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I’m definitely against Strange not being 4-B with his typical spells, especially considering that he’s stated to be capable of easily killing Green Scar Hulk if he wanted to.
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Doctor Strange's WTF Attack Potency
- Thread starter The_Impress
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Yes, and his Crimson Bands of Cyttorak could consistently imprison the old Savage/Childlike Hulk at high rage if I remember correctly, although the Hulk was usually portrayed as weaker back in those days.
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- #43
I don't think you know what the word typical implies Tracer.
It's extremely dumb to state 4-B spells are just what Doctor Strange would bust out, reasonably, at most scenarios.
Strange has no "typical" tier, even the Crimson Bands just have nonsensical scaling overall, and aren't consistent in the slightest. He will always use the spells at the level he has to use, he's a quintessential variable tier.
I will still vouch by the tiering suggested in the OP, having 4-B/5-A/3-A/Whatever keys is arbitrary distinction, he's Varies up to 2-A, possibly Low 1-C, and that's the only reasonable way to tier him, rest is us projecting our bias on an untierable character.
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Didn’t you literally say he should be 5-A earlier-
Like, don’t start calling things dumb when you advocated for basically the same thing, just with a different tier.
Like, don’t start calling things dumb when you advocated for basically the same thing, just with a different tier.
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I don’t even know what would support a 5-A tiering for Strange, aside from fighting the Mindless Ones (who are already inconsistent) and stomping a clone of Namor.
Although I would be fine with something like ‘Varies. 4-B, up to 2-A, possibly Low 1-C’ for his spells.
Although I would be fine with something like ‘Varies. 4-B, up to 2-A, possibly Low 1-C’ for his spells.
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I don't really think it has to do with specific spells being different tiers, only that Strange doesn't always use his full power in his individual spells. He can make magic strikes barely strong enough to knock out a 5-A or 4-B character. While at the same time, the same magic strikes can hurt 2-A to Low 1-C characters when he's serious.
Also, Zark is right there really is no such thing as a "Typical spell" he has a milliard of spells that all have various functions and can even individual spells can be used with much more or less effort. The 5-A she mentioned is a "What if" there's going to be a low end for casual Strange it should be 5-A. Similar to how Casual Hulk is 5-A but enraged/Serious Hulk is 4-B.
Though, I think everyone agrees his physical tier should probably be either Tier 10/9 or simply Unknown. And probably should just be on striking strength, no need to list it on his Attack Potency if he never uses it.
Also, Zark is right there really is no such thing as a "Typical spell" he has a milliard of spells that all have various functions and can even individual spells can be used with much more or less effort. The 5-A she mentioned is a "What if" there's going to be a low end for casual Strange it should be 5-A. Similar to how Casual Hulk is 5-A but enraged/Serious Hulk is 4-B.
Though, I think everyone agrees his physical tier should probably be either Tier 10/9 or simply Unknown. And probably should just be on striking strength, no need to list it on his Attack Potency if he never uses it.
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Our current tiering for him seems mostly fine to me as well. However, the most low-level "street-tier" Marvel characters tend to be 9-A. Shouldn't he scale from them physically?
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I don’t think Strange has ever physically fought with anyone like Daredevil or Hawkeye, so I’m iffy on scaling him to them.
As much as I don’t like Unknown tiers, that might be the best for Strange’s physicals unless someone can find some feats for him.
As much as I don’t like Unknown tiers, that might be the best for Strange’s physicals unless someone can find some feats for him.
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It's not, there's nothing against him being just a bit stronger than a normal real world human and there're things against him being higher, his tier there is clear.
His tiers with magic should also be as I pointed them out rather that with that "possibly Low 1-C" at the end as he can in fact do at least 1 spell that's on that level w/o prep or anything. It's not like since he can do that then maybe he can do other Low 1-C magic w/o prep too. The ones that use prep simply use prep and are also legic, w/o need for a "possibly" on them.
His tiers with magic should also be as I pointed them out rather that with that "possibly Low 1-C" at the end as he can in fact do at least 1 spell that's on that level w/o prep or anything. It's not like since he can do that then maybe he can do other Low 1-C magic w/o prep too. The ones that use prep simply use prep and are also legic, w/o need for a "possibly" on them.
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- Thread starter
- #51
Compared to 4-B I'd rather say 5-A is more where his spells would typically land, yes.
Both are dumb but 5-A is less dumber
And I'm supporting a Varies, Up to 2-A, not 5-A to 2-A, Strange has had as low as High 8-C spells at the absolute least
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That seems the best way to put it if we can't really gauge where he usually is I guess, kinda like Hank Pym
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Didn't PrinceOfTheMorning or @Sandman31 write our current Doctor Strange tiering? It seems quite well-informed, sensible, and elaborate already. Is there really an urgent need to change it?
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Yeah the page already has enough on it to make 4-B look fine, and Modern Strange was rated as 4-B before the pages were made, so I think the 4-B tiering should be there. The only thing I really think should be changed is removing 3-A since it seems pretty useless. It's not his base, nor is it his peak, and he doesn't have an overwhelming amount of feats for it to make it look like a big portion of his career.
Also quick sidenote, when Modern Strange was deleted, I recall plans to move the God of Magic key over. Was that forgotten or deemed unnecessary?
Also quick sidenote, when Modern Strange was deleted, I recall plans to move the God of Magic key over. Was that forgotten or deemed unnecessary?
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The God of Magic key would just be ‘2-A, possibly Low 1-C,’ right? Since Strange said it allowed him to feel more magic than ever before.
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Off of that statement yes, but honestly I think it might be a bit too inconsistent. Like, Odinforce Thor recently overpowered a Donald Blake with God of Magic Strange's power, I believe the wiki accepts Strange keeping the amp for the Damnation event, where he gets overpowered by Mephisto, and in the original run he had the pretty embarrassing Anti-Feat of the Void overpowering him in his original story.
I can get scans for all of these if you'd like, but I don't want to derail this thread too much.
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Not really.
Edit: Zelma, not Loki
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In that case, maybe it should keep the ‘At least 2-C, possibly 2-A’ tier that it had before the page was deleted.
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- Thread starter
- #59
I mean both aren't infallible, no disrespect. The points in the OP I think objectively note the problems with them
I don't know under what scenario does the 4-B scaling kick in, and what scenario the 3-A kicks in and what scenario does 2-A kick in, and I know with logic, Strange can perform spells far lower than 4-B, that the file refuses to acknowledge.
4-B and 3-A have feats, yes, but if you want me to produce feats without meaning I can provide hundreds of feats right now. It's a pretty important revision for the file itself.
Modern Strange isn't the best of pages we have ever written.
Do you know the Hulk has a **** ton of feats under Tier 8? Relevance of having said key is more important, 4-B has no relevance.
Guys the point isn't Strange HAS 4-B feats, it's that his 4-B feats are being given a pointless distinction from his High 8-C feats, and his 5-A feats, and his Low 1-C feats, and his Tier 7 feats.
If I provide 10 feats for each tier, would you add all those tiers onto the page? No, right?
Again just note the peak and be done with it, there is no reason to make needless keys for him
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As I already said, 4-B is the tier he has when on teams like the Defenders and the Avengers, and was agreed to have been his consistent level in the Modern era. While the Modern page wasn't the best written, it was still what was agreed upon, so unless his time on the Defenders, Avengers and the Modern era isn't relevant, the 4-B should stay. It's very different from something like 3-A which is a tier he rarely uses and doesn't work as a high-end.
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...do you know the Modern Strange page didn't go through the Tier 5 revisions because it was planned to be deleted regardless?
Almost all of Strange's 4-B feats would've been recontextualized to 5-A
Also again tell me right now, except for your arbitrary distinction right now, what logic total would distinguish his 4-B feats from far lower feats? Your bias?
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- #62
Also PrinceOfTheMorning and Sandman probably only considered the file from a Cosmology standpoint, at least I know Prince is unfamiliar with Mid to Low Tier Comics, and Strange is a character unique in the sense he's frequently collaborating with lower tiered characters
And I think anyone can vouch for me being quite knowledgeable in Low to Herald tier Marvel, to reliably know what I'm saying.
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Yes, I usually accept Impress' suggestions, and think that she has a generally sensible attitude regarding the sheer inconsistency of Marvel and DC Comics, but as far as I have understood, Doctor Strange used to require significant amounts of preparation to be a threat to characters at the level of classic Dormammu at his peak, and other cosmic entities, whereas he was generally shown as comparable to regular 5-A to 4-B superhero powerhouses in terms of raw power for instant everyday use.
It is important that we do not encourage our members or visitors to think that all characters who have ever caused him trouble are 2-A to Low 1-C.
It is important that we do not encourage our members or visitors to think that all characters who have ever caused him trouble are 2-A to Low 1-C.
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...and my revision is accounting for both scenarios.
Varies, Up to means he can be lower tier, and Strange just has 2-A spells which his page already lists, that he can use, just chooses not to.
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Randomly accusing him of bias seems pretty uncalled for.
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- #68
General would be an arbitrary distinction, you can just put any tier there and it'll be equivalent, Strange fights 5-A the same amount he fights 4-B.
We can go High 8-C to Low 1-C, lower and upper border considered.
...do you know what bias means? It was in context to choosing one tier over other despite both having arbitrary differences. I don't see how this is in any way uncalled for.
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I wasn't aware of that, but wasn't his 4-B off of saying he could defeat the Green Scar Hulk? While he was holding back for the World War Hulk storyline, the wiki still accepts the one from said storyline scaling about peak Savage.
Why's that? He's mostly scaled off of clones of characters like Hulk, Namor and Surfer. I don't see why their clones would be holding back.
How is "the power level he uses for a significant portion of his career" an arbitrary distinction? Also, my bias towards what?
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What do the rest of you think of changing the lower border to High 8-C instead?
Also, let's stop derailing with bickering please. I think that Impress just means that everybody are biased in their intuitive impressions of power levels to some degree in this case.
Also, let's stop derailing with bickering please. I think that Impress just means that everybody are biased in their intuitive impressions of power levels to some degree in this case.
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A lower border of High 8-C seems kinda arbitrary too though. Does he not have lower showings?
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I did find this tho. Lowest I have seen for Strange so far
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- Thread starter
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He can defeat Hulk with his Low 1-C key too, and his 3-A key, and every key because Strange surprisingly is haxxed as ****.
Oh God did we scale him off to 4-B off that statement? That's dumb
This is in context to Modern Strange, who doesn't scale off this. Also even then Hulk is rarely ever 4-B, Namor we straight up rate 5-A, and Surfer is REALLY wonky.
Because it's not a power he used for a significant portion of his career. You're making that part up.
Refer to my response to Tracer.
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Surprisingly, I'm fairly calm.
I think this should've been apparent that I just type more colorfully, the "hostility" is moreso playfulness.
I don't know why bias has suddenly become a slur, I didn't mean it in any sense wrong there, and if you note the context it's just a general English use to describe that situation
Honestly even old-timey Strange was 5-A and lower, more often than not, or reliant on non-AP hax.
If Strange is getting a general tier, I highly doubt it's going to be 4-B.
And I just believe in dropping the general tier, it's just pointless effort. We note the High end and the low end, and that is it, simple and effective and all-encompassing.
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I say not.
Base key, Varies, High 8-C to 2-A, possibly Low 1-C with spells. Up to 2-A, possibly Low 1-C with Preparation
I think this is a completely valid proposal.
Base key, Varies, High 8-C to 2-A, possibly Low 1-C with spells. Up to 2-A, possibly Low 1-C with Preparation
I think this is a completely valid proposal.
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Confluctor gave an example for Spider-Man tanking one of Doctor Strange's blast, that's the lowest tier I can think Doctor Strange being too, so that's the low-end covered
High end already has justifications present in the file itself.
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