Ditto intelligence upgrade and transformation downgrade

[Lou_change]

Hi to day we will be talking about ditto simply put ditto's talent for transforming and it doesn't have some kind of connection to mew.

So ditto transforms into it's cells to become any pokemon, item, or person(within reason) this includes porygon living data, various aliens, vaporeon and Cryogonal both practically made of water, it also transforms into rocks when sleeping, but also other Ice types made of ice, rock and ground types maded rocks, magma(Slugma), steel types made of steel, plasma(rotom), ghost types which are spirits, toxic gas(weezing), toxic liquid(muk), it also creates cloths when it becomes a human and weapons when it transforms into beings that have those as for why it doesn't create held items it prevents them from having two items or game mechanics, they are also always described as transforming into perfect copy these include geniuses like slowking, alakazam, metagross and super skilled pokemon like machamp, it even can become multiple pokemon like Kangaskhan and Falinks it also copies fighting moves, and moves that require a tutor like the starter exclusive super moves and pledges or draco meteor easily and it does all this just by looking at the thing it copies it doesn't even have a special cell structure detecting ability this should warrant higher intelligence then average alone combined with the ability to mimic something perfectly should probably be at least above average or variable intelligence.

Anyway let's get to the mew thing it is based on some similarities in weight and color along with the fact it is found in the area where they cloned mewtwo into existence this doesn't explain why this is never stated, it is in every region, no mentions of failed clones of mew, the amount of research on it and most importantly it's ability to transform into pokemon on mew and mewtwo's level it wouldn't be a failure if it can become the successful result it's peak should be normal megas or 6-C.

 

[Vizer04]

You did it...

 

[StrymULTRA]

I kinda of agree with Ditto not being like Mew at all given it's just a fan theory that was even debunked from Masuda himself.

 

[JustANormalLemon]

you can show a example of ditto becoming smarter when transforming?

 

[Lou_change]

I don't have any on me but pokedex entries state it's copies are perfect unless it is doing it from memory.

 

[JustANormalLemon]

I don't have any on me but pokedex entries state it's copies are perfect unless it is doing it from memory.

it never says mentaly perfect, just states fisicaly

 

[Lou_change]

With its astonishing capacity for metamorphosis, it can get along with anything. It does not get along well with its fellow Ditto.

Capable of reorganizing its cells to transform into an exact duplicate of its enemy. It is usually a shapeless blob

Its transformation ability is perfect. However, if it is made to laugh, it can't maintain its disguise.

Just some pokedex entries I think the first is most notable.

 

[JustANormalLemon]

all of that says only about fisical transformation, not mental

 

[Lou_change]

all of that says only about fisical transformation, not mental

The fact it gets along with everything except it's own species.

 

[JustANormalLemon]

The fact it gets along with everything except it's own species.

seens more like a social influence stand point

 

[Lou_change]

That should warrant higher than average combined with its ability to copy fight type moves and win fights against pokemon known for their skill.

 

[JustANormalLemon]

That should warrant higher than average combined with its ability to copy fight type moves and win fights against pokemon known for their skill.

fight type move are at beast fight skill, not intelect, but agree to just be higher than average, but not him coping intelect

 

[Lou_change]

Okay that is Fair but fighting skills can be list as combat intelligence I don't remember the proper name everything else you said I am inclined to agree with.

 

[JustANormalLemon]

Okay that is Fair but fighting skills can be list as combat intelligence I don't remember the proper name everything else you said I am inclined to agree with.

hum... maybe kinda? has a dference from knoing how to punch and thinking that tring to make you opponent is better than headbutting them

 

[RandomGuy2345]

Okay that is Fair but fighting skills can be list as combat intelligence

Ehhh...

Johnny Test, Spongebob, Johnny Bravo, and Mister Satan all are skilled Martial Artists, but they aren't very smart in most aspects.

 

[JustANormalLemon]

Ehhh...

Johnny Test, Spongebob, Johnny Bravo, and Mister Satan all are skilled Martial Artists, but they aren't very smart in most aspects.

he agreed with that.... kinda

 

[Lou_change]

Ehhh...

Johnny Test, Spongebob, Johnny Bravo, and Mister Satan all are skilled Martial Artists, but they aren't very smart in most aspects.

Correct but they all are able to fight better then for example an unarmed eggman due to their skill.

 

[RandomGuy2345]

Correct but they all are able to fight better then for example an unarmed eggman due to their skill.

Fair point.

 

[JustANormalLemon]

Correct but they all are able to fight better then for example an unarmed eggman due to their skill.

they copy the skill, but not the strategic thinking

 

[RandomGuy2345]

they copy the skill, but not the strategic thinking

This^

 

[Lou_change]

I mean I would argue that they either do neither or both.

 

[JustANormalLemon]

I mean I would argue that they either do neither or both.

they aren't the same thing, fighting skill comes form knoing how to move you body, strategical thinking is you know what is the best way to move you body in this situation, skill comes similar to muscular memory

 

[Lou_change]

Yeah that's fair.

 

[JustANormalLemon]

Yeah that's fair.

So I agree

 

[ElixirBlue]

Since the anime is canon with the games, does Ditto’s behavior in the anime supports or debunks its intelligence?

 

[Lou_change]

All it does is not have a photographic memory and mess with team rocket if I recall.

 

[Everything12]

Ditto copies mental-based Abilities and Moves such as Inner Focus.

The Pokémon's intensely focused, and that protects the Pokémon from flinching.

 

[JustANormalLemon]

Ditto copies mental-based Abilities and Moves such as Inner Focus.

tjis shouldn't count as intelect, just mental traning

 

[Lou_change]

Bump

 

[Lou_change]

Bump

 

[Lou_change]

Bump

 

[Imaginym]

Since the anime is canon with the games, does Ditto’s behavior in the anime supports or debunks its intelligence?

There have been Dittos shown with defects, IIRC, but those seemed to be individual Ditto, who were central to their episode's plots.

Determining if Ditto actually gets smarter when transforming feels difficult.

"A DITTO rearranges its cell structure to transform itself. However, if it tries to change based on its memory, it will get details wrong."
The fact that it can get details wrong at all when working from memory does imply its intelligence is flawed, & it's kind of a big assumption to make that just because it knows how to change into materials means it knows those materials or things better than how to use its natural abilities to copy them.

It also explicitly transforms by rearranging its cell structure, so we may have to consider what it can turn into with respect to what it can do, unless we have reason to believe it can turn biological cells into non-biological things & back again.

"Its transformation ability is perfect. However, if made to laugh, it can’t maintain its disguise."
"It can reconstitute its entire cellular structure to change into what it sees, but it returns to normal when it relaxes."
"When it encounters another Ditto, it will move faster than normal to duplicate that opponent exactly."
"While it can transform into anything, each Ditto apparently has its own strengths and weaknesses when it comes to transformations."

Also, there's all those entries.

 

[Lou_change]

it knows those materials or things better than how to use its natural abilities to copy them.
I don't know where this was argued but I am pretty sure that a ditto without a trainer can handle a fight an even when again other pokemon.

 

[Imaginym]

it knows those materials or things better than how to use its natural abilities to copy them.
I don't know where this was argued but I am pretty sure that a ditto without a trainer can handle a fight an even when again other pokemon.

What I said, in the full sentence's context was:

"A DITTO rearranges its cell structure to transform itself. However, if it tries to change based on its memory, it will get details wrong."
The fact that it can get details wrong at all when working from memory does imply its intelligence is flawed, & it's kind of a big assumption to make that just because it knows how to change into materials means it knows those materials or things better than how to use its natural abilities to copy them.

I feel like quoting only what you did could lead to misinterpretation.

I was arguing that a Ditto likely knows how to turn into materials, as part of its natural abilities, but doesn't necessarily know much about them otherwise.
Ex: Just because Ditto can restructure its cells by using its abilities, doesn't necessarily mean it has a thorough understanding of cellular biology.

 

[Lou_change]

Just because Ditto can restructure its cells by using its abilities, doesn't necessarily mean it has a thorough understanding of cellular biology.

One of the weaker points but I would think being able to have enough control of ones cell structure to become several things I mention on the top post would be a sign that ditto's control of its cells is almost perfect I would assume ditto's understanding why they can do it is rather good and it using the ways it does like disguising itself as a rock when sleeping should warrant higher natural intelligence and there is evidence of it copying skill.

Could you please state what you do and don't agree with.

 

[Imaginym]

One of the weaker points but I would think being able to have enough control of ones cell structure to become several things I mention on the top post would be a sign that ditto's control of its cells is almost perfect I would assume ditto's understanding why they can do it is rather good

IIRC, we assume Pokemon have a natural instinct battle, & we'd need evidence Ditto uses the abilities of its transformations effectively; Transformed Dittos in gameplay either have a trainer directing them, or act at random.

Just because a Pokemon can use an ability on natural instinct mean we can readily assumes it understands the physics behind it. Does Electrike understand electricity? Does Growlithe understand thermodynamics? Does Gastly understand shadows enough beyond how to make them into a ball to launch it?

Ditto becomes those Pokemon, but why assume Ditto gets more knowledge about its new form when those Pokemon can use their abilities when it's questionable how well they understand themselves.

and it using the ways it does like disguising itself as a rock when sleeping should warrant higher natural intelligence and there is evidence of it copying skill.

A shapeshifter turning into a sturdier form doesn't mean it understands the science or physical properties or such of its transformative abilities, just that it can use them.
Plus, a rock isn't necessarily ideal? Why not a piece of steel, since simplistic logic says steel would be tougher, & thus, safer than rock?

Could you please state what you do and don't agree with.

Do you mean from among the opening post?

Well, for one, you've cited a bunch of Pokemon we've only seen turn into in gameplay. The same gameplay that lets it turn into Arceus, & many species which likely don't have cells, despite Ditto's means of transformation being based on cellular restructuring.
I feel like, to call Ditto transforming into such Pokemon as NOT game mechanics we need showings of Ditto transforming into such Pokemon before in non-game media, so that we can assume it imitating those properties in spite of what lore describes its limitations as being.

 

[Lou_change]

I guess I should remove that argument.

Do you mean from among the opening post?

Yes

Well, for one, you've cited a bunch of Pokemon we've only seen turn into in gameplay. The same gameplay that lets it turn into Arceus, & many species which likely don't have cells, despite Ditto's means of transformation being based on cellular restructuring.
I feel like, to call Ditto transforming into such Pokemon as NOT game mechanics we need showings of Ditto transforming into such Pokemon before in non-game media, so that we can assume it imitating those properties in spite of what lore describes its limitations as being.

Given it transformed into a rock and back I feel most are reasonable but also https://m.bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Ditto_Collection
Anyway I was referring to the intelligence stuff and removing the mew limiter and going to a normal pokemon one.

 

[Imaginym]

Given it transformed into a rock and back I feel most are reasonable but also https://m.bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Ditto_Collection

A bunch of merchandise with dubious canonicity, no feats, & showing Ditto incorrectly replicating the facial features of several Pokemon?

Anyway I was referring to the intelligence stuff and removing the mew limiter and going to a normal pokemon one.

" and it does all this just by looking at the thing it copies it doesn't even have a special cell structure detecting ability this should warrant higher intelligence then average alone combined with the ability to mimic something perfectly should probably be at least above average or variable intelligence."

You mean that part of your post, where "all this" is it copying other Pokemon & their moves?

Not to mention, the claim of its cellular structure not being special is dubious, when one of its defining features is being able to restructure it, & AFAIK, there isn't a claim for it doing this through "magic" or such, as opposed to through its cells; Saying this is a special property of its cells feels like the simplest assumption.

& we don't know if it actually does any Information Analysis or if it researches tons of species throughout its life. Isn't just turning into a perfect copy on sight just an ability lots of shapeshifters in fiction have?

 

[Lou_change]

A bunch of merchandise with dubious canonicity, no feats, & showing Ditto incorrectly replicating the facial features of several Pokemon?

Yes
and what about the mew thing

 

[Imaginym]

Yes
and what about the mew thing

I'd say that depends on how canon we consider merchandise.
(& even then, it's of questionable accuracy; Whatever Ditto did this didn't get the eyes right, & Ditto that transform from memory are known to make mistakes. Considering Mew is likely to be invisible, & so rare as to be a mirage, I'd assume mistakes are very possible. & since this Ditto already gets eyes wrong on whatever it turns into, I'd assume that since it likely had a worse reference for Mew, it made more mistakes, even if they weren't visible. Especially sinceJust because it copied the appearance, doesn't mean it flawlessly copied the DNA of a Pokemon with the DNA of every other Pokemon.)