• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

DOOM Discussion Thread

Chasm of Xal'Goroth is separate from the Cosmic Realm. Codex:-

"The chasm is a fragment of the Cosmic Realm that was held still by the dreaming will of the Old One during his imprisonment in Nerathul. After the Old One's death, the fragment was set adrift in the consciousness between worlds. Access to the fragment is bound to a cube-like device, which was used by the Witch to trespass between realms".

The Codex states that Xal'Goroth is "forever lingering beneath the planes of existence", has been "lost to ancient memory", and was deceived and entrapped "within the depths of void". We could very well assume that these descriptors are telling us about the Cosmic Realm's location, or the Chasm of Xal'Goroth's location for that matter. You need astral keys to access its prison in the game.

The boss name is literally "Xal'Goroth The Imprisoned", so it becomes even more likely that where we fought it was actually its prison "beneath the planes of existence" and "within the depths of void", where he had been "forever lingering" and had become "lost to ancient memory" subsequent to deception and entrapment at the hands of the Wraiths.

Your "ontological parsimony" argument is entirely based on the assumption that the Slayer fought a "fully awakened" and "released" Xal'Goroth in the sense described inside the Codex lore. Nothing supports that.

Prove that the Slayer "fully awakened" or managed to "release" it.

Prove that it was sleeping after the Wraiths deceived and contained it within the prison in the first place (the lore explicitly states otherwise with the "forever lingering beneath the planes of existence" line).

Prove that it was still a threat to all of creation despite being entrapped inside that prison, because if that's the case then the Wraiths didn't do shit (the lore implies that its threat was neutralised via the Wraiths' deception and its subsequent entrapment, ultimately resulting in him "forever lingering beneath the planes of existence" and being "lost to ancient memory").

Prove that the "fate runs its course" condition was fulfilled when the Slayer fought it, as it can only reset creation in that specific scenario.

What makes you conclude that Xal'Goroth is capable of insta-nuking all of creation? Because nothing in the Codex suggests that. The "collapse universes with the cold finality of a mathematical equation" phrase doesn't suggest that, the "his release will end all possibilities" line doesn't remotely imply that either, and neither does "reset creation only when fate runs its course" support your claim. Where are you even getting a time frame from? The third phrase, in fact, strengthens my argument that Xal'Goroth's full power is contingent.

You're also assuming that in the future hypothetical when Xal'Goroth resets all of creation upon the meeting of a specific condition, i.e. fate running its course, DOOM cosmology would remaine unchanged. Static universe fallacy.

Alright, lil bro. The Codex describes a future apocalyptic condition using several undefined terms ("fully awakened," "release", "when fate runs its course"), but it never explicitly identifies the boss encounter as that condition. Therefore, the claim that the Slayer fought the prophesied, fully awakened Xal'Goroth is an interpretation rather than an explicit statement of the lore.

This is going in circles. Refer to the first and second rebuttals that I made above. As to why the Slayer even fought Xal'Goroth, well, because it's a future/potential cosmic threat that needed killing? He unlocked its prison using astral keys and killed it inside, and the "fully awakened" or "release" shit described in the Codex entry simply couldn't happen there.

That's why I provided two interpretations in another reply:-

"The Codex explicitly qualifies Xal'Goroth's role, it was 'born to reset creation only when fate runs its course'. Whatever that phrase ultimately means, it establishes that Xal'Goroth's creation-resetting function is conditional, not something exercised indiscriminately at any moment. Since the game never establishes that this condition had been fulfilled when the Slayer encountered Xal'Goroth, we cannot simply assume the Codex's end-of-creation scenario was in effect during the boss fight".

The reason why I lean towards the "timer" explanation is because of the word "only". It implies some sort of a time or state bar on its creation devouring function.

The Wraiths' magic must be powerful af to hold such a cosmic creature in entrapment "within the depths of void" to the point that it had become "lost to ancient memory" and could nothing but linger "beneath the realms of existence".
You need Astral Keys because the Slayer is entering Purgatory to access a fragment torn from the Cosmic Realm. The "imprisonment" refers to his historical state before the Slayer unsealed the gate. The moment the Slayer unlocks the Astral Gate, the prison gate is open, and the fight is active. Doomguy opened and gate and fought and an unsealed Xal'Goroth. titles in lore denote identity, history, or origin, nothing combative.
‎Example: If a boss is named "The Chained King," but you break his chains or enter his arena to fight him as he attacks you, you don't automatically assume his physical stats are nerfed by 50% unless something can validate it. "The Imprisoned" explains why he was where he was and why you needed keys to reach him.

‎> "He unlocked his prison using astral keys and killed him inside it..."
‎So, If the Slayer used the astral keys to unlock the realm/prison, then literally by definition, the seal was broken/opened to allow the confrontation. You wouldn't unlock a cell door to fight a prisoner while saying the cell door is still suppressing the prisoner's range during the fight. Once unlocked, the prisonor is engaged directly.

‎Shifting the burden demon, you fr trying to force you to prove a negative to justify their theory, like ig man. "Prove that the Slayer fully awakened or managed to release it... Prove that the fate runs its course condition was fulfilled", W argumentum ad ignorantiam lol, in formal logic, the baseline for an entity is its stated lore capacity upon engagement. Any interlocutor asserting a hidden modifier (e.g., "it was operating under a stat debuff," "its power was artificially suppressed") will have the burden of proof.

‎"Only when fate runs its course" dictates when the reset happens, nothing debuffs Xal'Goroth's AP, and you're still confusing an entity's purpose/trigger event with its raw power. An atomic bomb is "built to be detonated only in extreme warfare" That doesn't mean its nuclear payload is less destructive or inert while sitting in a silo. Its purpose is conditional, its raw capability is still intact and constant. A fire extinguisher is "designed to be used only in the event of a fire" that doesn't mean the fluid inside the extinguisher lacks pressure or chemical capability until the fire starts. Its designed purpose is conditional, its force is inherent to its existence.

‎And yeah you don't seem to understand what's ontological parsimony is, what you said is basically a category that literally doesn't have anything to do with Occam's razor, proposing an entity is operating at its baseline power when you unlock its chamber and fight it is not an 'assumption', it is the default state or basically a presumption. Prsimony (Occam's razor) evaluates which theory requires the fewest unevidenced entities or rules. Mine has the fewest assumptions, while yours, geez, has like 3-4 assumptions.

‎about the wraith argument, you still haven't attacked my point at all. The Codex explicitly refutes this: "Fearing that which they could not control, the ancient Wraiths deceived this creature into entrapment..."
‎Deception proves INABILITY to fight, If the Wraiths were strong enough to subdue or stat-check Xal'Goroth in direct combat, they wouldn't need to trick him. The lore states they acted out of FEAR because they couldnt control him.
 
You need Astral Keys because the Slayer is entering Purgatory to access a fragment torn from the Cosmic Realm. The "imprisonment" refers to his historical state before the Slayer unsealed the gate. The moment the Slayer unlocks the Astral Gate, the prison gate is open, and the fight is active. Doomguy opened and gate and fought and an unsealed Xal'Goroth. titles in lore denote identity, history, or origin, nothing combative.
‎Example: If a boss is named "The Chained King," but you break his chains or enter his arena to fight him as he attacks you, you don't automatically assume his physical stats are nerfed by 50% unless something can validate it. "The Imprisoned" explains why he was where he was and why you needed keys to reach him.

‎> "He unlocked his prison using astral keys and killed him inside it..."
‎So, If the Slayer used the astral keys to unlock the realm/prison, then literally by definition, the seal was broken/opened to allow the confrontation. You wouldn't unlock a cell door to fight a prisoner while saying the cell door is still suppressing the prisoner's range during the fight. Once unlocked, the prisonor is engaged directly.

‎Shifting the burden demon, you fr trying to force you to prove a negative to justify their theory, like ig man. "Prove that the Slayer fully awakened or managed to release it... Prove that the fate runs its course condition was fulfilled", W argumentum ad ignorantiam lol, in formal logic, the baseline for an entity is its stated lore capacity upon engagement. Any interlocutor asserting a hidden modifier (e.g., "it was operating under a stat debuff," "its power was artificially suppressed") will have the burden of proof.

‎"Only when fate runs its course" dictates when the reset happens, nothing debuffs Xal'Goroth's AP, and you're still confusing an entity's purpose/trigger event with its raw power. An atomic bomb is "built to be detonated only in extreme warfare" That doesn't mean its nuclear payload is less destructive or inert while sitting in a silo. Its purpose is conditional, its raw capability is still intact and constant. A fire extinguisher is "designed to be used only in the event of a fire" that doesn't mean the fluid inside the extinguisher lacks pressure or chemical capability until the fire starts. Its designed purpose is conditional, its force is inherent to its existence.

‎And yeah you don't seem to understand what's ontological parsimony is, what you said is basically a category that literally doesn't have anything to do with Occam's razor, proposing an entity is operating at its baseline power when you unlock its chamber and fight it is not an 'assumption', it is the default state or basically a presumption. Prsimony (Occam's razor) evaluates which theory requires the fewest unevidenced entities or rules. Mine has the fewest assumptions, while yours, geez, has like 3-4 assumptions.

‎about the wraith argument, you still haven't attacked my point at all. The Codex explicitly refutes this: "Fearing that which they could not control, the ancient Wraiths deceived this creature into entrapment..."
‎Deception proves INABILITY to fight, If the Wraiths were strong enough to subdue or stat-check Xal'Goroth in direct combat, they wouldn't need to trick him. The lore states they acted out of FEAR because they couldnt control him.
Your argument still hinges on treating several inferences as established facts, but none of those inferences are actually stated in the Codex.

First, you claim that because the Slayer used the Astral Keys to enter the Chasm, Xal'Goroth was necessarily released from its imprisonment. That conclusion simply does not follow. Nothing in the Codex states that opening the Astral Gate or entering the Chasm broke the seal or restored Xal'Goroth to the state described by the prophecy. At most, it establishes that the Slayer gained access to where Xal'Goroth was being held. Those are not the same thing. Fiction is full of examples where a prison can be entered without its suppressive properties being removed. The burden is on you to demonstrate that the Astral Keys released Xal'Goroth, not merely that they allowed access to its prison.

This is made even more questionable by the fact that the boss is literally called "Xal'Goroth the Imprisoned". While titles are not always literal indicators of combat capability, they certainly do not support the claim that Xal'Goroth had already been fully released. If anything, the title reinforces that imprisonment remains a defining characteristic of its state during the encounter.

Moreover, the entire purpose of the Wraiths' deception and entrapment was to neutralise Xal'Goroth as an existential threat. The Codex says they feared what they could not control and therefore deceived it into entrapment "within the depths of the void", where it became "lost to ancient memory" and would "forever linger beneath the realms of existence". Those events are presented as the reason Xal'Goroth ceased to pose an immediate cosmic threat. Nothing in the game or the Codex states that this imprisonment ended when the Slayer accessed the Chasm or that the Astral Keys restored Xal'Goroth to the prophetic state described as "fully awakened" and "released". If that's the claim being made, it requires textual support rather than assumption.

Likewise, you repeatedly equate "unsealed", "fully active", "fully awakened", and "released" as though the Codex itself treats them as synonymous. It doesn't. The text distinguishes between Xal'Goroth being awakened at the birth of the Cosmic Realm, being deceived and entrapped "within the depths of the void", "forever lingering beneath the realms of existence", and the future hypotheticals in which it is "fully awakened" and "released". Nowhere does the Codex explicitly define those terms as equivalent or state that the Slayer encountered Xal'Goroth in that final prophetic state. That's an interpretation, not an explicit statement of the lore.

Your appeal to "baseline capacity" also begs the question. Baseline capacity only applies once you've established that the entity is actually in its baseline state. That is precisely the point under dispute. You cannot assume Xal'Goroth was in the exact state described by the prophecy and then use that assumption to argue that it must have been operating at baseline. That is circular reasoning.

Regarding "only when fate runs its course", I'm not arguing that Xal'Goroth has a literal countdown timer or that its raw attack potency is somehow switched off until a predetermined moment. My point is much narrower. The Codex explicitly qualifies its creation-resetting function with the word "only". Whatever "fate runs its course" ultimately means, the text makes that event conditional rather than unconditional. Since the game never establishes that this condition had been fulfilled during the boss encounter, it cannot simply be assumed that the prophetic end-of-creation scenario described by the Codex was already in effect. Purpose and conditions aren't mutually exclusive, either.

Your analogies involving the atomic bomb and the fire extinguisher are also inapposite because they assume the very conclusion you're trying to prove. An atomic bomb unquestionably possesses its destructive capacity while sitting in a silo because nothing in its design or description suggests that capacity is contingent on any additional state. Likewise, a fire extinguisher's intended purpose has no bearing on whether it currently contains pressurised extinguishing agent.

Xal'Goroth is different. The Codex does not merely describe its purpose, it qualifies its role with the phrase "only when fate runs its course" and separately refers to it being "fully awakened" and "released". Those are additional conditions that the text itself introduces. Since the relationship between those conditions and Xal'Goroth's present state is never defined, your analogies simply assume that Xal'Goroth possessed the exact same operational state during the boss encounter as it would in the future prophetic scenario. That is precisely what remains to be demonstrated.

I also don't think your ontological parsimony argument helps here. Occam's Razor doesn't tell us to choose the interpretation that sounds simplest; it tells us to prefer the explanation that accounts for all the evidence while introducing the fewest unsupported assumptions. Your interpretation still requires several assumptions that the Codex never explicitly makes: that opening the Astral Gate automatically broke Xal'Goroth's imprisonment, that "fully awakened" is synonymous with "released", that "released" is synonymous with the state in which the Slayer fought Xal'Goroth, and that the prophecy had already entered the conditions described by "only when fate runs its course". Those are inferential steps, not textual facts. When someone makes a positive assertion or an affirmative claim, they bear the burden of proof.

Finally, your point about the Wraiths doesn't follow either. The Codex says they feared what they could not control and therefore deceived Xal'Goroth into entrapment. That establishes that deception was the method they chose. It does not establish that they were incapable of confronting Xal'Goroth by any other means or that deception somehow proves its power was completely unaffected by imprisonment. Those are additional conclusions that the text itself never draws.

Ultimately, my position remains the same: the Codex never explicitly identifies the boss encounter as the prophetic state in which Xal'Goroth is "fully awakened" and "released". You're free to interpret it that way, but it remains an interpretation. Until the text or a developer statement explicitly establishes that the Slayer fought that exact state of Xal'Goroth, presenting it as settled canon goes beyond what the available evidence actually supports.
 
Last edited:
How come the crucible is small city level but on Doom guy's page its cited as taking over the realms and part of his uni scaling.
 
Back
Top