Doctor Strange Revisions

[Gwynbleiddd]

So yesterday i finally saw the movie and i have to say, i disagree with plenty of the stats they have.

I)Kaecilius

His physical stats: He is ranked as wall leve for breaking through a wall, but he first used matter manipulation on the wall to make it weaker dramatically decreasing the destroyed volume to an extent that may not be wall level.

His AP with Magic: He is ranked "at least Building level, possibly Multi City Block level".But the spell that destroyed the temples required time to charge (indicating that they were far more powerful than his average spells) and he had the help of two of his followers.Mutli City Block level is completely unreasonable, the destruction we saw on Hong Kong was caused by the portal on the dark dimension, Kaecilius and his followers only had to destroy the temple to shut down the shield.

His City level stats are fine.

II)The Ancient One and Doctor Strange

They are rated as 8-A for not percieving other MCU villians as threats which isn't a good justification for their stats considering these:

1.Doctor Strange got his powers after Age of Ultron so wether he personally believes he could have beaten him holds little value.

2.The Ancient One and the rest of the high ranked sorcerers could easily defeat Ultron via hax alone, aka trapping him inside the mirror dimension where they have matter and gravity manipulation (and the Ancient One is City level).So yeah they could have beaten him without being on that level of power in the real world.

3.In the movie they say the deal with the mystical threats.But Ultron wasn't a mystical threat so they really had no reason to bother, (especially since there is a team of heros ready to protect the earth from physical threats).

4.There is an entire order of sorcerers (if you can call it that way) with several masters, the sorcerer supreme (Ancient One) and tens or even hundreds magic practitioners so even if they could take on Ultron via shear strength, it wouldn't necessarily mean that one magician could do it.

Speed: Their speed is subsonic for reacting to magical arrows yet i don't remember the movie having any magical arrows.Also usually arrows don't go beyond 100 m/s (mach 0.29) so if anything they should be ranked as Subsonic, MHS+ while on their astral forms (seeing how Strange and the Ancient One could percieve lightning and one of Kaecilius' followers could fight with Strange's astral form).

My suggestion's for their Stats:

Strange:

Attack Potency: At least Street level with magical weapons (see calc i did here ), possibly Building level with other spells (via powerscaling from kaelicius)

Durability: Street level (Survived assults from Kaelicius' which send him flying a few meters back), possibly Building level with shields (personally i don't remember him tanking anything on that level)

Ancient One

Attack Potency: At least Street level with magical weapons, at least Building level with other spells (Superior to Kaelicius) | City level (Can match Kaelicius while inside the Mirror Dimension)

Durability: Street level via powerscaling (didn't immedietally die from a fall from hundreds of meters), Building level with shields

Kaelicius

Attack Potency: At least Street level with magical weapons, Building level with other spells and matter manipulation (Destroyed the temples in Hong Kong and London) | City level (same as now)

Durability: Street level physically, Building level with shields

Dormammu:

We haven't seen him outside of his dimension so we can't know if he can consume a planet, also he only seems to transfer the planets in his own dimension which hardly counts as Planet level.

Attack Potency: Universe level (His Dark Dimension can consume the physical matter of the entire universe)

Durability: Unknown, possibly Universe level

Note: Since Dormammu can't affect time it is unreasonable to think that he can destroy a space time continioum.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I disagree with practically everything you just said.

1. It's not about Strange himself. It's about repeated statements by Kevin Feige and movie people that the Sorcerers are above the Avengers and the reason they never intervened was because they viewed threats such as Loki or Ultron to be insignificant, meaning they could easily defeat them. And you can't just say this is because of Hax.

2. Read Above.

3. They deal with mystical threats that happen to be on a scale far higher than anything in the previous Marvel movies.

4. Assuming the entire order would gang up on Ultron is ridiculous. The entire order was not sent or acted to stop Kaecillus, who they actually considered a threat. There is no reason for them to send more than a few.

5. Dormammu at the bare minimum can consume planets with ease. And he also holds absolute control of a timeless universe in the sense that space and time do not apply, and he predates time itself. Being the embodiment / controller of a universe like he is is Low 2-C, not 3-A.

http://collider.com/doctor-strange-sorcerers-mcu-explained/

Here are the WoG, by the way, coming from Kevin Feige himself:

"There are people inhabiting the same world that are stopping buildings from falling down, robots from doing this, aliens from doing that ― these people in this movie are stopping inter-dimensional forces from wiping out all of reality.

So although it doesn't necessarily come up, we've always assumed that the sorcerers have bigger fish to fry when they hear there's something in a city or there's a bank being robbed. They're not thinking about it. They're thinking if we don't keep vigilant our sense of reality will disappear, and there won't be a bank to rob and there won't be a city to be conquered."

Also, have you read the Canon Prequel Comic? You should. I will post feats from it here.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Feats for the Canon Prelude Comics

• A novice from Kamar-Taj steals a powerful relic from the Sanctum. With it she quickly covers a huge portion of Londo in darkness.
• Wong, Kaecillus (Good at this time) and two other masters face her , and their combined magic counters and overcomes her scepter.

That is the combined power of 4 regular Sorcerers. This isn't accounting the Kaecillus we see in the movie, or The Ancient One.

Now for the speed feat:

• A criminal band in China obtains a mystical item called The Arrow of Apollon, and uses it to terrorize a small village . As you can see, the arrow is far faster than real ones.
• The Ancient One herself goes to stop it , and reacts to the arrow's speed

These feats are both consistent with the WoG statements that the Sorcerers > The Avengers and every villain so far.

 

[Yunthal]

Dr Strange Multi city block in the wiki, C'mon! In the Movie he stoped the time and make a loop in 2 diferent dimension in the same moment!

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Time Loop =/= AP

 

[Yunthal]

Time Loop =/= AP

so so, he can Go back as much time as it was before the Big Bang, or accelerate it so much that it would get entropy.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

He never demonstrated that, and that doesn't translate to Attack Potency, and he can still be affected by debree flying at his face while time-rewinding, so he'd die either way.

 

[Yunthal]

He never demonstrated that, and that doesn't translate to Attack Potency, and he can still be affected by debris flying at his face while time-rewinding, so he'd die either way.

What?? Time Gem can freely manipulate time itself, it certainly is. Besides that he can open Dormmamu's dimension and destroy that dimension too

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

He can't destroy a dimension. Also, please speak proper english, you're getting quite a lot of typos and it's hard to follow.

 

[Yunthal]

He can't destroy a dimension. Also, please speak proper english, you're getting quite a lot of typos and it's hard to follow.

English is not my first language, and I just proved that he can. Focus in debate, not in my english, please.

 

[AzathothHP]

Ignore what he said about your English Yunthal, your English is more than understandable. That's just an extremely rude reply from him.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

He can't.

 

[BarryAllen2.0]

Woah woah woah....DS never openned Dormamu's Dimension and He can't destroy it either, no such feats exists.

 

[Shock97]

@Matthew Schroeder

What was going on with that much flaunted "New York being reality warped" scene we saw alot in the trailers. Who or what was doing that?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

@Matthew Schroeder
What was going on with that much flaunted "New York being reality warped" scene we saw alot in the trailers. Who or what was doing that?

Kaecilius and the Ancient One.

 

[Shock97]

@Matthew Schroeder
What was going on with that much flaunted "New York being reality warped" scene we saw alot in the trailers. Who or what was doing that?

Kaecilius and the Ancient One.

Thanks. So the profiles do have that now.

 

[Antvasima]

With all due respect, and no offense intended, towards Kkapoios, I think that Matthew seems to make sense above.

 

[GreatestSin]

Woah woah woah....DS never openned Dormamu's Dimension and He can't destroy it either, no such feats exists.

thats true but he did slow down/stop time in the final battle, alongside rewinding it and using time in a different universe,

and i thought as long as nothing else is shown that time manipulation will be assumed to work on the entire universe, DS certainly used time manipulation on specific objects but in the final battle he affected everything, even his comrades which he needed to free, so i would say that at least his range should get universe level while he manipulates time

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Universal Range Time Manipulation is kinda standard when dealing with time-stop, rewinds or fast-forwards.

 

[TheMightyRegulator]

Nah, some have only showed planetary range.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

How does that work? The rest of the universe continues to have time progression?

 

[TheMightyRegulator]

Presumably, though they never show us. It's usually just indicated by a statement describing how the planet's time has stopped. Unfortunately I don't have a quote/scan or anything.

 

[Gwynbleiddd]

When it comes to time stopping i agree with Matthew, it would make little sense for only one region to be affected.

Now back to the main discusion.

@Matthew The quote you wrotte doesn't say that Sorcerers are more powerful than the Avengers, it only says that they have to worry for bigger threats and so far they've only "defeated" said threats in indirect ways, Agamoto building the temples to prevent Dormammu to consume it, Sorcerers defending the temples from inside threats (other sorcerers etc) and Strange trapped Dormammu in a time loop.

Low 2-C is for characters that can control/create/destroy a 4 dimensional space time continioum but Dormammu's universe doesn't have time which only makes it a 3 space dimensional universe which isn't enough for him to be Low 2-C.

I don't see a reason why Apollon's arrow would be so fast, it can shoot energy but its speed depends on the person that fires the bow.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

The quote does say that the Sorcerers don't bother with threats seem in the previous movies cause they are always handling larger threats. People such as Ultron or Loki or Malekith are non-entities to them. And while yes, they do have Hax, they also have direct weaponry and energy projection. Hax isn't the only reason they have power.

Dormammu has to be 4th Dimensional if he predates time itself and embodies a universe where past, present and future are one.


No it doesn't. The arrow is shown hitting numerous buildings far away in seconds, and both times it was shot by the same person.

 

[Gwynbleiddd]

It's not that the past, present and future are the same in Dormammu's universe, time simply doesn't exist there, he doesn't predate it, he simply doesn't coexist with it.

This entire argument doesn't prove anything for the power of the sorcerers, it is all a matter of perspective.When they have to worry about beings that could destroy the planet of course they wouldn't care about other threats, but that doesn't make them superior to said threats.

The arrow just fired 5-6 energy blasts (or scattered to 5-6 different pieces) and hit the houses, and the feat barely shows anything remarkable regarding its speed.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Did you miss the multiple statements of Dormammu predating time itself? Cause those are a thing, and Dormammu is 4D.

It does prove a lot. You are simply assuming the lowest possible interpretation for the sorcerers. 8-A is consistent with intent, WoG and feats.

The feat shows that the arrow is faster than regular arrows as is reaches all those far away houses, hundreds of meters away, in seconds. The Ancient One reacting to it at point blank is a Subsonic feat at least.

 

[GreatestSin]

Presumably, though they never show us. It's usually just indicated by a statement describing how the planet's time has stopped. Unfortunately I don't have a quote/scan or anything.

but that is only proving the rule,

as long as it isnt mentioned that the time manipulation is limited to some specific limits the general rule should be that it works on universe scale...

 

[BarryAllen2.0]

something I want to point out, AO said that sorcerers use energy from different dimensions to use Magic and what not...at the end when Mordo makes what's his name cripple again, simply taking the energy he was using wouldn't matter being the guy could just pull on more. It's more likely Mordo took the energy AND locked his ability to pull energy again or just took that ability from him ingeneral.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

He obviously killed the guy

 

[Yunthal]

If he just stop the time, not dimensional. But he can back and forward, with no restrictions(cause Gem is absolut). It this means that he can back until Big Bang or forward until the entropy of the universe making him dimensional. In other hand He didint open the portal for Dormammu's dimension in movie but he can make it, he read hall the book and learn that magic.

 

[BarryAllen2.0]

It's stated that they can already make portals to anywhere in the multi-verse so no infinity stone is required. And sure, maybe he can rewind time to the point that a particular dimension doesn't exist but that still falls under Time Manipulation no other stat will be inccreased because of it and we don't know if he has the power to rewind that far back. We already have proof that not everyone can control a Infinity stone to it's max potential. I'm not against the Idea but we should wait before wanking.