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DMC Downgrade... kinda
- Thread starter Tony_di_bugalu
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Im in the middle of that >:V
Apparently sonic has a profile on a blog ready to be posted as he knew the day would come when I destroyed the scaling
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I bet you going to make all the revision, then forget to applies them at the end, usual
That's fast
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He's not called Sonic for nothing
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This time it's not that I forget, it's just that I want to fix the demon physiology and add everything there as the current page will get outdated fast
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I did made the blog for Helfilth. Can you implement it as a page?
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I'm not on PC, so........probably should ask others
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I decided to hold that piece of information for another time but I don't see any relevance for it anymore
HelloThere1089
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You can. Believe in yourself.
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Wait, if canon DMC5 Dante is involved, how does he compare power wise, and what does he do?
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Yeah, that seems like it could be a big deal that you should lead with, not be all "heh heh, one more card up my sleeve" after your case looks shakier without it. And give us some IN-GAME stuff on that, not just more Discord Screenshots™ alone.
After we get some clarification on what if anything mainline Dante does in PoC -- which might not necessarily affect the core matter of how we approach canonicity, but it could be worth hearing about -- I will recap this thread for those joining in or otherwise needing a summary. Sans the goofy bits such as people linking to the Wikipedia page for Occam's Razor and so on.
After we get some clarification on what if anything mainline Dante does in PoC -- which might not necessarily affect the core matter of how we approach canonicity, but it could be worth hearing about -- I will recap this thread for those joining in or otherwise needing a summary. Sans the goofy bits such as people linking to the Wikipedia page for Occam's Razor and so on.
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Also, the edits making people 2-A deleted some references and such that are part of the existing scaling, so if this gets accepted let me revert the pages by rolling them back. After that, add the Helfilth page to the Wiki, and then we can discuss scaling later.
Honestly, that should have been the first step, not updating core characters to that tier. That's how we ended up with the Wiki pages currently describing two 2-As needing to team up to beat a 4-A.
Honestly, that should have been the first step, not updating core characters to that tier. That's how we ended up with the Wiki pages currently describing two 2-As needing to team up to beat a 4-A.
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Don't take it too literally btw. He also said just now it's his opinion for more clarification but he did made sense soo far coz like... I don't think Vergil ever gained SDT without being separated into V and Urizen unlike PoC Vergil who experienced the events way different. This doesn't explain how PL Dante knew about V soo there is definitely more involved then PoC timeline.
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To the point, who is this "Peerless Legend Dante" and what does he do in PoC? Again, we want IN-GAME footage/sourcing, not someone's Discord comments.
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Already told you the situation with PL. Why don't you just check it out yourself:
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I suppose we should make more PoC profiles and summarize the scaling for every character and story in there.
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Isn't asking the creators direct questions against the wiki rules?
HelloThere1089
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Not a creator afaik. Not a powerscaling question afaik.
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Developer in general and etc. If it didn't have relevance within the game's things, it wouldn't be something usable.
But the editing rules don't say that they have to be powerscaling questions.
HelloThere1089
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Idk. I only saw official moderator.
I initially thought by against the rules, you meant stuff that'll get you in RVR. Regarding the validity of the reference, the rule is very weirdly phrases since it uses words like generally and usually. Makes it sound like a spectrum. The information given by the mod is neither brief nor vague. It's about the length an author would talk about an interview question. But treat the social media thing as you will.
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Ok, so the DMC5 Dante we see in "Peerless Legend" and possibly by extension "Alchemical Gambler" & "Charging Voltage" (two missions where he fights and beats Hellfilth even though that plot seems incomplete) might be the real one; nothing in-game to confirm or deny what that Discord guy said. I don't know if he has any AUTHORITY, but I think it's a fair question and not a lead-on to ask what is even going on in this mess. These haphazard unfinished storylines with longplays scattered across single videos scattered across multiple YT channels are driving me a bit batty. But I'm gonna clear up a few scaling things before the recap even if canonicity is the main thing that might override all this anyway. Don't worry, thread-joiners, I'll skip to the relevant stuff when it's recap time.
Remind me, does (a) DMC3 Dante fight Hellfilth or any stronger characters? So, DMC3D's page justifies him as 2-A just because Hellfilth didn't want to encounter him. That doesn't seem like a big deal, there are plenty of people weaker than I am whom I don't want to encounter. Hellfilth kills (a) DMC3 Vergil without any issue, too, maybe he was distracted but he didn't seem tired so we don't have much putting them on the same level. One could as easily say (that this) DMC3 Dante ran away offscreen as say he defeated Hellfilth offscreen. What I'm getting at is that it seems only DMC5 Dante & Vergil (as in the "Alchemical Gambler" mission) can contend with Hellfilth -- at least explicitly 'cuz this game is a big mess and it's hard to be 100% on much of anything! But that might be worth noting regardless of whether we make new pages or decide to keep PoC stuff on the main ones.
[Also, I might hop off in a bit, but I'll do the recap shortly after coming back tomorrow & double-checking what's relevant and not.]
Remind me, does (a) DMC3 Dante fight Hellfilth or any stronger characters? So, DMC3D's page justifies him as 2-A just because Hellfilth didn't want to encounter him. That doesn't seem like a big deal, there are plenty of people weaker than I am whom I don't want to encounter. Hellfilth kills (a) DMC3 Vergil without any issue, too, maybe he was distracted but he didn't seem tired so we don't have much putting them on the same level. One could as easily say (that this) DMC3 Dante ran away offscreen as say he defeated Hellfilth offscreen. What I'm getting at is that it seems only DMC5 Dante & Vergil (as in the "Alchemical Gambler" mission) can contend with Hellfilth -- at least explicitly 'cuz this game is a big mess and it's hard to be 100% on much of anything! But that might be worth noting regardless of whether we make new pages or decide to keep PoC stuff on the main ones.
[Also, I might hop off in a bit, but I'll do the recap shortly after coming back tomorrow & double-checking what's relevant and not.]
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From what I can gather, DMC5 Dante (possibly the main series DMC5 Dante no less) beats Filthy. Outside of that, Filthy seems to have everyone outclassed, and DMC3 versions are never able to beat her and explicitly lose against her.
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That's not their logic. Its just standard wiki practice. If PoC is an alternate timeline there's no backscaling in most cases. It's why there's multiple alternate DC/Marvel characters who are rated lower than Tier 2/1 despite being alternate TL versions of those people.
Just being canon isn't enough for back scaling because it's already established as an alternate universe.
Ser_Hakim_Dayne
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Does this also apply to UES and related hax?
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Then that would be their logic or standard, ergo the logic of the wiki as it assumes that a minor difference in events which while still flanked by the other mainline events to a T is still enough to warrant scaling differentials of all kinds simply by basis of "alternate timeline." If I had know this to be the case, I probably would not have wasted my time arguing PoC 2.0's case here. That would be my mistake.
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Personal abilities will not scales, shared, universal abilities however scales
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Okay so it's decided. Let's get this thread accepted and move on.
I'll make sure to pan out the story, scaling chain and specific abilities regarding the alternate universe in the future.
I'll make sure to pan out the story, scaling chain and specific abilities regarding the alternate universe in the future.
Ser_Hakim_Dayne
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Now it's metaphysical revisions part 2 time!
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Bros getting that ad bag lmao, gotta respect it
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When it's passed, we can roll back all the 2-A edits to fix the mess they made. Then you can make and publish the Helfilth page, and then we can revisit any scaling later.
Tanin_iver
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Due to bad network coverage I am unable to give a long or elaborate response. So please bear with me.
All I will say is that, most of you are wrong or misunderstanding things.
This is also due to biases of verses people are actually experienced with, such as Qaws equating it with Marvel/DC alternate versions and Viet equating with alternate version of DB like DBS and DBH versions.
That isn't the case with DMC here.
To give a simple explanation this is more like the case of say an Role Playing game where different choices or routes lead to different events.
Everything upto the point it doesn't diverge in PoC or mainline should scale because they go through the exact same events.
Heck, Vol 2's VM timeline diverges a lot more and a lot earlier than PoC.
What doesn't scale are the points where it diverges.
are bringing up actual good points here. What needs to be really fleshed out are the profiles and the justifications for scaling. There shouldn't be any doubts about cross scaling here as they have the same UES cosmology and feats. What doesn't scale are divergent events, different feats and different equipment.
So I guess I am fine with removing 2-A but not for Tony's reasons.
EDIT: What Viet, Tony and Qaws says would only apply to completely different versions and characters that are not at all canonical to mainline, like say the reboot, netflix, MvC, SMT etc.
All I will say is that, most of you are wrong or misunderstanding things.
This is also due to biases of verses people are actually experienced with, such as Qaws equating it with Marvel/DC alternate versions and Viet equating with alternate version of DB like DBS and DBH versions.
That isn't the case with DMC here.
To give a simple explanation this is more like the case of say an Role Playing game where different choices or routes lead to different events.
Everything upto the point it doesn't diverge in PoC or mainline should scale because they go through the exact same events.
Heck, Vol 2's VM timeline diverges a lot more and a lot earlier than PoC.
What doesn't scale are the points where it diverges.
I'd say you and @Random-Helper323
are bringing up actual good points here. What needs to be really fleshed out are the profiles and the justifications for scaling. There shouldn't be any doubts about cross scaling here as they have the same UES cosmology and feats. What doesn't scale are divergent events, different feats and different equipment.
So I guess I am fine with removing 2-A but not for Tony's reasons.
EDIT: What Viet, Tony and Qaws says would only apply to completely different versions and characters that are not at all canonical to mainline, like say the reboot, netflix, MvC, SMT etc.
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The point about Volume 2 is solid. It’s noticeably more divergent yet the scaling remains almost the same. Still, unless there’s some explicit canonical interplay, we probably can’t give it the benefit of the doubt.
As for other examples, I’m not too sure about the comics—I just know the storyline tends to have a lot of inconsistencies overall and how usually it tends to be rebooted.
On the otherhand, the Dragon Ball example doesn’t really work as none of those continuities (whether it’s the movies, DBH, DBXV e.t.c.) had any real involvement from Akira Toriyama beyond some character designs like Mira and Towa. So it’s not a viable comparison at all.
That said, the status quo ultimately has to be maintained either way.
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Can you provide a FAQ in writing for this? I never seen it before and would like to know for future reference. Cause if memory serves me right standards have shown me differently. I'd like to know your opinion on this as well @Vietthai96 if at all possible.
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literally in both DBXV and DBH have multiple variants of Goku or other characters within the same game and didn't scales to each other. no one talking about collab, cross overs
HelloThere1089
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Logically speaking, backscaling is very much possible in MWI. You only need to prove that the events after the split weren't the reason for HF being 2A
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I didn't link a collab/crossover related topic. Also XV and Heroes are not in the same continuity as mainline or even the Toei continuity and are not in the multiverses thereof of either. Notice I linked MCU What IF wherein MCU characters engage in different possible choices as opposed to the main timeline and the scaling was maintained as it seems via backscaling. Also where's that FAQ? I'm not seeing it.
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Well Hellfilth logically was always 2-A? Nothing implies there was ever a point before 3 (which happens right before PoC within what, weeks, months at most) where Hellfilth would've been scaling differently in the 3rd generation era PoC is slotted in.
HelloThere1089
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I think the scaling needs to be better established in a new thread. If you can create a link between POC HF and mainline HF by showing that the nature of HF hasn't changed after the split in the timelines, then they should scale just fine.
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