DIO has his Phantom Blood abilities (Criticism) ... Re-uploaded

[SolidEye234]

Solid has conflicting statements. On one hand, he says that Part 1 Dio is stronger than High DIO so he can't use freezing. Later then, he says Part 3 Pre-High DIO is stronger than Part 1 Dio because of regen. Which would automatically make High DIO stronger than Part 1 DIO.

....

I've never claimed that Part 3 Pre-High DIO is stronger than Part 1 Dio because of regen. Whenever I refer to Part III, I meant his Awakened form.

You've specifically stated, "He got his old regen back. Meaning he's back to his Part 1 self." Subsequently, scapegoating me for conflicting statements is quite intriguing.

Let me finish my response.

 

[Standuser081]

Ok, I'll admit that misunderstanding for my part, but you said "you've claimed his Part I form is his peak, yet Part III has the faster Regenerationn." You're admitting that Part 1 Dio isn't his peak but it is instead High DIO, supporting my own argument.

 

[SolidEye234]

I do agree with Dragon with what he said, but it doesn't debunk my claim that "greatest high" means he's at his strongest. I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt that Part 1 isn't his peak, but his "greatest high" statement means that High DIO, who is now at his strongest, should be above Part 1 Dio. And yes, The World's time stop can be can be developed to 9 seconds, but not that fast. Remember, DIO said that it took him months to lengthen his time stop to 5 seconds.

Then you have to demonstrate that Part I Dio's body is identical to Part III DIO if we're going to incorporate continous growth. Straizo have mentioned, "Dio's failure was that he enjoyed these abilities. He wanted to test the limit to his ability... "Dio has tested the limitation of his body within the course of Part I which Straizo did not have time to test when encountering Joseph .

There's the possibility that certain limitations that he didn't have within Part 1 do exist in Jonathan as this isn't his original body he's controlling. Nonetheless, he specifially claimed, "Joestar's blood is making this body stronger than ever before. "

That is my response.

 

[ProfessorLord]

This is likely going to go on for weeks until we hit the thread cap, huh?

Anyway, I have explained it to you enough, if you don't care or don't believe it then I cannot help you. For your sake I hope more people start agreeing with you, though.

Good debate.

 

[SolidEye234]

Much obliged.

Subsequently, this debate will find closure and hopefully leads to the truth. I appreciate your time here, Prof. and the substantial effort you've put into.

Good debate.

 

[Antvasima]

@ProfessorLord

Can you give a TLDR summary of the above discussion?

 

[ProfessorLord]

No problem.

Currently, we have normal DIO as having access to his attack Space Ripper Stingy Eyes based off of logical conclusions that were reached in my original revision, and we have Awakened DIO as having both his SRSE and his Vaporizing Freeze.

His critique is proposing we change it so that Awakened DIO does not have his Vaporizing Freeze, while also dumbing down his original rate of Regenerationn in his Dio Brando form.

That is what is being debated. As for the reasoning behind it:

While normal DIO should not have his Vaporizing Freeze since he himself has stated that it requires full control of his body (which he does not have as DIO since he is using a hijacked body that is resisting him), his Awakened DIO form should definitely have it. He has said to a trusted in the past, in both the anime and manga something to the effect of "after I drain the blood of one more person, I will likely get control of my body back" (Here's the manga, different words, same implicatio) Since then, he became Awakened DIO by draining the blood of not only a person, but Joseph Joestar which is important because he remarks that the blood of a Joestar should be more compatible with the blood of another person.(This is further backed up by him going through a transformation and remarking that he feels better then he ever has before after draining the blood of Joseph) Thus we can make the logical conclusion that since he said Vaporizing Freeze needs full control of his body, and that draining the blood of a regular person let alone a Joestar should give him full control, he should be able to use Vaporizing Freeze and SRSE as Awakened DIO.

His critique is proposing the following:

Yes, no where in the manga claimed that DIO lost his vampiric abilities. But no where in the manga claimed that DIO kept his vampiric abilities either. This is where the third option lies.

This doesn't mean you have the rights to claim DIO has all his abilities because no one can prove you wrong. This remains unfalsifiable.

(In essence, his argument is that since never used his vampire abilities in Stardust Crusaders, he should not have it and that assuming so is incorrect and false. He also suggests that he does not have full control of his body even as Awakened DIO, as he remarked how he wanted to try draining the blood of another Joestar.)

 

[ProfessorLord]

I am sorry if I misrepresented your argument @Solid, but that seems to be most of the relevant discussion you had put forward in regards to his ABILITIES. Most of your energy was wasted on his Regenerationn and trying to prove that he shouldn't scale on Straizo.

When I go back and read I get easily confused because of how sidetracked this argument had got. I apologize for that Ant.

 

[TacticalNuke002]

Eh, I'd say give the abilities to post-Joseph succ High DIO, but don't let him use them unless its a bloodlusted match.

 

[ProfessorLord]

Yes, since he never used them despite it might being convinent for him to end his fight against Jotaro, I am inclined to say that he definitely has it but it's probably out of character for him to use.

That being said, if he finds that his stand is useless against an opponent and he has time to think out a battle strategy in a fight, it is likely he will think back to his catalog of abilities and attacks and bust out the Vaporizing Freeze and SRSE. Whether or not he can survive long enough to produce a conclusion is unlikely but possible.

This is how we have currently been doing things, see the All Might vs DIO fight on their profiles.

 

[TacticalNuke002]

Add "or lacks options" to my earlier comment.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I personally think that ProfessorLord seems to make sense here.

 

[ProfessorLord]

If I'm being really honest too @Solid, the only one who has agreed with you as far as I'm aware is Asuka. There's a few people who didn't state explicitly, but Dargoo Faust, Polar Kid, Standuser081, Torlikoff(?) and now Antvasima have all sided against your logic.

I just wanted to put that out there.

 

[Torlikoff]

Yes I do agree with DIO having his phantom blood powers.

 

[Antvasima]

So does anything need to be changed here, or should we close this thread?

 

[ProfessorLord]

I think there's a lack of support for Solid right now. I suggest that we wait a day and see if people start agreeing with him. If not then it's safe to assume his opinion isn't popular enough, and we should just close this rather than debating for weeks.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[SolidEye234]

Currently, the best vindications I've proposed was my discussion with Standuser081. I agree we've fairly gotten sidetracked and I would advise anyone to read my counter-arguments to Standuser081 for a better representation. Nonetheless, here are the main points for my position:

>DIO drained the blood of a Cashier after his encounter with Vanilla Ice.

>DIO implied "Maybe" he'll regain control in the original sca .

>Draining the blood of Joseph Joestar seemingly makes him at his peak, yet he remarks that he'll drain the blood of Jotaro if there's any left.

>We have to demonstrate that Part I Dio's body is identical to Part III DIO if we're going to incorporate continous growth. Straizo have mentioned, "Dio's failure was that he enjoyed these abilities. He wanted to test the limit to his ability... "Dio has tested the limitation of his body within the course of Part I which Straizo did not have time to test when encountering Joseph .

There's the possibility that certain limitations that he didn't have within Part 1 do exist in Jonathan as this isn't his original body he's controlling. Nonetheless, he specifially claimed, "Joestar's blood is making this body stronger than ever before" and, "Their lives have returned to the progenitor! "

>There is a slight implication that DIO died after using his (weaker) left half during the climax of Part III.

I should've utilized Occam's razor to keep my arguments on topic instead of a red-herring. Subsequently, Dargoo Faust and I agreed that Dio's Regenerationn speed should be listed under weakness due to his sluggish regen rate. This only applies to Part I however. I'm in direct opposition to DIO's Ice Manipulation, although his Water Manipulation can stay due to his head remaining intact.

You have my respect, Prof.

 

[ProfessorLord]

You do know peaks can change, right? It means maximum value or point, that's a variable since we live in the present. I don't see why him draining Joseph and putting him at peak strength would in any way conflict with him wanting to drain the blood of Jotaro. He didn't even say it would make him stronger, just that he'll try lol.

He did say maybe, but that was in regards to a normal person and before he had lost his leg. But it's pretty explicit that he does when he undergoes an entire transformation.

I don't think Awakened DIO has any limitations seeing as he says its the strongest he's ever been and earlier he said that draining the blood of a person would give him full control. Since then he has drained the blood of a normal person AND a Joestar.

Other than that I don't mind the regen.

 

[SolidEye234]

I'm well-informed that individuals who put hardwork, determination, and a passion can overcome their limitations. It's the maximum point that's either of a specified value or at a specified time that can be expanded upon. Regardless, Jotaro has the blood of a Joestar, which wouldn't be too surprising if he were to gain a "high" from draining what's left of him. DIO's duration of time stop would've increased if he had not died. This is based on DIO becoming more accustomed to The World and the scar around his neck heals.

DIO was jabbed by Star Platinum after getting his skull crushed. You could speculate he'd used most of Joseph's blood on his wounds and some of it to boost himself. He only lost his jacket and the heart-shaped headband that was destroyed by Star Platinum's attacks. I'm also knowledgeable that Awakened DIO sports a deranged and homicidal look and mannerisms, having lost his suave touch. His hair is now disheveled and mostly oriented upwards, while his lips are darker and seem adorned with lipstick.

The only issue I have is DIO's need to drain a Joestar's blood to assimulate with Jonathan. Part I Dio drained the blood of Jonathan Joestar, but never received a specific high from it. DIO used his left half on Jotaro and presumably died during Part III's finale. Apparently, DIO's body was living after his head was annihilated, which I find it interesting since DIO can't maintain control of his body whenever his head is critically damaged.

I've seen the All Might vs DIO page and I can see the reason why people would want to defend the vaporization freezing technique. This specific asset led to DIO's victory and I'm indirectly objecting it due to my position.

Please mention the regen if anyone close this thread.

 

[ProfessorLord]

If that's the only issue you have then that's fine. It doesn't really make sense why draining Joestar blood would make him way stronger and such but it does. I think it's because of blood type or something scientific but really, Araki just wrote that in for plot reasons even if it doesnt make too much logical sense. It is called JoJo's Bizzare Adventure after all.

I will mention the regen. I think we can conclude and close this. I only need to make minor adjustments to Dio Brando's page, so let me know when I can @Antvasima.

 

[SolidEye234]

@Prof.

Another thing I would mention is that Dio Brando's sons show no indication of having inherited his vampirism, although on one occasion Giorno has been shown to use his and other vampires' characteristic "WRYYY" battle cry. It should be noted, that the circumstances behind their births were not straightforward, as Dio was adjusting to Jonathan's body and not fully vampirized. In this regard, DIO healed Pucci's wounded foot by simply touching it.

Araki's immaculate use of the suspension of disbelief and dramatic conventions led to the climatic duel between DIO and Jotaro. A Manga artist's prime priorities would be making a good story with Character Development, World-buildings, an Overarching Plot, Themes, and Conflict. Subjectively, Polnareff is the only Crusader that went through a compelling Character Arc whereas the rest of his companions were quite static. It doesn't take away their charm, however.

I would wait a day and see if other people would respond. Personally, the hamon theory is the only plausible solution to the open-ended question of Jonathan's resistance, but, unfortunately, it'll remain ambiguous for the time being. Whether Araki specifically confirms it or not, he'll be working on the next chapter of JoJolion.

For the sake of the All Might vs DIO page, Good Debate. It was great discussing Jojo with you although our views usually conflict.

 

[Antvasima]

@ProfessorLord

You can edit the page if you wish. You can tell me when I should unlock it.