (Though that may just fall under game mechanics and as such might not be useful for anything.)

• According to the Fist and Rocket Launcher pages, a punch from a Berserk Doomguy is slightly stronger than a rocket from the Rocket Launcher, but it lacks the additional splash damage. The former also shows that every enemy from the Revenant beyond can take at least one hit from either without dying.

• The page for the BFG confirms what I said earlier; a direct hit is enough to one-shot any enemy in the game, with the exception of the Spider Mastermind (if it's lucky) and the Cyberdemon.

Whether or not any of this helps us out depends on how much of it we can separate from game mechanics. Seems like there's a lot to work with, though. I forgot just how in-depth that wiki is with its info.

 

[FTW395]

• Well technically the Cyberdemon/Spidermastermind are immune to any splash damage that can be generated. No idea if that's game mechanics but probably it is.

• Actually the Spidermastermind tends to win more due to it's ability to stun the cyberdemon with his super chaingun. To be fair I'd say they beat eachother evenly.

• The Spidermastermind can indeed quite easily be one-shotted by a BFG, but I think it's impossible for the cyberdemon. Though maybe the total sum of all the damage released by the BFG could one-shot it, in game it's impossible.

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

• They're immune to splash damage, yes. The only splash they aren't immune to is the splash generated by the BFG. (If the wiki is to be trusted.) We could potentially chalk that up to the weapon working differently from the rocket launcher, but I dunno.

• I wouldn't know about which one wins more often, since I've only ever seen 2-3 videos of them fighting. (One ended in a draw, one ended in the Mastermind's death, and the third ended in the Cyberdemon's death.) As far as the data goes though, the Mastermind has lower health, which in this context would equate to weaker durability.
• All I meant by this was that the two of them are the only ones who have any chance at surviving a direct hit from the BFG. Cybie can take a minimum of two hits, while Mastermind can only take a maximum of two. Everything else in the game gets killed in one hit regardless of how much damage is generated by it.

It seems like the BFG in general is the most powerful thing here, with even its weakest possible damage output being enough to cripple the two strongest monsters in the game.

 

[FTW395]

Your third point is wrong a Baronofhell can survive a BFG Blast, The spidermastermind can survive 3 BFG Blasts and a Cyberdemon 5. The BFG has 2 components that deal damage: The ball which does a consistent 800 hp of damage and the tracers which the total amount of damage depends on how you fire the BFG.

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

The wiki page (from what I can tell) assumes the weakest and strongest possible damage values generated by a direct hit from the thing, and both tables show that a direct hit kills a Baron. There's also a couple of damage charts, and the smallest number for the low-end chart (20 tracers) is 1400 points, which is a lot higher than the Baron's HP.

In addition to that, I've played the old games numerous times, and I don't remember ever directly hitting a Baron with a BFG projectile and having it survive. Even if it did survive and every single tracer missed, losing 800 out of 1000 HP in one hit would be the equivalent of getting hit so hard that you can barely move afterwards.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I have some pretty decent knowledge on the verse, but I will summarize the Town level stuff. Yes, the BFG is calc'd at 7-C, so that part is good. Cyberdemon iirc, can take up to 3 hits from the BFG, so their durability scales; and I believe Spider Mastermind also does. Doomguy with Berserker or Artifact is capable of trading blows with Cyberdemon, so it would scale to his striking strength and durability, but only when he has either of those items. It would also scale to Cyberdemon and maybe Spider Mastermind's AP with physical blows and Striking Strength.

I also think certain weapons such Soul Cube and Unmaker should also scale to the BFG. In Doom 3, the Soul Cube is also capable of killing Cyberdemon in three hits; and the Unmaker is actually stronger than the BFG, but it has a weakness in that it only works on demons from Hell. A proper rating for Unmaker would be something like, at least Town level against demons. And then we should have a note saying that the Unmaker can only harm demons.

 

[Numbersguy]

I agree with Medeus. The BFG will scale to the bosses only and the Unmaker should scale to the BFG because it does just as much damage.

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

@Medeus

I agree with the Cyberdemon and the Spider Mastermind having Town level durability, since they're the only ones in the game with any chance of surviving a hit from the BFG. (With the Cyberdemon being capable of surviving multiple hits.) Their AP with their respective weapons should also scale to each other-- albeit on the lower end-- since they can trade shots and are reliably capable of killing each other. At worst, their AP with weapons should be Small Town level.

Doomguy's Berserk punches should probably be low-end Town level or Small Town level, as well as rockets fired from the Launcher. The rockets are literally the same projectiles that Cybie's arm cannon fires, and Doomguy's punches with the Berserk Pack are comparable. The bits about the Soul Cube and Unmaker make sense, also. (I actually forgot about the Unmaker until you said something about it.)

Now we just need to figure out where to place baseline Doomguy and the weaker/mid-tier enemies.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Well, the weaker weapons doing minimal damage to the bosses I think should be treated as merely game mechanics; Goombas don't scale to Mario for the very same reasons. However, Doomguy's natural physical attacks without power ups might get a slight upgrade, but not too high. He still gets oneshotted by Cyberdemon's hoof stomps so anything higher than let's say 8-B is too high, and he normal punches damaging them still seems like game mechanics. BFG was calc'd at 28.75 Kilotons, so even if Berserker or Artifact Doomguy was roughly 5 times weaker, he would still reach the baseline for Town level. I can agree that even with those power ups, he's still weaker than Cyberdemon or the BFG, but I still think he should still be at least half as powerful as the BFG; he still does like moderate damage to CD. Additionally, the Berserker actually makes him virtually invulnerable to all in game projectiles. So, 7-C with those power ups seems plausible. Also, the Barons of Hell are still at least, 9-A via sheer size, so that might scale to Doomguy's base form.

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

Yeah, bullet weapons harming Town level characters seems too ridiculous to use. Like I said before, the damage system isn't reliable enough to use on its own, since weapons that shouldn't harm certain entities just...do. (And vice-versa, to an extent)

That last bit reminds me, though! I've heard that DOOM 4's protagonist is heavily implied to be the same exact space marine from the classic games, and there's a note about that on the protagonists' page on the DOOM wiki. Maybe we could use the Glory Kills and cutscenes from DOOM 4 (within reason) to help gauge physicals?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yeah, with the exception of Doom 3, all of the protagonists are the same character. The Marine from Doom 3 should probably have his own profile, but he'd still have pretty much the same statistics; just a slightly different arsenal is his only combat difference.

For example, Doom 3 is the only game where we has the Soul Cube, but then he doesn't have the Artifact or the Unmaker. They both still have the BFG though.

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

That makes sense. We might need to make a page for D3's protagonist in that case, since he's not the same character and has a couple of different weapons of his own.

I'm sure there's a clip on YouTube of all the Glory Kills in the game. Aside from the lower classes like the Former Humans and the Imps (which are most definitely not above Street or Wall level, since the more mundane firearms are enough to put them down in a few hits at most), we should be able to scale some of the other demons downwards from baseline Doomguy's Glory Kills.

Better weapons like the Plasma Rifle could probably be scaled to the mid-tier/high-tier monsters like the Hell Knight, the Cacodemon and the Baron. Some monsters should scale to each other as well, since a number of them have similar stats.

EDIT: This brings to my attention just how few of the demons have profiles on this wiki. Might need to work on that once we have the verse's scaling fixed.

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

Found a video.

There's a bit of a problem, though. Mangling the lower to mid-tier demons makes enough sense, but some of these kills are on monsters that are clearly physically superior to Doomguy, including the Cyberdemon. These are non-Berserk kills as well. What do we do with these?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Well, he doesn't have the Berserker, but he does still have the Artifact all throughout Doom 4 iirc. The artifact refers to his suit that greatly enhances his strength which he wears all throughout Doom 4.

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

Huh. If that's the case, we might need a new key for his profile. That's the only way I can see us properly clarifying why he's capable of mutilating a Town level demon with his bare hands in that game.

Still, this doesn't much explain how we scale the other enemies. The weakest ones are pretty easily written off as Street/Wall level, but the rest?

EDIT: I looked for the Artifact on the DOOM wiki and found something unrelated from DOOM 3. I think the suit you're referring to is this...

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Ah, I'm actually not too familiar with the more recent Doom games such as 3 and 4, but I am close friends with people who are. Been along time since I played Doom 3, and haven't played Doom 4; though I've seen speed runs and stuff, that counts for something.

Anyway, the Artifact is still 7-C along with Soul Cube and should be on Doom 3 Marine's profile when it gets made. But yeah, Praetor Suit should be added to the main Doomguy's profile and as a separate key seems good.

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

That seems like it'll work. Idk whether or not the Praetor Suit is what gives Doomguy his ridiculous strength boost in DOOM 4 (the wiki doesn't say), but a separate key seems mandatory regardless.

I also ran into a video of the boss battles in 4, and in those, both Cybie and Mastermind seem a lot tougher. They're both shown taking BFG shots without their health getting completely wasted like before. (a single shot is enough to stun them for a bit, though) This is also the game our BFG calc is primarily based on, so maybe we should make new keys for them as well?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

That might also be game mechanics, but I don't might at least Town level for Doom 4 incarnations. I also noticed that he still uses the BFG in Spider Mastermind's mouth to finish him off in that video. Anyway, if you take Sephiroth for example, even though it takes many many hits to take him out, the protagonists do scale. So it's less about how many hits it takes to kill an enemy, but more about, if a character can take at least 1 hit an still stand up to fight, durability scales, and if an attack can at least damage and or phase a character, AP scales to durability. BFG still phases bosses even though it only does little damage, so straight up Town level durability seems fine.

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

That makes sense. Forgive me if these are novice questions; I'm not used to the ins and outs of scaling game characters, let alone doing so when there's only one calc to share between the lot of them.

As far as I can tell, this is what we have so far:

• Fodder Tier (Former Humans, Imps, etc): Either Street level or Wall level via damaging each other and surviving shots from lower-tier/bullet weapons, but being otherwise completely helpless against anything above a mid-range shotgun.
• Boss Tier (Cyberdemon, Spider Mastermind, etc): Town level in the original games via surviving the BFG and scaling to each other. At least Town level in DOOM 4 due to appearing stronger than their previous incarnations.
• Doomguy: Town level AP in the original games, but only with the Berserk Pack. At least Town level in DOOM 4 due to killing boss tiers with his bare hands. Higher with the Berserk in DOOM 4.
• Weapons: Town Level for the BFG and the Rocket Launcher (via scaling for the latter)

Feel free to check me if I missed anything.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I don't know about Rocket Launcher; but RL RPG's 9-A actually. And I think certain Mid level demons have actually taken hits from those weapons. The Chainsaw actually does more damage than Rocket Launcher. Gauss Cannon might be Town level as that's one of Doom 4's top 3 strongest weapons alongside chainsaw and BFG. And of course, once we have Doom 3 Marine's profile, Soul Cube and the Artifact would also be Town Level. Unmaker would also be at least Town Level.

I agree with the weaker enemies being either Street level to Wall level, but leaning towards the latter. As for the mid tiers, I don't know, but they should be at least Room level scaling from the Rocket Launcher. I'll wait till others have any thoughts on the mid tiers.

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

Strange. So the Launcher would be Small Building level, then? That could probably be used to explain why boss tiers can tank so many rockets, but since Cybie's arm cannon literally shoots the same rockets that do the same damage, so I'm not sure whether or not that's the route we should take. As far as scaling mid-tiers to the Launcher though, a bunch of them can take at least two direct hits from it (in the original games), so that can work. Like you said earlier, Barons should be at least Small Building level through their own sheer size as well.

I'll do the smart thing and wait for other opinions on how we should scale the mid/high-tier monsters. I don't have enough experience with this sort of thing, and a few more minds might be enough to provide the insight we need.

Does anyone know here of other users who have good knowledge on DOOM and its verse?

 

[KarmodF]

When you make a treath with massive revisions but only gets 3 responses, but the guy that point out one flaw on the stats gets all the feedback.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Well, Colonel Kruvok left the wiki and doesn't quite plan on coming back anytime soon. LordXcano is semi active, but stepped down as a moderator and Calc group member. Numbersguy I think is pretty knowledgeable on the verse.

Edit: there's also ZeedMillenniummon89

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

@KarmodF: To be fair, this thread was made a month or so ago, and pretty much remained DOA until yesterday. Even I forgot it existed. lol

@Medeus: I know Krukov was considered an expert on the verse when he was around, but he's made it clear that he doesn't want to be back here for a long time. We could get the other two in on this, though. (Technically one: Numbersguy already replied earlier, but hasn't said anything else yet.)

 

[KarmodF]

I have been playing this ******* franchise as long as God of War so I think I can help, can somebody summarise what are the main discussion points?

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

Basically:

• We're working on fixing the scaling for the verse, since it's so painfully inconsistent right now that literally no match involving the profiles can be considered accurate at this point.
• The lower tiers (Former Humans, Imps, etc) are going to be Street or Wall level due to being easily killed by shotguns and above. Probably Wall level.
• We've come up with Town level for the Cyberdemon and Spider Mastermind, since they both directly scale to the BFG and are reliably capable of killing each other. Doomguy's physical AP with the Berserk will be Town level for the same reason.
• Doomguy in DOOM 4 is going to have a separate key due to being capable of killing just about any enemy in the game with just his bare hands (through Glory Kills), as well as having a few different weapons.
• Doomguy in DOOM 3 is getting a new profile due to being a completely different character from the original. When he does, the Soul Cube and The Artifact are going to be moved to his profile, and will have Town level AP via scaling.
• We haven't figured out how we should scale the mid-tier demons (Hell Knight, Cacodemon, etc) yet, nor have we figured out how to class most of the weapons.

Hopefully that should bring you up to speed.