Discord (IDW) upgrade

[Antvasima]

'World' obviously means universe. I'm fine with Low 2-C.

Unless a timeline or continuum is mentioned we tend to go by 3-A from that though.

 

[Paulo.junior.969]

Yeah, timelines are never directly mentioned (unless we assume that's what they mean when they mention "reality", or "fabric of the world", but that's debatable), so I guess the safest rating right now would be 3-A to High 3-A.

 

[DoggoRoboto]

Yeah based on current evidence, I don't see Low 2-C, but 3-A to High 3-A is fine.

 

[Lightbuster30]

As far as I can tell, IRL pain in dreams comes from real-world things that could hurt you, like health problems. Scootaloo was very clearly getting hurt from things in her dream, like bumping her head into a wall, even though she wasn't shown getting hurt in the waking world. I don't really know, though, but I personally never quite got why we treated them as stuff that didn't exist.
This is the only scholarly write-up I could find that wasn't pseudoscience nonsense but I can't really follow medical terms and stuff.

I believe the idea came from Azathoth when I made the thread. Essentially being that the dreams are sensations like irl and it being supported by Luna linking her mind to other ponies dreams via threads instead of outright travelling into them. But thinking on it now, if the dream world is actually refered to as a realm then why would it be nothing more than sensations?

 

[Lightbuster30]

What is High 3-A being based on again? Does Discord's mind have anything to do with that? Because containing an entire dimension is by default low 2-C. You can't experience a dimension that only has space in it. You wouldn't be able to do or expeirence anything in it without time.

 

[Antvasima]

Yeah, timelines are never directly mentioned (unless we assume that's what they mean when they mention "reality", or "fabric of the world", but that's debatable), so I guess the safest rating right now would be 3-A to High 3-A.

Agreed.

 

[Paulo.junior.969]

Actually, creating an infinite realm is High 3-A by default (I think).

 

[Antvasima]

Yes. Discord should be High 3-A, and the combination of statements about breaking worlds and having infinite power should likely land Celestia there as well.

 

[Paulo.junior.969]

So I guess it would be:

High Universe level (Superior to Celestia and Luna, who were stated to have infinite power for Destruction and to be able to break worlds, His mind is an entire physical dimension that he can reshape and control, which is infinite in size)

Is that alright?

 

[Antvasima]

That seems pretty accurate, yes.

 

[DoggoRoboto]

I'm not sure if it counts, but theirs a few shots of Discord's dimension that display clocks, implying some sort of time exists. Example #1, #2

Edit: Yeah I agree with Paulo's description.

 

[Paulo.junior.969]

Alright. Can I add it now or do you want to see what other people think before?

 

[Lightbuster30]

Actually, creating an infinite realm is High 3-A by default (I think).

Again, I have no clue how you create a world others can experience with space but no time. It's like asking to prove this comment is a comment. Just seems nonsensicle.

 

[Paulo.junior.969]

I think its because it need to be proven that it has a different flow of time, and isn't just following the same flow of time as the rest of the world, or something like that.

 

[Lightbuster30]

That is to say: You created seperate space while borrowing the flow of time from the rest of the univrse. Something along those lines?

 

[Paulo.junior.969]

I guess? That's what I think might be the reason, at least. Don't quote me on it.

 

[Lightbuster30]

That is even more nonsensicle. How the hell is the time from another universe or some spaceless void supposed to flow into a new one? Not the most knowledgable when it comes to this, but I'm pretty sure time doesn't work that way.

 

[Paulo.junior.969]

Discord's realm is not a spaceless void tho, it's inside his mind, which is inside of him, which is inside the universe.

 

[DoggoRoboto]

So should I go ahead and upgrade Dcord to At least 3-A, likely High 3-A, or just flat High 3-A?

Edit: Prob High 3-A due to the infinite power statement for Luna.

 

[Paulo.junior.969]

Well, Ant thinks the description I posted a few comments ago is accurate, so I guess High 3-A.

 

[CinnabarManx421]

High 3-A seems to have been accepted, so I think we should go with that.

 

[Lightbuster30]

Discord's realm is not a spaceless void tho, it's inside his mind, which is inside of him, which is inside the universe.

But each realm beyond each door has it's own space time. As evidenced by a few of them taking place during the day, and his nightmare with Fluttershy happening at night at the same time.

 

[Lightbuster30]

I think a likely High 3-A is better than outright.

 

[Paulo.junior.969]

But each realm beyond each door has it's own space time. As evidenced by a few of them taking place during the day, and his nightmare with Fluttershy happening at night at the same time.

Oh yeah, there's that.

 

[Lightbuster30]

Got any opinions on type 2 abstract existence?

 

[Paulo.junior.969]

The High 3-A status have been added, btw.

 

[Lightbuster30]

But each realm beyond each door has it's own space time. As evidenced by a few of them taking place during the day, and his nightmare with Fluttershy happening at night at the same time.

So about this + AE type 2?

 

[Paulo.junior.969]

I think Type 2 would make sense.

 

[DoggoRoboto]

Oh sorry. I don't really know what to think about it. I guess I'm okay with it unless theirs evidence against it.

 

[Lightbuster30]

Oh sorry. I don't really know what to think about it. I guess I'm okay with it unless theirs evidence against it.

This would also give both of them some form of conceptual manipulation right? Calling himself the "unifying principle of order".

"Principle: A fundamental truth or proposition that serves as the foundation for a system of belief or behavior or for a chain of reasoning."

A principle is different from an embodiment in that embodiments are simply non-physical ideas taken a physical form. A principle seems to be more in line with an archetpye based on it's definition.

Taking what he says at face value, it seems like he can control and redefine the concept of order and re-define it into something else. Proof of this? The fact that he changed his very nature. He re-wrote the very fundamental nature of his being from something chaotic to orderly; to the point where he no longer embodied chaos but instead order, and promptly changed himself back from an entity of pure order and embodies it into one of chaos. Which supports his statement of being the unifying principle of order.

 

[Antvasima]

Abstract Existence type 3 is obviously fine, but we need some eivdence that you have to destroy the concepts of chaos/order themselves in order to destroy Discord/Accord to warrant type 2.

 

[Lightbuster30]

Abstract Existence type 3 is obviously fine, but we need some eivdence that you have to destroy the concepts of chaos/order themselves in order to destroy Discord/Accord to warrant type 2.

Existing in all who desire said concept is fairly strong evidence of that.

 

[Antvasima]

That is covered by type 3 as well as far as I am aware.

 

[Lightbuster30]

Type 3 is specifically when you only emobdy an abstraction but are not protected by it to any degree. That Discord/Accord lives in people wanting Chaos/Order strongly implies he's more than an abstraction. Even the cartoon has implied this, albeit to a much lesser degree.

Although, considering he relies specifically on the concept exisiting within those who desire said concept as opposed to existing everywhere the concept exists, it might be a limited form of type 2.

 

[Antvasima]

He does not require being the embodiment in order to survive going by when he was depowered, has not been referred to as existing everywhere that chaos exists, and can be greatly affected without directly affecting the concept itself, such as by turning him to stone, so I am uncertain.

 

[Lightbuster30]

He does not require being the embodiment in order to survive going by when he was depowered, has not been referred to as existing everywhere that chaos exists, and can be greatly affected without directly affecting the concept itself, such as by turning him to stone, so I am uncertain.

1. I've already pointed out: Being depowered does not make him vulnerable to dying. Being depowered means he can have his powers taken away. Nothing more. Even without his magic, he is still pure chaos. Depowering him doesn't remove his chaotic nature. It doesn't make him "not" the embodiment of chaos anymore, regardless whether it's type 3 or type 2.

2. His orderly counterpart exists in the hearts of people who desire order. He clearly doesn't exist everywhere that order does, merely in the hearts of the people who want it, hence why I suggested a limited form of type 2.

3. "Type 2: Embodies an abstraction, and can be resurrected or regenerate indefinitely thanks to it. Destroying the abstraction is required to permanently kill those characters, but they can still be affected without directly altering it."

Straight from the Abstract Existence page. If I were advocating for type 1 this would be relevant, but I'm advocating for limited type 2.

 

[Antvasima]

1) If he is powerless he does not have any power over chaos anymore. You do not make any sense to me.

2) There is no limited form of type 2 as we define it. Either you are an embodiment of an entire concept, or you are not.

3) Okay.

 

[Lightbuster30]

1. He does to an extent. Evidenced by him being self-aware the entire time he was petrified. This is clearly a result of his chaotic is a result of nature. Yet again, he is still an entity of pure chaos. To use an example to explain my point: Him fading out of existence is a result of going against his chaotic nature and had nothing to do with his chaos magic, although it did have the effect of shutting it down. You are trying to equate his chaos magic with his chaotic nature when they are established in-comics and in-show to be seperate. Existing in all who want his concept is a result of his nature not his magic.

2. Ok then, what about type 8 immortality? If he exists in those who desire order, then you likely would need to remove everyone who wants order to put him down for good.

 

[Antvasima]

1) An embodiment of chaos that does not have any actual power over the concept of chaos still doesn't make any sense, and as such neither does what you were suggesting here.

2) That would make better sense, yes. Thank you for being reasonable.

 

[Lightbuster30]

Re-posting since I can't edit the original comment.

Except he does have control over it. I made an entire comment pointing out how he re-wrote the nature of his being down to the concept he embodied. It's clear he has a connection to what he embodies with or without magic.

Call it headcanon, but Discord in my eyes is likely similar to a Daedric Prince or some other dimension lord in the sense that they can only manifest their real power in their home dimension and his chaos magic simply allows him to exert this power beyond his dimension. Hence why he needs chaos magic despite embodying it, being it's spirit/principle etc.