DMC Ability Removals [Part 2]

[Deagonx]

This is more stuff from the Demon Physiology page. This one is meant to be fairly simple.

The intro section provides scans to establish that various things are part of the soul like emotions, power, life energy, etc. It draws this conclusion:

Souls​

The "Souls" in DMC are more than meets the eye, and anyone that can manipulate or interact with them (and their aspects) should get the following abilities:

• Power Absorption (for any "Soul" absorption and also Power Null with "Soul" manipulation and "Soul" based attacks)
• Energy Manipulation
• Mind Manipulation
• Empathic Manipulation
• Non-Physical Interaction
• Life Manipulation
• Abstract Existence (Type 1, for anyone that has a "Soul")

This is specious reasoning. The fact that the soul contains our emotions/minds/power isn't sufficient to conclude that all forms of Soul Manipulation also entail Manipulation abilities for all of these things. Those abilities have specific requirements beyond "interacting with the container of it." For instance, using Biological Manipulation on someone's brain wouldn't be Empathic Manip unless it changed their emotions. If all it did was disfigure their brain or directly kill them we wouldn't say they have anything other than Biological Manipulation.

The demons have feats for some of these things regardless, but this conclusion should be removed and instances of these abilities in the page which appear to be derived from nothing further than "did something with souls" should be removed. Also the presence of Power Nullification is odd, it doesn't seem relevant here either way.

AE​

Abstract Existence(Types 1 & 2): Demons’ true forms are their Names. A Name being stated to be their truth and their true substance and the bodies they make are mere embodiments/avatars of them.[20]

Types 1 & 2 are mutually exclusive. I'm neutral as to which one remains, but it can only be one. Type 1 and 2 both say you need to destroy the abstraction to destroy the character, but Type 2 says they can still be affected without affecting the abstraction whereas with Type 1 you cannot.

Demon World Resistances​

I have something more in-depth planned for this in the future, because I do not believe all instances of this are sound. However, that is a complicated enough discussion that I believe it will need to be handled separately. In the mean time, I am still proposing that some of these be separated into different entries, because there are several bulky resistance entries that combine several different unrelated powers and scans for no apparent reason. For instance:

Reality Warping, Transmutation and Deconstruction via Matter Manipulation (Atomic Level), Size Manipulation, Petrification, Hellfire Manipulation, Energy Manipulation, Mind Manipulation, Empathic Manipulation, Life Manipulation, Power Nullification, Power Absorption and Soul Manipulation: Demons are resistant to the Beasthead's assimilation process, which assimilates human mass and soul by deconstructing them into basic magical energy, and in the process they also transmute human matter and soul to stone. Hellfire is summoned in surroundings. Beastheads directly derive their power from the Demon World.[53] Demons are also resistant to the Demon World, which can also transform souls into monsters and people into trees[54] and warp reality in the Human World.[55][56][57] They are also unaffected by the Qliphoth tree roots,[36] which sucks the blood of humans and turns them into pollen,[58] and they can also resist their own attacks, which are capable of affecting and destroying souls.

Reality warping could be it's own entry, since all of the scans come from the "warp reality in the Human World" album. I'd also prefer to separate the soul manip and the transmutation stuff.

Illusion Creation, Statistics Reduction and Corrosion Inducement: Demons are unaffected by the Demon World, which just by approaching is enough to be affected by powerful illusions that can also reduce the strength of those being affected by it,[61] and by the nexus, which is capable of reducing the strength of someone that enters inside there and can also decay and rot everything when it is consuming the Human World[62][63] and they are also unaffected by the Demon World itself, which is not only able to corrode people by being close to its influence at night when its effects became stronger, but to also corrode people like Dante, who needed to adapt to it to survive his body not being corroded by the influence of the Demon World on Mallet Island,[62][63] even though he was completely unaffected by the nexus many years prior when he fought for the last time against Gilver, which the nexus was corroding the Bobby Cellar, and, eventually the entire Human World.[64]

All three of these could honestly just be separate entries and should be.

 

[Deagonx]

@Catzlaflame @Maverick_Zero_X @Tllmbrg @Planck69 @SuperSonicTL @Armorchompy @Tony_di_bugalu @Random-Helper323 @Abstractions

You all participated in the last thread. Feel free to look at this one too, if you'd like.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

Hmmm... Lets take a look what we have here...

 

[Fixxed]

AE​

Types 1 & 2 are mutually exclusive. I'm neutral as to which one remains, but it can only be one. Type 1 and 2 both say you need to destroy the abstraction to destroy the character, but Type 2 says they can still be affected without affecting the abstraction whereas with Type 1 you cannot.

Sound like AE 1 and possibly immo 9

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Everything looks good, I agree

For the AE one, I think AE 1 is more approperate, since they seem to model there being after there name. And also seem like a manifestation of there name.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

Yeah agree with it all, apply the changes already.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

If I burn a box that contains paper, plastic and rubber does that mean I'm affecting all that?

Directly? No, obviously. Indirectly? Everything is burned to ashes the same as the box.

Even in your example, changing the biological structure of the brain straight up changes everything, that's why people who had concussions or some kind of trauma changed their whole ass personality. Biological manipulation is the same turned to eleven.


AE: Honestly I thought the explanation was clear enough "A Name being stated to be their truth and their true substance and the bodies they make are mere embodiments/avatars of them"

AE1: A Name being stated to be their truth and their true substance

AE2: the bodies they make are mere embodiments/avatars of them

 

[Deagonx]

If I burn a box that contains paper, plastic and rubber does that mean I'm affecting all that?

Directly? No, obviously. Indirectly? Everything is burned to ashes the same as the box.

Even in your example, changing the biological structure of the brain straight up changes everything, that's why people who had concussions or some kind of trauma changed their whole ass personality. Biological manipulation is the same turned to eleven.

I'm aware, I am not denying that these things would be caught up in the mix in some way or another, but when we say a character has (X Manip) they need to be able to directly manipulate it. If some can use their bio manip to destroy someone's brain, that isn't empathic manip. They can't actually change what emotions the person feels unless we have direct evidence of that. I agree that in some instances it CAN be a mechanism for empathic manip, but the important thing is that the bare-fact of being able to manipulate the flesh of the brain to hurt someone does not mean that the character can manipulate emotions at will. Like, the fear center is in the brain, but you can't give the character Fear Manip unless they use the ability directly in such a way that reflects them having fear manip.

AE: Honestly I thought the explanation was clear enough "A Name being stated to be their truth and their true substance and the bodies they make are mere embodiments/avatars of them"

AE1: A Name being stated to be their truth and their true substance

AE2: the bodies they make are mere embodiments/avatars of them

It can't be both AE1 and AE2. These are the descriptions of each:

Type 1: Exists purely as an abstraction. These characters lack a true physical form, and affecting them requires the ability to affect directly the abstraction itself, because eventual physical manifestations are merely avatars.

Type 2: Embodies an abstraction, and can be resurrected or regenerate indefinitely thanks to it. Destroying the abstraction is required to permanently kill those characters, but they can still be affected without directly altering it.

The question is: Can they be affected without directly affecting the abstraction? If no, Type 1. If yes, Type 2. The answer obviously cannot be "both yes and no." The point you brought up of their bodies merely being avatars is Type 1, not Type 2.

 

[Palito266]

AE stuff should be AE Type 1, it would include Avatar Creation but that's by default in AE 1 so meh, I agree either way.

For the souls I'm neutral leaning to slightly agree, but I would prefer to watch the discussion develop.

We'll see what happens to the resistances later, but something tells me at least half of them are gonna die...

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

I'm aware, I am not denying that these things would be caught up in the mix in some way or another, but when we say a character has (X Manip) they need to be able to directly manipulate it. If some can use their bio manip to destroy someone's brain, that isn't empathic manip. They can't actually change what emotions the person feels unless we have direct evidence of that. I agree that in some instances it CAN be a mechanism for empathic manip, but the important thing is that the bare-fact of being able to manipulate the flesh of the brain to hurt someone does not mean that the character can manipulate emotions at will. Like, the fear center is in the brain, but you can't give the character Fear Manip unless they use the ability directly in such a way that reflects them having fear manip.

I'm not planning to participate much in this thread, But i think this is a bit of a false equalization.

These aspects are metaphysical, to interact with them you'd get Non-Physical Interaction, however to affect them(I.e destroy, alter or create) you'd get X manipulation of said aspect.

Since these characters can destroy souls, by extension they destroy emotions, life, etc and as such, should qualify for these abilities, since they can affect said aspects.

 

[Deagonx]

These aspects are metaphysical, to interact with them you'd get Non-Physical Interaction, however to affect them(I.e destroy, alter or create) you'd get X manipulation of said aspect.

Since these characters can destroy souls, by extension they destroy emotions, life, etc and as such, should qualify for these abilities, since they can affect said aspects.

No, it doesn't work that way. For instance, let's say there's a character named "the Energy/Matter Manipulator" and he has Matter Manip and Energy Manip. Does he have Empathic Manip since our emotions are just the physical/electrical synpases in our brain? Does he have Illusion Creation because what our eyes see is just those same electrical impulses? Well, he might have it, but just him having Matter Manip and Energy Manip doesn't justify that unless we have scans that actually demonstrate that he can use his Energy/Matter manip to directly tweak people's emotions.

Destroying someone's soul -- which has their emotions in it -- is not a form of Empathic Manip.

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

No, it doesn't work that way. For instance, let's say there's a character named "the Energy/Matter Manipulator" and he has Matter Manip and Energy Manip. Does he have Empathic Manip since our emotions are just the physical/electrical synpases in our brain? Does he have Illusion Creation because what our eyes see is just those same electrical impulses? Well, he might have it, but just him having Matter Manip and Energy Manip doesn't justify that unless we have scans that actually demonstrate that he can use his Energy/Matter manip to directly tweak people's emotions.

Destroying someone's soul -- which has their emotions in it -- is not a form of Empathic Manip.

This is a completely different matter entirely.

We give characters what their shown to do with their abilities. Having Matter manipulation might mean they have biological manipulation, but you need evidence for such.

But this is different. We have confirmed parts of what Souls are/contain, we're not speculating that they might have these parts, we know that they do.

and this doesn't work when you take it to the metaphysical realm, to interact with possibilities you'd only get Non-Physical Interaction, but to destroy them? Alter? Create? That would qualify as manipulation.

If these characters are destroying Souls, and souls are/contain these aspects, then they qualify.

 

[Deagonx]

But this is different. We have confirmed parts of what Souls are/contain, we're not speculating that they might have these parts, we know that they do.

You've misunderstood me. I'm not say Energy-Matter Manipulator might have Empathic Manip because brains might contain emotions. I am saying that even if we knew concretely (as we do in the real world) that emotions are physical properties of the brain, that would not automatically mean that Energy-Matter Manipulator has Empathic Manip, because we require direct evidence of him manipulating emotions.

Same for someone with Biological Manip who can give someone a brain hemorrhage. Affecting the brain + the brain containing our emotions =/= Empathic manip. You must directly affect the emotions themselves or demonstrate that you can.

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

You've misunderstood me. I'm not say Energy-Matter Manipulator might have Empathic Manip because brains might contain emotions. I am saying that even if we knew concretely (as we do in the real world) that emotions are physical properties of the brain, that would not automatically mean that Energy-Matter Manipulator has Empathic Manip, because we require direct evidence of him manipulating emotions.

Same for someone with Biological Manip who can give someone a brain hemorrhage. Affecting the brain + the brain containing our emotions =/= Empathic manip. You must directly affect the emotions themselves or demonstrate that you can.

I get that. I just don't think it works when it comes to metaphysical objects.

 

[Deagonx]

I get that. I just don't think it works when it comes to metaphysical objects.

It does. We aren't giving anyone Empathic manip if they can't literally influencing living beings' emotions directly. Just destroying the thing with the emotions inside doesn't matter.

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

It does. We aren't giving anyone Empathic manip if they can't literally influencing living beings' emotions directly. Just destroying the thing with the emotions inside doesn't matter.

Why would it matter if it's direct or not? It's affecting them, that's the only thing that matters.

Actually, do I need to remind you of the accepted proposal in you're last staff thread?

 

[Catzlaflame]

I don’t think the brain analogy is the best one to use. The souls in this series contain emotion while the brain has parts that produce emotion. Slight difference, but we can see how it plays out in application. Honestly, if the soul stuff could be likened to the brain analogy I would be inclined to disagree with the OP.

I think Tony’s comparison is a good one, but I don’t think it was properly applied.
Soul = Box
Things = Emotions (and the other hax)

All good, problem is, If I have a box that contains a bunch of things, it is very much possible to affect the box without affecting the things inside. The burning point is a very unique example because fire just happens to spread like that, but lots (most) things that can be considered “manipulation” do not work that way (at least inherently). Key word inherently.

I acknowledge that it’s not totally unreasonable to think it does work that way, but based on what’s said, I can’t say for sure. Therefore, I must agree with the OP.

Yea a character can only have AE type 1 or 2. Will let verse supporters sort out the nuances.

 

[Deagonx]

Why would it matter if it's direct or not? It's affecting them, that's the only thing that matters.

It isn't the only thing that matters. You're being obtuse. If you can't actually influence emotions you won't get the ability. Destroying the container for them is irrelevant here, it doesn't meet any of the criteria for the ability. You need to be able to control what emotions people are feeling. Destroying their soul (which has their emotions) doesn't accomplish that.

Actually, do I need to remind you of the accepted proposal in you're last staff thread?

That thread has nothing to do with the current discussion. That was about abilities that overlap and accomplish the same effect. Destroying someone's soul does not accomplish Empathic Manipulation even if the emotions are inside of it.

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

It isn't the only thing that matters.

It doesn't matter.

If you can't actually influence emotions you won't get the ability. Destroying the container for them is irrelevant here, it doesn't meet any of the criteria for the ability. You need to be able to control what emotions people are feeling. Destroying their soul (which has their emotions) doesn't accomplish that.

Oh come on, are you seriously suggesting that destroying emotions wouldn't qualify for Empathic Manipulation?

That thread has nothing to do with the current discussion. That was about abilities that overlap and accomplish the same effect. Destroying someone's soul does not accomplish Empathic Manipulation even if the emotions are inside of it.

I looked at it. From what I've seen, it absolutely does.

It's entire premise was on how certain abilities can result in others, for an example made by Damage,

If a character has Probability Manipulation which results in freezing water, they would be given both Probability and Ice Manipulation.

Here ice manipulation is an indirect affect of Probability Manipulation, yet you would list both.

Anyway,

I don’t think the brain analogy is the best one to use. The souls in this series contain emotion while the brain has parts that produce emotion. Slight difference, but we can see how it plays out in application. Honestly, if the soul stuff could be likened to the brain analogy I would be inclined to disagree with the OP.

I think Tony’s comparison is a good one, but I don’t think it was properly applied.
Soul = Box
Things = Emotions (and the other hax)

All good, problem is, If I have a box that contains a bunch of things, it is very much possible to affect the box without affecting the things inside. The burning point is a very unique example because fire just happens to spread like that, but lots (most) things that can be considered “manipulation” do not work that way (at least inherently). Key word inherently.

I acknowledge that it’s not totally unreasonable to think it does work that way, but based on what’s said, I can’t say for sure. Therefore, I must agree with the OP.

Yea a character can only have AE type 1 or 2. Will let verse supporters sort out the nuances.

I can agree with this, the only problem I have with it is what we actually consider as a part of the box (I.e what the box is made of) and what the box contains.

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

But that should be handled by supporters, anyway I'll be unfollowing.

 

[Deagonx]

Oh come on, are you seriously suggesting that destroying emotions wouldn't qualify for Empathic Manipulation?

It would if you could accomplish this without literally killing them. Otherwise no.

It's entire premise was on how certain abilities can result in others

Yes. In this case, Soul Manip is not resulting in Empathic Manip.

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

agree

 

[Vietthai96]

I think you can have both AE1 and 2 as you being an abstraction and at the same time avatar of higher abstraction

 

[Deagonx]

I think you can have both AE1 and 2 as you being an abstraction and at the same time avatar of higher abstraction

If affecting the avatars doesn't affect the main abstraction and the only way to have an effect is to target the abstraction itself it's type 1. If affecting the avatars directly affects the abstraction its type 2.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Everything here makes sense to me. I'm leaning toward Type 1 AE based on what's shown but I'm fine either way

 

[chosen]

So if i understand right

Emphatic hax should be exclusive to full soul (dmc edition) Manipulation rather soul destruction and npi?

 

[Deagonx]

Emphatic hax should be exclusive to full soul (dmc edition) Manipulation rather soul destruction and npi?

It should be exclusive to instances where characters have feats of directly affecting a character's emotions. It doesn't really matter what they can do with souls unless it describes them altering people's emotions directly. It can't just be inferred from soul manip.

 

[Deagonx]

Bump

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

I agree with the OP.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

I also agree with the OP

 

[Robo432343]

agree

 

[Deagonx]

I'll apply this now.