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I agree with OP
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DMC's new updates
- Thread starter RandommmDebater
- Start date
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Dude why are you bumping?
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wrong thread mb
Tanin_iver
He/Him- 526
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Welcome to VSBW.
As a new member you are requested to go through this and this page and the various sub-pages. Its very important that u are aware of the site's various rules and standards and the tiering system before you post a CRT like that.
Also before making a major CRT like a Tier change, consult verse supporters first. For DMC you can meet and discuss with the supporters in this thread.
Now onto your CRT:
1. For the Chen statements the original context (at least according to the English version) were basically adjectives used to describe his omniscience, not having the concept of space and time basically meant he wasn't limited in his Cosmic awareness, clairvoyance and retrocognition, he could see everything regardless of where it is and when it is.
Also, transcending concepts doesn't make you outerversal in this site, cosmology does. Moreover, the outerversal tiers are currently going through a revision and are subject to change.
Also, Chen already has Concept and Fate manip through other means iirc.
2. Tony already explained it. We are waiting for the global release before using any POC stuff.
3. Yes, Void should get Omnipresence albeit limited in range to within the castle, since we don't have feats of his omnipresence beyond his Castle.
4. Uhh, Chen gets Omniscience as a power bestowed by the Beastheads and the Beastheads itself should also possess I suppose. For Mundus though, we don't automatically give the creations abilities to its creators, so I'm not sure about that, he may get. I'm neutral for Mundus.
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Yes reality warping but im glad to ad them in his page
Im so disagree with your poc statements. It's like i delete dmc5 from my pc and say dante hasn't sdt only because I've deleted. However, why you didn't put this point before replacing old data instead of new data??? Also all of dmc's outer-high outer feats can't be support on this site so only 9D feats but ok i waits until full game release but i still want to put infinite stamina now
I say again. It's not a castle. If it's a castle so all of omnipresent characters are only in a castle (because they only exist in their time-space not other time-spaces). Void in dmc2 novel is human world+demon world and demon world is infinite (i dunno about human world but human world is at least +Universal) which means void mundus exists in all of a infinite time and space. So hell yeah he is omnipresent
Mundus never created any creation who is superior to him. He knows all of nightmare powers and he has a full knowledge about his creations. Mundus created beastheads knowledge and intelligence so he has that knowledge and intelligence too (according that all of mundus' creations are inferior than him and mundus is superior to them in every point). Also he understood dante's location serval times in dmc1 and understood dante, vergil and eva's location after sparda's death and sent trish to the exact location of devil may cry to meet dante. And vm has a infinite world and has a full knowledge and surveillance on it. So he is omniscience too (also he scales to his og counterpart who is able to create beings like beastheads who has infinite knowledge)
Palito266
He/Him- 236
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I suppose i could agree with point 3, but that omnipresence is only in the range in like a castle, basically Mundus's throne or how big this is.
About point 4 i can agree with it being only for Chen, Power Bestowal page makes it very clear that the granter isn't implied to have that same power unless shown or stated otherwise.
Everything else is just plain wrong, but Tony already explained it so meh.
About point 4 i can agree with it being only for Chen, Power Bestowal page makes it very clear that the granter isn't implied to have that same power unless shown or stated otherwise.
Everything else is just plain wrong, but Tony already explained it so meh.
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I agree with the addtions then now that both Tony and Palito have given their input.
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Wut? Why would you deleting your copy of the game be the same as the developers updating and deleting content from a game? It makes no sense
1) I didn't understand a thing you mean like why would time and space be concepts or why is it relevant?
3) in the novel, duh
4) wot?
Ngl this gives me "YT vs shorts comments" vibes
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1) I don't care about it if you can't understand it, ok i wait until full game release but im still disagree with this point. Also they replaced not deleted former beta information. Also i have former beta and it has all of 9D or infinite stamina feats.
2) i didn't know that some feats like transcending concepts of time and space, platonic concapts, Jungian archetypes and etc don't scale here. I asked my friend why and he said these feats can't be scale on vsb, only csap. And after hearing that, i remove my ap request and ok that 1-C feats are still good for here
3) if you understood it, so ok
4) read it again
Yeah ok you can get that vibe, because i have YouTube channel that's why you you give yt vs shorts vibes. But i removed ap request, so don't reply about it anymore
2) i didn't know that some feats like transcending concepts of time and space, platonic concapts, Jungian archetypes and etc don't scale here. I asked my friend why and he said these feats can't be scale on vsb, only csap. And after hearing that, i remove my ap request and ok that 1-C feats are still good for here
3) if you understood it, so ok
4) read it again
Yeah ok you can get that vibe, because i have YouTube channel that's why you you give yt vs shorts vibes. But i removed ap request, so don't reply about it anymore
Palito266
He/Him- 236
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Huh? How??
Jesus if by Jungian Archetypes you mean the Unus Mundus...
Also platonic concepts in DMC? Really? Where or when has that been stated? Not to mention this wiki no longer uses platonic concepts and uses independent universal concepts instead.
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******* called it lol
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I'm sorry for my sharp tone, I've to work on my speaking
Anyway, im so sorry
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The despair embodied from devil may cry is not only the emboidement of despair itself, it is also stated in the game files that he's the possessor of awesome dignity and has a perfect body. This perfection idea directly comes from the Greek mythology, in which it was believed that love is an all-powerful source that completes beings. For example, a woman and a man loving each other is represented as the two bodies completed, AKA fused togheter, so it is therefore represented as the true ideal of a true perfect human being/true beauty/true perfection in the DMC verse as an objective reality, and the same goes for every other living being on the planet
He is also referred to as a alchemical and perfect, everlasting being multiple times.
Click here to see
A representative of a platonic concept, through cross reference back with Mundus and going through platos definition of a platonic concept, this meta is consistent
Click here to see
This is spectacularly consistent and shown multiple times in DMC italic.
Platonic concepts are atemporal, this is also consistent with DMC’s narrative multiple times
Click here to see
決してダメージを受けるとは思えない闇の体が、その痛みに震え、唸る。
「いい声だ。もっと喚きな」
凄まじい銃声が轟き、無数の弾丸が輝ける矢となって魔王に突き刺さる。
何の変哲もないただの鉛の玉が、圧倒的な存在であるはずの魔王をさらに苦しめ、痛めつけ、挙げ句の果てには這いつくばらせる。
無論のこと、魔王とても黙ってやられっ放しでいる訳ではない。
その無数の腕が剣を振り下ろし、あるいは魔力の矢を雨のごとく降らせ、雷を放ち、小賢しい挑戦者を葬らんとする。
「甘いぜ、ムンドゥス。おまえの手の内はもう、あらかた読めてるんだ」
その言葉のとおり、ダンテのフットワークは軽く、無に等しい空間を駆け抜け、ほとんどの攻撃を完全に避け切っていた。
なおかつカウンターで繰り出される攻撃が痛烈に魔王を襲い、深手を負わせていく。
魔王は...ムンドゥスは理解できなかった。
彼こそは絶対の存在であり、永遠に、時の流れからさえ独立した支配者として、森羅万象のすべてを統べることができるはずであったのだ。
しかし今ここに、彼と比肩し得る力を備えた相手がいる。
いや、もしかするとこの相手は、彼をも凌ぐ力を備えているのかもしれない。
The dark body, which was thought to never take damage, groaned and shuddered in pain.
"That's a good voice. Give me more."
Fierce gunshots roared, and countless bullets turned into arrows of light that ran through the Demon King.
The mere balls of lead that weren't anything special made even the supposed overwhelming being that is the Demon King suffer in pain, hurting him and even eventually cause him to creep away.
But of course, the Demon King wasn't just going to sit back and let himself be beaten.
His countless arms swung down swords, rained down arrows of demonic power, and fired bolts of lightning, all in an attempt to bury the insolent challenger.
"You are naive, Mundus. I already know what you're capable of."
As he said that, Dante's footwork was light and he ran through the empty space, avoiding most of the attacks.
Furthermore, his counterattacks were painfully delivered upon the Demon King, inflicting fatal wounds.
The Demon King, Mundus, could not understand this.
He was supposed to be an absolute being, an eternal ruler free from even the flow of time, and to rule over all things in creation.
Yet now, here was an opponent who had power that could rival his--
Nay, perhaps this opponent is even more powerful than he is
Click here to see
Platonic forms are abstract objects in the context of Stanford's encyclopedia of Philosphy and the aleph numbers are ordinal numbers as per transfinite arithmetic and those "abstract objects" are denoted by those "ordinal numbers" hence alephs scale to Platonism making them Outer to Outer+
Click here to see
So we’ve already inferred that Argosax is defined exactly as a platonic concept
There’s not much more we can even possibly discuss about this part at this point, since all of this has put DMC under both major definitions of Outerversal, on VS Battles Wiki, and Character Stats And Profiles Wiki, the mainly regarded sites.
Click here to see
So in conclusion to one portion of Dante’s scaling, every demon in DMC that reaches ‘Demon King Tier’ fits under both definitions of Outerversal.
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Bro i think you've been confused !!!
I'm talking about void mundus not og mundus. Void in dmc2 novel is human world+demon world and demon world is infinite (i dunno about human world but human world is at least +Universal) which means void mundus exists in all of a infinite time and space. So he is omnipresent
Also about intelligence, i say we must add a new key dante with "Beastheads powers" and gave him an omniscience intelligence in that key to
And we can gave chen omniscience intelligence too
And hell yeah we can give it too mundus too.
Also Mundus never created any creation who is superior to him. For example he knows all of nightmare powers (vov) and he has a full knowledge about his creations. Mundus created beastheads knowledge and intelligence so he has that knowledge and intelligence too (according that all of mundus' creations are inferior than him and mundus is superior than them in every point). Also he understood dante's location serval times in dmc1 and understood dante, vergil and eva's location after sparda's death and sent trish to the exact location of devil may cry for meeting dante. And vm has a infinite world and has a full knowledge and surveillance on it. So he is omniscience too (also he scales to his og counterpart who is able to create beings like beastheads who has infinite knowledge)
Palito266
He/Him- 236
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You're extrapolating the definition of greek mythology towards DMC just because... they called Argosax's body perfect?
Okay, if we ignore this and say that VSBW uses platonic concepts, then this is complete boogus. A platonic concept often times needs these requirements to be considered a platonic concept:
- Predate Reality
- Being perfect, immutable and transcendent ideas
- Form/affect reality and it's laws
- If possible, that minor concepts come from it
- Exist independently from the physical limitations of the universe
And if we look at Argosax, it is only stated that his BODY is perfect, not that his IDEA is one, even if we got over this we would have more problems since he is mutable because of Dante killing him, and when Dante kills him "despair" doesn't stop existing or have any altercations on reality, further implying that the despair embodied thing is just some sort of title and not an actual abstract existence shit.
What i was talking about is that the darkness/void that is Void Mundus only exists inside his castle, which should be the same castle as we see in Mission 22 in DMC, so he gets that range of omnipresence.
Besides, do you actually have proof of VM existing across time and space? Because if that was true then Dante wouldn't have had to fight the army of Trishs's.
I'd say virtual omniscience is better because Chen got stomped by Dante, unless you wanna give Dante resistance to omniscience (lol)
If Mundus was really that smart/omniscient/precog or shit, he would've known the location of Dante and Vergil waaaaay before they grew up and could handle middle-tier demons. About the VM part it's the same as above, do you have proof of Void Mundus existing across time and space and having knowledge about it? If so then it could qualify.
By the way where are you getting the "Mundus has full knowledge about his creations" from?
Akashachann
He/Him- 65
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I said don't reply about it anymore but you replied about it, why????
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No not only because of perfect body, also because of that fact he can switch his gender to both female and male
Also demon in dmc existed before reality and human world, i don't know about argosax and mundus but most likely it works for them too, so argosax existed before reality (most likely)
He is being perfect, and yes he is immutable (if you wanna say no he isn't because he has been killed by dante, i must say immutability not means you can't be killed by other beings, it means you can't be died by age or Sickness or natural things, also he can change the laws of physics, due to his warping reality power)
And yes he transcendent ideas (transcdndent ideas: transcendent goes beyond normal limits or boundaries
And according to that if argosax exists in human world, it would be destroyed, yes he can transcdndent beyond normal limits and he hasn't any limits) (also arius serval times mentioned that agrosax transcendent all beings)
Argosax can effect/warp reality and it's laws, so yeah can get this point too
And he already exists independently from the physical limitations of the universe (according to that he can only exists in demon world without any connections to physical limitations of the universe, also according to that his existence would destroy universe and human world, he can get this point too)
I said that immutability not means to killing by other beings, only dieng because of his age, mortality (and in the games serval times mentioned that argosax is immortal) and natural things
And after killing argosax, disappointment and dispair have been destroyed too (according to that dmc characters have been motivated loooool)
And i must say argosax is an actual abstract existence (From the moment of their birth, names are one of the most sacred things to demons. They represent not only power, but also the concept of their own existence, the basic principles of which predate even the creation of the demon world itself.
It manifests itself as part of the soul that forms them, and their dark hearts
Now lets analyze this quote closely, "The power of a name. From the moment of their birth, names are one of the most sacred things to demons".
They represent not only power, but also the concept of their own existence, the basic principles of which predate even the creation of the demon world itself. It manifests itself as part of the soul that forms them, and their dark hearts." Notice how names are the thing that predates creation and that's because demons are a conceptual makeup of reality's basic principles given a physical form thanks to their names; a conceptual existence if you will. However, the name is just an aspect of the demon's soul and while it supplies them with power it has little to do with what makes a soul 9D since even human souls have this 9D feature and they do not operate by the aforementioned names system (both poc and dmc3 manga accepted this)
And so "the disappear embodiment" isn't only a title, it's argosax power and existance.
Also i didn't want say dmc is 1-A in vsbattles, you said does dmc have platonic concapts and i said yes. And also there are some people who can better explain platonic concapts in dmc and i suggest you to accord them
Also if we end plato discussion, we can talk about other points
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Lmfao
Look, we don't scale shit based on real life stuff, we scale based on what the media has and that's it.
Just because DMC has names and Mundus doesn't mean it runs on the jungian Archetypes bs ******** ass youtubers try to sell and just because DMC makes a vague reference to something it doesn't mean it's the exact same thing. You always need in universe explanations and if you can't provide them then it isn't real.
Also you are still using poc, poc scans were deleted and they are NOT in the new version of the game
Look, we don't scale shit based on real life stuff, we scale based on what the media has and that's it.
Just because DMC has names and Mundus doesn't mean it runs on the jungian Archetypes bs ******** ass youtubers try to sell and just because DMC makes a vague reference to something it doesn't mean it's the exact same thing. You always need in universe explanations and if you can't provide them then it isn't real.
Also you are still using poc, poc scans were deleted and they are NOT in the new version of the game
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I don't wanna say dmc on vsbattles is 1-A (at least currently)
But he wants me to explain him the platonic concapts of dmc
Also i never scaled Jungian archetypes here, so why are you saying Jungian archetypes doesn't work here?
And ok i wait until full game release but i still glad to put infinite stamina for dmc characters (cuz i never see any demons get rest and they continue the fighting without rest, currently the proofs got replaced with new information and although the former beta is available, ok i agree with your non-sense debunk)
But about mundus you are being too strict, a creator always has his/her creations abilities (cuz his/her creations has been created by his/her power not by others)
So mundus has all of his creations abilities. And don't mention Pokémon here cuz they are fodders, the relation between mundus and beastheads are like the relation between knull and venom (the creators have all of their creations abilities, cuz their creations has been created by their creator poweeeerrrrrr) so please be agree with this request
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Guuuuuuyyyyyssssss
Please say something
Please say something
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People largely disagree with this which is probably why nothing much has come from it.
Palito266
He/Him- 236
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Oh i see what you did there.
Well in Power Scaling you often times need more than subtle references to mythological stuff from the real world to qualify for higher tiers, like-so if said reference is actually important in the verse or it has more context to be classified as such. And as we know, DMC 2 is anything but complete.
The thing that you seem to be missing is that for a Platonic Concept to be classified as such it needs to be abstract, like any concept. Argosax is not an abstract being, the only thing abstract is his name.
Now you'll probably say that if Argosax can do that and the name is his source of power, then surely the name COULD qualify as Type 1/Platonic, no? Well, the ACTUAL name has to be stated to do those things, not the object it is linking.
Not only that, but minor concepts do not emanate from that, andthe alteration/modification/erasure of the NAME itself is never implied to AFFECT reality itself, that just Argosax like i said earlier.
Yeah i'll go by parts in here
1) That Name definition you're using belongs to PoC, which we no longer use and has been disregarded here.
2) Humans and other beings can still feel despair, for example in Visions of V, Dante made V feel the passives of a demon but augmented, which are madness, fear and desperation. You'd need to prove that EVERYONE in the PLANET or HUMAN WORLD doesn't feel despair after the defeat of Argosax.
3) The actual definition of "Immutable" is just that you can't be changed or altered, what this means is that a Platonic Concept CANNOT and WILL NOT be manipulated by something lower like physical beings or things like that, which you haven't proven for Argosax.
If it truly was, then we'd see people losing the ability to feel despair in reality, but again as i said that isn't implied and didn't happen.
Platonic Concepts aren't 1-A, pronto. About the archetype stuff i could agree they exist within DMC but it's something that i found out in Trinity of Fates and it never was brought up as an actual argument, besides in this wiki they don't really give anything aside for more proof for CM Type 2 (maybe?) which DMC already has.
Nope, you can't just give a rating to a character just because you haven't "seen" them get tired doesn't mean they don't.
Also "non-sense debunk" bullshit, i played through 1.0 (BiliBili), 2.0 (1st Closed Beta) and 2.0 (Open Beta) and there was literally nothing there, no scans, no 9-D no nada. So if you want to talk about non-sensicalities you better research what you're going to argue, because it just seems to me like you know nothing at all and you're just following someone like a sheep.
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> alteration/modification/erasure of the NAME itself is never implied to AFFECT reality itself,
BBruh what? Did you not check the manga
BBruh what? Did you not check the manga
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