- 34,877
- 42,473
-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
DOOM Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Gasper
- Start date
- 1,177
- 528
"Beyond Hell"
Proceeds to have its deities mogged by random thugs/butlers who were empowered
- 417
- 174
My two cents: This wasn't a "free" or "fully awakened" version of Xal'Gororth. This was a heavily weakened version because of his entrapment "within the depths of void" at the hands of the ancient wraiths through their deception. That's why he was considered "lost to ancient memory" and "forever lingering beneath the realms of existence" in-lore.
Still very impressive for the DOOM Slayer.
- 34,877
- 42,473
I noticed this for a long while, but it's most uncanny how much in common Doomslayer has to Tadano Hitonari. And most recent stuff keeps making it even more apparent.
- 5,742
- 4,997
Nothing really supports that the Xal Goroth that slayer fights is weakened
- 417
- 174
My interpretation is based on the fact that Xal'Goroth had been entrapped "within the depths of the void", was "lost to ancient memory", and is described as becoming catastrophic if ever fully awakened. To me, that implies the version encountered wasn't in its ideal or fully realised state.
- 233
- 126
Not that short. Years might not have passed between the DLC and base game, but still time has passed, and we know that because everyone is somewhere else compared to where they were at the end of the base game.
Yes, I read the codex, it is besides the point though. The part exploited is the whole thing with his soul, but it doesn't change the fact that the henchman slams and stomps him and KO's him, destroys his armor, and shield. Then the story doubles down on this by having him get the architect to create a new armor/fix the shield to be even stronger.
Hellscream
He/Him- 2,695
- 1,530
It is short, as he still has Ahzrak's wound lol.
It isn't besides the point, as it is a weakness you literally cannot escape the council of six's chamber unless if you are devoid of sin or doubt.
Doomslayer had sinned, which caused him to become weakened and defeatable.
"
I reveal to you now the design that brought the Outlander into the halls of the Six, where even he could be made vulnerable.
When Ahzrak wounded the Slayer, it revealed what none before believed possible a fracture buried deep within the heretic's soul. The spear that pierced him had been forged for the Dark Realm alone, fashioned to draw forth memory and hidden pain. The scars of his mortal life endure within him still, buried beneath rage and divinity alike.
Hell's Council required only that he be brought before the all-seeing eyes gathered within their chamber. There, the truths revealed by the spear could be turned inward against him. Within those halls, even the Slayer could be rendered mortal."
"The High Council now presides where Malgareth's throne once stood, their judgments merciless and absolute. Ancient wards built into the very foundation of the chambers allow the Council to look within the souls of all who enter, to craft torment of pain that wreaks havoc within. Only one devoid of sin or doubt could hope to enter the chambers without being crushed by the weight of their trespasses."
The henchman defeated him because of this exact reason. he became "vulnerable" and the henchman is not just an ordinary Demon, he became the councils champion, empowered by all six of them.
Matter of fact, the Slayers stats will be upgraded due to the DLC.
Last edited:
- 9,163
- 10,059
Just completed the main story of the DLC. Had a lot of fun. Even more fast-paced than before. Time for the Master Levels.
- 233
- 126
You're not really engaging with my argument here. The slayer's bad memories doesn't change the slayer's actual durability, or the slayers armor's durability, or the shield's durability. If it really did, Ahzrak would've killed him.
All of this is besides the point. We know it is. The shield needed to be reforged in stages, and the armor needed to be superpowered to where it is now.
Hellscream
He/Him- 2,695
- 1,530
You don't have an argument?...
Read the codex, it's not hard to comprehend, they normally would not be able to defeat him under normal circumstances which is very explicitly stated.
"The slayer is now vulnerable" "Mortal" meaning it's not just something emotional, but affects him physically.
We don't know 100% as to why, we know that he is. Anything else is irrelevant to the argument.
Shields durability is irrelevant, so is the armor as it's not the Praetor suit. Ahzrak was capable of breaking his helmet as well, means absolutely nothing.
It's about the Slayer himself, his armor needed to be broken for him to need new armor and the Praetor suit.
And he evidently can fight perfectly fine without it, something which we also knew, the Sentinel gear was nothing special either.'
It's his own power that is special, and now his gear is too.
Read the codex, it's not hard to comprehend, they normally would not be able to defeat him under normal circumstances which is very explicitly stated.
"The slayer is now vulnerable" "Mortal" meaning it's not just something emotional, but affects him physically.
We don't know 100% as to why, we know that he is. Anything else is irrelevant to the argument.
Shields durability is irrelevant, so is the armor as it's not the Praetor suit. Ahzrak was capable of breaking his helmet as well, means absolutely nothing.
It's about the Slayer himself, his armor needed to be broken for him to need new armor and the Praetor suit.
And he evidently can fight perfectly fine without it, something which we also knew, the Sentinel gear was nothing special either.'
It's his own power that is special, and now his gear is too.
Hellscream
He/Him- 2,695
- 1,530
Rip & Tear - Until It Is Done
The DOOM TDA Revelations tracks are so good lol.
Hellscream
He/Him- 2,695
- 1,530
so a fragment of the cosmic realm in itself is infinitely large.
"DOOM: The Dark Ages - Revelations | Chasm Of Xal'Goroth
Here's the work for the Chasm Of Xal'Goroth, the idea was this impossibly huge labyrinth maze being endlessly drawn into a black hole singularity at the end of the level. The Cosmic realm's signature weirdness lent itself well to the theme of unending labyrinth. The initial greyscale ideas were fleshed out into the final keyshot which was used to drive the design of the 'exterior' space of this level. There are also sketches detailing what the closer elements should look like.
Art Direction by Emerson Tung
All Images © id Software, Zenimax Media Inc."
"DOOM: The Dark Ages - Revelations | Chasm Of Xal'Goroth
Here's the work for the Chasm Of Xal'Goroth, the idea was this impossibly huge labyrinth maze being endlessly drawn into a black hole singularity at the end of the level. The Cosmic realm's signature weirdness lent itself well to the theme of unending labyrinth. The initial greyscale ideas were fleshed out into the final keyshot which was used to drive the design of the 'exterior' space of this level. There are also sketches detailing what the closer elements should look like.
Art Direction by Emerson Tung
All Images © id Software, Zenimax Media Inc."
- 5,742
- 4,997
Hugo Martin says Doom Slayer was nerfed in the council chamber
- 5,742
- 4,997
Hugo mentions at the beginning of the dlc, Slayer is tired and his old wound hasn't fully healed
- 1,177
- 528
Azhrak upsale
Hellscream
He/Him- 2,695
- 1,530
Literally what the codex says lmao but yeah
- 34,877
- 42,473
Yup, even a "nerfed" or "Exhausted" Doomslayer is casually Extradimensional tier
- 23
- 5
Hugo did confirm that the cosmic realm has higher geometric dimensions at play, and its weirdness is brought about by the effects of those dimensions as inspired from lovecraft's work. So min 5D.
- 477
- 315
You do realize that "awaken" just means to wake up from sleep right? Xal'goroth was obviously wide awake as opposed to being asleep, therefore he was "fully awakened". This idea of "awakening" referring to the "awakening of some potential within someone on top of them literally being awake" is just an anime/spiritual enlightenment thing and doesn't fit in with the story of Doom or Xal'goroth at all, as opposed to the trope of Lovecraftian gods sleeping [he means this literally, because this was in reference to the Old One literally sleeping] which Hugo has confirmed he actually does utilize in the story.
Also keep in mind that Doomguy would've absorbed his power either way.
There's no proof that being entrapped within the depths of the void weakened it at all. Doomguy obviously wasn't weakened by going in there. I suppose you could assume that that's just because of Xal'goroth lacking a power nullification resistance that Doomguy has but at that point you're just piling up assumptions to downplay Doomguy's feat of beating Xal'goroth.
- 417
- 174
Nope, Xal'Goroth wasn't awakened when the Slayer fought him, at least not in the sense of being at full power. Of course, they did fight and obvious game mechanics were involved, but it wasn't in a fully realised state in-lore. Because if it were, all of creation would've been transformed incomprehensibly with the cold finality of a mathematical equation. That's what the Codex states.
While the Slayer does absorb the power of his fallen foes, we don't know till what extent, or by what amount he gets an amp, when he does so. Therefore, no, he won't suddenly attain the same powers or qualitative status as Xal'Goroth upon slaying it.
Except... We literally see that its supposed "awakening" didn't incomprehensibly transform all of creation into shapes beyond logical thought and comprehension. The only way you could reconcile what happens in the cutscenes and what's stated in the lore when it comes to Xal'Goroth, is by assuming that it wasn't at full potential when the Slayer fought it.
You also ignored two major phrases in the Codex. Upon the Wraiths' deception, Xal'Goroth was gonna "forever linger beneath the planes of existence" and was already "lost to ancient memory". If it waking up is supposed to end all possibilities, it's quite clear it wasn't fully awakened in that sense when the Slayer fought it, as it was already "lost to ancient memory" and made to "forever linger beneath the planes of existence".
Last edited:
- 84
- 51
that's just an appeal to reductio ad absurdism, so by your logic, if lore says awakened X ends all creation, the devs would have to delete the game world mid fight to prove it?, I don't know why you're treating game mechanics as lore contradictions because this is the big 26 bro. That standard would make every RPG villain a fraud unless the credits roll. So either lore is true despite gameplay limits, or your rule is broken. Take your pick.
Also, this could genuinely be begging the question, If a villain has a bomb that can destroy a city, and the hero defeats the villain before/as the bomb goes off, we don't conclude "The bomb must have been a firecracker." We conclude "The hero stopped the catastrophe."
Saying "Creation is fine, so Xal'Goroth must have been weakened" is circular logic.
and why are we going off by the least parsimonious probability that Xal'Goroth was weakened? what Telomera said is true regarding how Hugo adapted Cthulhu Mythos' characterisation of its creatures and applied it to DOOM, Cthulhu Mythos' monsters when speaking of their 'awakened' state, it's mainly about them being active / unsealed / fully released / literally awaken from sleep, far away from any super saiyan-like bullshit to emphasize that they're at their full faculties. And with that being the case (adapting Cthulhu Mythos characteristics), under Occam's Razor, we can conclude that the probability of Xal'Goroth being at full power is more ontologically 'parsimonious' than the other probability of Xal'Goroth being weakened (which is based upon baseless unproven assertions & hidden presumptions that does not hold.), which should also be logically conceivable with DOOM's Cosmology, since the latter already adopts a lot of Cthulhu stuff. The Dreamlands and the Cosmic Realm are a great example of that.
"lost to ancient memory", "forever linger beneath the planes of existence" both of these statements support the fact that Xal'Goroth was sealed / inactive / contained, and we can clearly see in the boss fight that Xal'Goroth was active / unsealed / full released.
Last edited:
- 477
- 315
You're assuming that Xal'goroth not doing destroying everything is specifically due to Xal'goroth not having full power despite being awake (something you're also assuming is a possibility in the first place) and ignoring the obvious explanation of it simply being due to the fact that Xal'goroth was trapped in the void between worlds and that Doomguy killed him before he could reach the multiverse and end all worlds (both of which we actually do know were the case). Not only do you have to assume Xal'goroth was weakened and that this specifically was the reason Xal'goroth didn't destroy anything, but also that the codex meant that Xal'goroth would instantly destroy the multiverse if fully awakened, which is yet another ad-hoc, unnecessary assumption you have to make just to force your downplaying of this very obvious multiversal feat and pretend as if all other explanations lead to contradictions. It's kinda like if you were to claim that aliens stole your car keys and upon being asked for proof, said "Well if they hadn't been stolen by aliens, I would've been able to find them!" while completely ignoring all of the other more reasonable explanations. You may think your explanation is simple and parsimonious but you're actually sneaking in a lot of really stupid assumptions into your argument.
To put it in other words, your argument hinges on the conditional "If Xal-goroth was at full power when Doomguy woke it up, it would necessarily have destroyed all worlds." Yet your claim that this is the case relies on several additional ad-hoc assumptions.
This is literally just a non sequitur. Xal'goroth "lingering beneath the planes of existence" and being "lost to ancient memory" has no bearing on its power.
- 417
- 174
You're strawmanning me. All I'm saying is: 1} Xal'Goroth was deceived and entrapped by the Wraiths. 2} The Slayer fought it where it was entrapped (beneath the planes of existence, within the depths of void, where it was gonna linger forever). 3} The Slayer defeated something that was "lost to ancient memory".
It's not an appeal to reductio ad absurdism, it's the golden interpretation of the Codex entry. I'm not disputing Hugo's intent, I'm just disputing your illogical interpretation of a Codex entry in light of that intent.
Your "villian with a bomb" example doesn't even cleanly apply in this case because: 1} We know that the bomb is an immediate threat to a city (i.e., how long it'll take to destroy the city). 2} The hero would neither scale to the bomb nor absorb its destructive potential, he'd only scale to the villian.
"Oh, but the lore doesn't literally say that Xal'Goroth was weakened". It's clearly in the subtext. The Slayer didn't "awaken" Xal'Goroth, it was already "forever lingering beneath the planes of existence" and "lost to ancient memory". The most natural reading is that the Wraiths' deception and its subsequent entrapment led to it losing its qualitative status and powers. Let me explain how.
It had to be wide awake in order to be actively deceived and entrapped by the Wraiths "beneath the planes of existence". Nothing suggests that it went to sleep thereafter, or that the Slayer "fully" awakened it or managed to "release" it for that matter. Xal'Goroth was technically awake when the Slayer fought it, but it was contained and constrained. It wasn't "fully" awakened or "released" as described in the Codex. The lore places emphasis on "fully" for a reason.
So, in this context: "entrapped" = containment, "linger" = active but constrained, and "release" = return to full power.
Also, per Codex, Xal'Goroth would reset creation "only when fate runs its course". Do I have to explain what that means too? It likely means that Xal'Goroth would only transmogrify all possibilities at the end of the world's lifecycle. This either means that its powers only work under a particular configuration of the world, or that it doesn't use its higher mathematical powers until the world reaches a specific state.
Therefore, I believe that subduing Xal'Goroth is more of a feat for the Wraiths than it is for the Slayer, as they managed to contain and constrain it in its "fully awakened" state unlike the Slayer (though we still don't know whether it used its higher mathematical powers on them or not). This makes sense, as even a single touch from a Wraith can completely immobilise the Slayer.
"Awake" != "Fully awake". So, nope, I'm not assuming anything unreasonable or non-sequitur. Xal'Goroth was wide awake when deceived and entrapped by the Wraiths within "the depths of void", and it was eventually "lost to ancient memory".
Nothing suggests that the Slayer managed to "fully awaken" or "release" it from its entrapment, as only then would it have been restored to its qualitative status of creation destroyer according to the Codex. When the Slayer fought it, though, it was a contained and constrained version of a cosmic entity "lost to ancient memory" and just "forever lingering beneath the planes of existence".
Prove that the Slayer "fully awakened" or managed to "release" it. Prove that it was sleeping after the Wraiths deceived and contained it within the Chasm in the first place (the lore explicitly states otherwise with the "forever lingering beneath the planes of existence" line). Prove that the "fate runs its course" condition was fulfilled when the Slayer fought it, as it can only reset creation in that specific scenario.
Last edited:
- 1,177
- 528
My 2 cents?
Xal'Goroth has the capacity to end all creation when fate runs it's course
It has the power and should it ever be functional again then yes, all of creation is in danger from it awakening
Idk where you're getting the whole "wake up and insta nuke" everything from but from what was stated in the codex and from the gameplay I always thought Xal'Goroth was so difficult to fight and is a super boss because unlike Enhanced Azhrak or Belias The Henchmen this one has the power to destroy creation
When the slayer fought it he fought something capable of that destruction yes but he also did something not even the Elemental Wraiths did and kill Xal'Goroth ending his threat
Basically slayer killed something with the capacity to destroy creation if it were to ever choose to after being unbound by its prison
Xal'Goroth has the capacity to end all creation when fate runs it's course
It has the power and should it ever be functional again then yes, all of creation is in danger from it awakening
Idk where you're getting the whole "wake up and insta nuke" everything from but from what was stated in the codex and from the gameplay I always thought Xal'Goroth was so difficult to fight and is a super boss because unlike Enhanced Azhrak or Belias The Henchmen this one has the power to destroy creation
When the slayer fought it he fought something capable of that destruction yes but he also did something not even the Elemental Wraiths did and kill Xal'Goroth ending his threat
Basically slayer killed something with the capacity to destroy creation if it were to ever choose to after being unbound by its prison
- 1,177
- 528
If we go by Xal'Goroth insta nuking everything by waking up there wouldn't be DOOM in the first place as in was in operation before The Wraiths sealed it
- 417
- 174
The Codex explicitly qualifies Xal'Goroth's role, it was "born to reset creation only when fate runs its course". Whatever that phrase ultimately means, it establishes that Xal'Goroth's creation-resetting function is conditional, not something exercised indiscriminately at any moment. Since the game never establishes that this condition had been fulfilled when the Slayer encountered Xal'Goroth, we cannot simply assume the Codex's end-of-creation scenario was in effect during the boss fight.
Likewise, the codex distinguishes between Xal'Goroth's state after being deceived and entrapped, where it is described as "lost to ancient memory" and "forever lingering beneath the realms of existence", and the future hypotheticals in which it is "fully awakened" and "released". The text never defines the relationship between these terms, nor does it state that the Slayer fought Xal'Goroth in that latter state. Therefore, anyone claiming the Slayer fought a fully awakened, fully released Xal'Goroth bears the burden of demonstrating that from the text rather than assuming those conditions had already been met.
Likewise, the codex distinguishes between Xal'Goroth's state after being deceived and entrapped, where it is described as "lost to ancient memory" and "forever lingering beneath the realms of existence", and the future hypotheticals in which it is "fully awakened" and "released". The text never defines the relationship between these terms, nor does it state that the Slayer fought Xal'Goroth in that latter state. Therefore, anyone claiming the Slayer fought a fully awakened, fully released Xal'Goroth bears the burden of demonstrating that from the text rather than assuming those conditions had already been met.
- 1,177
- 528
I don't think the second paragraph is very strong
It could mean that "forever lingering" means he's trapped in it but his presence is known as well... the realm is named after him and "lost to ancient memory" could just mean he was locked for a long ass time as The Elemental Wraiths were still in function way back then
To your first paragraph I see where you're coming from, Xal'Goroths best feat is a conditional related event that has not been met yet. Yes I agree it's a bit weird but with that said let me qoute the whole codex entry with my comments in brackets and bold
"Upon the birth of the Cosmic Realm Xal'Goroth was slowly awakened, as energy and matter coalesced into form within the abyss. Where it stirred, reality trembled, as if existence itself recoiled from the shape it was never meant to take.
This creature's inmense power radiates through the silence, palpable yet impossible to understand. Free from any master or purpose, Xal'Goroth knows nothing but consumption (THIS IMPLIES XAL'GOROTHS METHOD OF ENDING ALL THINGS THROUGH EATING IT) , a vessel born to reset creation only when fate runs its course. Fearing that which they could not control, the ancient Wraiths deceived this creature into entrapment within the depths of the void to be lost to ancient memory, forever lingering beneath the realms of existence. (THIS WOULD EXPLAIN THE LINGERING LINE AS THE CODEX DESCRIBES IT AS SOMETHING THAT IS PALPABLE. "FOREVER LINGERING" MEANS ITS POWER IS STILL IN EFFECT ON THE REALM)
If ever fully awakened, he will collapse universes with the cold finality of a mathematical equation transforming existence into forms beyond comprehension. The consequences of his end are unknow, but it must come, as his release will end all possibilities."
- 1,177
- 528
Also does this give slayer fate manip and resistance to fate manip?
As he killed a being who was destined to reset creation once fate ran its course. Essentially denying Xal'Goroths cosmic purpose and saving everything from being reset
As he killed a being who was destined to reset creation once fate ran its course. Essentially denying Xal'Goroths cosmic purpose and saving everything from being reset
ShionAH
He/Him- 21,197
- 7,902
He already has that lol
- 1,177
- 528
Well more stuff for it
- 84
- 51
> You're strawmanning me. All I'm saying is: 1} Xal'Goroth was deceived and entrapped by the Wraiths. 2} The Slayer fought it where it was entrapped (beneath the planes of existence, within the depths of void, where it was gonna linger forever). 3} The Slayer defeated something that was "lost to ancient memory".
Yeah no i didn't strawman, i just attacked another point of yours, lol.
And speaking of attacking arguments, i have a contention for premise 2, can you go ahead and prove that assertion? pretty sure the fight took place in the cosmic realm, specifically Chasm of Xal'Goroth, and in no where it's stated to take in a place that's 'beneath the planes of existence, within the depths of void, where it was gonna linger forever', about premise 3, that really does not support your implication in any way, but rather, it supports mine that it WAS sealed, but since we can clearly see that the fight took place in a place that's not what you're proposing. We can conclude that the fight occurs in an unsealed location and going by that, Xal'Goroth was unsealed and fully active.
> It's not an appeal to reductio ad absurdism, it's the golden interpretation of the Codex entry. I'm not disputing Hugo's intent, I'm just disputing your illogical interpretation of a Codex entry in light of that intent.
yeah you didn't attack anything at all, fun fact, my ontological parsimony argument went unaddressed. So yeah we aren't using your interpretation.
> Your "villian with a bomb" example doesn't even cleanly apply in this case because: 1} We know that the bomb is an immediate threat to a city (i.e., how long it'll take to destroy the city). 2} The hero would neither scale to the bomb nor absorb its destructive potential, he'd only scale to the villian.
yeah that's just a terrible analysis of my analogy, even if the ending all possibilities is over time (which is not true), it would still scale to Xal'Goroth's A.P because he IS capable of doing it at the end of the day. No matter how long the time it'll took him to destroy everything (as long as it's not an infinite amount) everything will apply to his A.P, about the 'hero would only scale the villain' good point bro, except that this is not a urban level feat that would require external forces like a bomb, here, Doomguy is attacking the cause (Xal'Goroth) who's capable of inferring the effect (destruction of creation)
> "Oh, but the lore doesn't literally say that Xal'Goroth was weakened". It's clearly in the subtext. The Slayer didn't "awaken" Xal'Goroth, it was already "forever lingering beneath the planes of existence" and "lost to ancient memory". The most natural reading is that the Wraiths' deception and its subsequent entrapment led to it losing its qualitative status and powers. Let me explain how.
I already explained what 'awaken' means in this context, argument of doom and desperation. That's just a non sequitur as well, what's gonna be the argument for these texts inferring Xal'Goroth being weakened rather than just sealed away. That's an extremely vacuous way to interpret those statements.
"Forever linger beneath the planes of existence" describes where it was sealed/bound
"Lost to ancient memory" is epistemological (historical obscurity), nothing suggests it's an ontological or qualitative (power degradation).
> It had to be wide awake in order to be actively deceived and entrapped by the Wraiths "beneath the planes of existence". Nothing suggests that it went to sleep thereafter, or that the Slayer "fully" awakened it or managed to "release" it for that matter. Xal'Goroth was technically awake when the Slayer fought it, but it was contained and constrained. It wasn't "fully" awakened or "released" as described in the Codex. The lore places emphasis on "fully" for a reason.
So, in this context: "entrapped" = containment, "linger" = active but constrained, and "release" = return to full power.
why are we inventing custom definitions for common words to force a debuff bro. "To linger" literally means to remain in a place or state longer than expected. "To release" means to unbind or set free. Concluding that "release" inherently means "a Super Saiyan returns to his 100% qualitative power" is a ****** semantic leap. You're begging the question by using your conclusion as your premise.
All of this is based upon the presupposition that the Slayer fought a contained Xal'Goroth, first, go ahead and prove that, second, if Xal'Goroth was already contained, why would Doomguy risk his life to kill a cosmic being that's ALREADY contained and sealed away?
> Also, per Codex, Xal'Goroth would reset creation "only when fate runs its course". Do I have to explain what that means too? It likely means that Xal'Goroth would only transmogrify all possibilities at the end of the world's lifecycle. This either means that its powers only work under a particular configuration of the world, or that it doesn't use its higher mathematical powers until the world reaches a specific state.
Again, why would Doomguy fight such a dangerous cosmic threat if it's neutralized, that only leads to the interpretation of fate already running, and time is ticking and Doomguy shall defeat it as fast as possible.
btw, the Codex says Xal'Goroth "knows nothing but consumption, a vessel born to reset creation only when fate runs its course", that obviously describes Xal'Goroth's purpose/function, rather than a prerequisite or lock on his raw power output. It means his purpose in the cosmo is to serve as an end state mechanism. saying his raw power is locked behind a "timer" is just headcanon.
> Therefore, I believe that subduing Xal'Goroth is more of a feat for the Wraiths than it is for the Slayer, as they managed to contain and constrain it in its "fully awakened" state unlike the Slayer (though we still don't know whether it used its higher mathematical powers on them or not). This makes sense, as even a single touch from a Wraith can completely immobilise the Slayer.
'therefore....immobilise the Slayer' non sequitur of doom.
the claim that "subduing Xal'Goroth is more of a feat for the Wraiths... because a single touch from a Wraith can completely immobilise the Slayer" ignores the EXACT verb used in the Codex;
The Codex says the Wraiths deceived Xal'Goroth into entrapment. Trickery or magic seals don't equal hid actual ontology.
heres the exact quote from the codex: ' Free from any master or purpose, Xal'Goroth knows nothing but consumption, a vessel born to reset creation only when fate runs its course. Fearing that which they could not control, the ancient Wraiths deceived this creature into entrapment within the depths of the void to be lost to ancient memory, forever lingering beneath the realms of existence. '
- 84
- 51
Pretty sure Doomguy's fate manipulation (condemning his enemies to suffer doom from his hands) overpowered Xal'Goroth's fateful destruction of creation, does that count as a layer for Doomguy's fate manipulation? Or like at least gives Doomguy a resistance to fate manipulation?
- 1,177
- 528
Resistance
- 84
- 51
Good enough
- 417
- 174
Chasm of Xal'Goroth is separate from the Cosmic Realm. Codex:-
"The chasm is a fragment of the Cosmic Realm that was held still by the dreaming will of the Old One during his imprisonment in Nerathul. After the Old One's death, the fragment was set adrift in the consciousness between worlds. Access to the fragment is bound to a cube-like device, which was used by the Witch to trespass between realms".
The Codex states that Xal'Goroth is "forever lingering beneath the planes of existence", has been "lost to ancient memory", and was deceived and entrapped "within the depths of void". We could very well assume that these descriptors are telling us about the Cosmic Realm's location, or the Chasm of Xal'Goroth's location for that matter. You need astral keys to access its prison in the game.
The boss name is literally "Xal'Goroth The Imprisoned", so it becomes even more likely that where we fought it was actually its prison "beneath the planes of existence" and "within the depths of void", where he had been "forever lingering" and had become "lost to ancient memory" subsequent to deception and entrapment at the hands of the Wraiths.
Your "ontological parsimony" argument is entirely based on the assumption that the Slayer fought a "fully awakened" and "released" Xal'Goroth in the sense described inside the Codex lore. Nothing supports that.
Prove that the Slayer "fully awakened" or managed to "release" it.
Prove that it was sleeping after the Wraiths deceived and contained it within the prison in the first place (the lore explicitly states otherwise with the "forever lingering beneath the planes of existence" line).
Prove that it was still a threat to all of creation despite being entrapped inside that prison, because if that's the case then the Wraiths didn't do shit (the lore implies that its threat was neutralised via the Wraiths' deception and its subsequent entrapment, ultimately resulting in him "forever lingering beneath the planes of existence" and being "lost to ancient memory").
Prove that the "fate runs its course" condition was fulfilled when the Slayer fought it, as it can only reset creation in that specific scenario.
What makes you conclude that Xal'Goroth is capable of insta-nuking all of creation? Because nothing in the Codex suggests that. The "collapse universes with the cold finality of a mathematical equation" phrase doesn't suggest that, the "his release will end all possibilities" line doesn't remotely imply that either, and neither does "reset creation only when fate runs its course" support your claim. Where are you even getting a time frame from? The third phrase, in fact, strengthens my argument that Xal'Goroth's full power is contingent.
You're also assuming that in the future hypothetical when Xal'Goroth resets all of creation upon the meeting of a specific condition, i.e. fate running its course, DOOM cosmology would remaine unchanged. Static universe fallacy.
Alright, lil bro. The Codex describes a future apocalyptic condition using several undefined terms ("fully awakened," "release", "when fate runs its course"), but it never explicitly identifies the boss encounter as that condition. Therefore, the claim that the Slayer fought the prophesied, fully awakened Xal'Goroth is an interpretation rather than an explicit statement of the lore.
This is going in circles. Refer to the first and second rebuttals that I made above. As to why the Slayer even fought Xal'Goroth, well, because it's a future/potential cosmic threat that needed killing? He unlocked its prison using astral keys and killed it inside, and the "fully awakened" or "release" shit described in the Codex entry simply couldn't happen there.
That's why I provided two interpretations in another reply:-
"The Codex explicitly qualifies Xal'Goroth's role, it was 'born to reset creation only when fate runs its course'. Whatever that phrase ultimately means, it establishes that Xal'Goroth's creation-resetting function is conditional, not something exercised indiscriminately at any moment. Since the game never establishes that this condition had been fulfilled when the Slayer encountered Xal'Goroth, we cannot simply assume the Codex's end-of-creation scenario was in effect during the boss fight".
The reason why I lean towards the "timer" explanation is because of the word "only". It implies some sort of a time or state bar on its creation devouring function.
The Wraiths' magic must be powerful af to hold such a cosmic creature in entrapment "within the depths of void" to the point that it had become "lost to ancient memory" and could nothing but linger "beneath the realms of existence".
Last edited:
ShionAH
He/Him- 21,197
- 7,902
He alr resists it and I could see a layer.
