"Divine Forces Manipulation" over "Holy Manipulation"

[Nullflowerblush]

Our current Holy Manipulation page is deeply flawed in its presentation of the ability.

Firstly, the page presents Holy Manipulation as a "broad term" and simply denotes that Holy Manipulation is controlling "divine" powers without ever really going into depth about what "divine" means. The description brings up examples of its applications and its depiction in fiction, but never conclusively explains how the power work.

Additionally, moving past the name, the page itself seems to describe the ability under the belief that gods in fiction are always depicted as omnibenevolent, when this is evidently not the case. It portrays the power as strictly righteous and pure, but forgets to neglect the fact that even evil individuals can manipulate divine forces.

That is why I attempted to create the Holy Manipulation page from the ground up, instead focusing on manipulation of divine forces overall, rather than strictly sacred and holy ones.

Divine Force Manipulation

vsbattles.fandom.com

The name can be discussed.

 

[Spinoirr]

For example holy manipulation is something like killing soulless monsters/demons with a "holy magic nuke of white light" that only affects those demons/monsters

Correct?

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Yes, I believe.

 

[Spinoirr]

Yes, I believe.

So sliver eyes from rwby fall into this new power category

 

[Mazdoesstuff]

L + Ratio + Holy Manip is a cooler name

 

[Omnificence]

I think it'd just be better if we added synonyms like these to the Holy Manipulation page.

 

[Vietthai96]

Well, look like this thread is the result of a certain thread. However i do agree with this. About name, Divine Power Manipulation seem good to me. Also should we adding some possible weakness like, ineffective to other people who use the same power; and adding possible resistance toward unholy manipulation??

 

[Spinoirr]

Also the fact the power may only work on specific beings

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Added.

 

[Vietthai96]

We should also possibly rename Unholy Manipulation at this point...

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Demonic Force Manipulation?

 

[Vietthai96]

Well, something like that

 

[Malomtek]

I'd be more in opposition to this if "Holy Manipulation" (stupid name; it should be "Holiness Manipulation") wasn't a very vaguely defined power in general.

What should be done is that "Divine Force/Power Manipulation" should be added in as a synonym for "Holy Manipulation", and the revisions given in OP's blog should be done for "Holy Manipulation".

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Agree

 

[Blackcurrant91]

I feel like 'Holy Manipulation' is far to vague of a power in the first place and it means different things to different verses. Holy is just an 'element' in some verses where in others it's manipulating divine energy, while in other verses its just a mixture of purification and light manipulation. It's just a weirdly specific subset of Energy Manipulation honestly. I dont get why we have it, it seems akin to 'Aethyr Manipulation' or other weirdly specific in verse powers.

 

[Vietthai96]

Actually, Holy is not subset of energy manipulation, it is a specific type. However Holy emcompassing larger range, from energy to magic to all other kind of supernatural power

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

I think the changes are honestly a massive improvement.
I also moved this to Staff Discussion, since it's a major change to one of our P&A pages.

 

[Vietthai96]

Half of the revision thread i joined turn into Staff thread, some i'm not even aware of to the point i realized they already turned into staff thread for more than 3 pages

 

[Antvasima]

I think that it seems better to keep Holy Manipulation, but redefine it so it actually strictly refers to forces that are holy in nature, not necessarily associated with the divine.

Also, giving every deity an automatic Divine Forces Manipulation seems very inappropriate to me.

 

[StekFence]

The definition should just be a more specific of, can this force do super effective damage to a demon? If yes, congrats you use holiness manip. If no, gtfo

 

[SamanPatou]

The power itself is rather vague in the first place and serves more to define the status of some energy or other powers in general.

Imho, personally I'd lean more towards the most extreme solution, which would be deleting the power and just break it down in other powers and effects depending on what the singular character does with it.

The same applies to its counterpart unholy manipulation.

 

[Vietthai96]

to be honest, i don't think we need to delete it, this power is very popular across fictions especially fiction what have some form of mythology with god, demons etc.....

 

[Antvasima]

The definition should just be a more specific of, can this force do super effective damage to a demon? If yes, congrats you use holiness manip. If no, gtfo

to be honest, i don't think we need to delete it, this power is very popular across fictions especially fiction what have some form of mythology with god, demons etc.....

We need something more elaborate than the above suggestion, but the base sentiments are accurate, yes.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

awww i thought divine force manipulation was cool

 

[Omnificence]

awww i thought divine force manipulation was cool

Well, it's a great idea, but we already have a page of a power that deals with manipulation of "divine forces". I can see it being a synonym or maybe a sub-power of Holy Manipulation, but that's about it.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Well, they are not all that similar. Holy Manipulation covers the whole blessed "white light", "white magic", angelic type of stuff. Y'know, powers that are typically associated with Jesus Christ of Christianity or the Abrahamic-esque gods and heavenly beings that fiction often depicts. On the other hand, "Divine Force Manipulation" focuses on the whole of "divinity", covering transcendental celestial powers, holy powers, dark divinity, and the likes.

Although, I do understand Antvasima's quarrels with the concept; it would effectively make it to where every truly divine god in fiction would receive the power.

 

[Nierre]

Ant FRA

 

[Blackcurrant91]

Holy Manip is just Purification+Light Manip in most cases. I personally prefer to list specifically how a characters Holy Manip works on a profile I am making instead of just listing 'Holy Manip'

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

This ability is vague and doesn't have proper criteria to qualify for it. I still don't understand why dragon balls "god ki" doesn't qualify for it despite fulfilling most of the uses such as healing, light manipulation, and granting supreme power much stronger than regular mortals.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

healing

shown once in super saiyan god and then never again

light manipulation

all ki produces light

granting supreme power much stronger than regular mortals

hrrrrrmmm not really

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

shown once in super saiyan god and then never again

all ki produces light

hrrrrrmmm not really

It's an ability of god ki and that's what matters, it's one of the criteria met.
It doesn't matter, still meets the criteria.
Yes really, god amp is massive and you know it, I don't need to explain.
It also meets a 4th criteria which is divine empowerment. They needed the god ritual for Goku to access SSG, and it wasn't simply giving him power, they needed a specific criteria to be met for it to work. And when it did, they said he acsended from a mortal to a god.
If this doesn't meet the criteria for the ability then you need to specify what you actually need to qualify in detail because this ability is vague and bad.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

because this ability is vague

I suggest you read past the Billy Batson caption :3

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

I suggest you read past the Billy Batson caption :3

I read the whole page. If what is written is what you need to qualify then there's no reason why god ki doesn't.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

God Ki is not sacred, transcendent, celestial, heavenly, mystical, or arcane nor does it exhibit any traits that are truly by-the-books "godly"; it is just really refined, really potent Ki. The only difference between it and normal Ki is the fact that God Ki is undetectable.

This is incredibly off-topic, and was discussed and shut down earlier.

 

[Bobsican]

Honestly, I agree with SamanPatou.
Holy Manip is too variable between verses to standarize, and it'd be better if we just list what powers have been displayed for indexing purposes than to just assume out of nowhere that they have Purification and whatever out of sheer name. This is no different from Hellfire Manip in terms of issues.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

God Ki is not sacred, transcendent, celestial, heavenly, mystical, or arcane nor does it exhibit any traits that are truly by-the-books "godly"; it is just really refined, really potent Ki. The only difference between it and normal Ki is the fact that God Ki is undetectable.

This is incredibly off-topic, and was discussed and shut down earlier.

What are you on about? God ki literally fits every single on of those terms except maybe a few definitons of mystic.
Oh as if being really potent power beyond normal mortal power isn't one of the requirements lmao. Oh "it's only undetectable", as if that doesn't already qualify for transcendent and arcane.
This is not off topic. The god ki thread was the catalyst for this thread. You are also trying to use god ki as an example of what does not qualify for this ability so it's relevant. It was shut down when I was sleeping.

 

[Blackcurrant91]

Honestly, I agree with SamanPatou.
Holy Manip is too variable between verses to standarize, and it'd be better if we just list what powers have been displayed for indexing purposes than to just assume out of nowhere that they have Purification and whatever out of sheer name. This is no different from Hellfire Manip in terms of issues.

Basically this yes

 

[QuasiYuri]

Tbh looking at it just makes me want to nuke the page already.

"Divine Power" is super-verse specific the same way "he killed a god!" means nothing from verse to verse.

So I 100% agree with Bobsican and SamanPatou

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

I think it would be better to have a power that defines the attribute of being "super effective" against x-thing. Like anti-demon/evil/unholy stuff, or anti-dragon, or anti-divine, with the power making a note to not include weaknesses (plant type pokemon are weak to fire, pokemon fire isn't stronger against any plant; werewolves are weak to silver, it isn't silver that is anti-werewolf).

Then we could just redirect holy manipulation to that.

 

[Blackcurrant91]

It's just Damage Boost or durability negation that only works against evil beings. It's basically a verse specific power masquerading as a universal power currently