Difference Between High 1-B and 1-A?

[Palaeocene.epoch1]

I'd assume both the cosmology and lore of the verse would need to have solid proof of that, and even more for the character transcending it to 1-A levels.

yeah, sounds like dependent of cosmology. like, established Outerverse or somesuch.

there's two route to be 1-A. either you embody nothingness before dimension, or being source of dimensional concept/every concept that exists. and I do not mean 'source' as physical thing, but rather source of concepts, including 'concept of dimension'.

Or maybe High 1-B+?

I prefer High 1-B+, sounds more impressive than Low 1-A XD

Actually, I'm pretty sure that the Throne = existence/non-existence, which is why Gods are transdual, and the Singularity where they fight is the "outerverse".

Might be wrong there though.

Throne is just hyperdimensional thing (baseline 1-A. just 'above dimensions) iirc. what Transdual is Taikyoku (it is unity before duality), it exist before Throne itself. Throne ran on Taikyoku, but Taikyoku does not need Throne.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Yeah, but "everything" exists within the Throne, even places like the Twilight Beach and Gladshiemr which are also separate from it.

It's only in the "area" where the Throne exists that is actually an outerversal space

 

[Palaeocene.epoch1]

Yeah, but "everything" exists within the Throne, even places like the Twilight Beach and Gladshiemr which are also separate from it.
It's only in the "area" where the Throne exists that is actually an outerversal space

well, that just means Throne is multiverse itself. it is 'existence'. how does that translate to throne being transdual again?

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

The Throne contains everything within itself, including both existence and non-existence.

The space outside the Throne, where the Throne is, is outerversal space

 

[Palaeocene.epoch1]

The Throne contains everything within itself, including both existence and non-existence.

err what? I might be understanding things wrong, but embodying both existence/non-existence isn't how transduality works?

[value of existence = 1] | [value of non-existence = 0]

embodying both : [existence+nonexistence = 1+0]

while in Transduality page, its said that you need to be outside both 1 and 0, not embody them both. in essence, if Throne has 'value' of '1+0', then transdual being has 'value' of '2'. it is a 'state' completely outside binary logic itself.

transduality means you cannot be affected by concepts that rely on duality because you transcend duality itself. such concepts may include : cause|effect, time|space, life|death and others.

as such by being embodying both existence|non-existence isn't transdual to my understanding...

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

It transcends them but also has both within itself. The two aren't mutually exclusive

 

[Kaltias]

Me reading the thread

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

You see Epoch, to refer this back to the example of the ladder, we need to....

 

[Palaeocene.epoch1]

It transcends them but also has both within itself. The two aren't mutually exclusive

if you say so... 'unity[2] before duality[1+0]' is also a thing so you might be right.

it just bother me because there's someone who argued Living Tribunal to be transdual too because LT embodies duality...

You see Epoch, to refer this back to the example of the ladder, we need to....

... unite all the ladders to reach 1-A? XD

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Yah, embodying duality doesn't mean transcending it.


That second part was just more ladders for Kal's benefit.

 

[Antvasima]

Saikou basically explained this earlier, but 1-A characters are beyond the actual concepts of time and space themselves, even any degree of infinite-dimensional time and space.

For a deeper understanding of the subject we would need to study transcendental metaphysical philosophy, or politely ask DarkLK for input, as he designed the system in the first place.

Regarding the dimensional system, we simply scale by geometric size. For example, you can stack a countably infinite number of 2-D objects on top of each other, and they would still not have any 3-D volume.

This discussion is also turning dangerously close to attempting to undermine our entire tiering system, which is extremely against the regulations of this wiki.

Also, Weekly, it would probably be better if you stop derailing this thread, and start a separate topic instead. However, as other have mentioned, simply transcending or predating a certain degree of time and space does not automatically mean transcending the concepts in their entireties.

 

[Antvasima]

To quote the Tiering System page:

"Characters that have no dimensional limitations, and are beyond scientific definition, in the realm of metaphysics.

Basically, a being or an object which is outside and beyond all concepts of time and space. This is something completely formless, abstract, metaphysical and transcendental. The usual scale does not make sense against a beyond dimensional object. Such beings can not be affected by destruction within the dimensions of time and space, or physical matter and energy. This "space" in which there is no dimension can be the background for any dimensional space. Within such a beyond dimensional "space", a dimensional structure with any number of dimensions can be placed, because there are no restrictions regarding dimensions.

Note that all tier 1-A characters have qualitative superiority over dimensional structures and concepts. Also, mere capability to exist in a beyond dimensional domain does not qualify a character as a beyond dimensional being."

"Outerverse level: Characters that are beyond all dimensional scale. There are two options in order to qualify for this tier: There should either be a qualitative superiority over infinite dimensions; or the superiority over the concept of dimensions (in general) should be clearly explained."

 

[Antvasima]

Hence, we need very clear explanations regarding the superiority to the concepts of any degree of scientific definition of time and space as a whole in order to qualify for 1-A.

 

[MeleeniumRXJ]

This discussion is also turning dangerously close to attempting to undermine our entire tiering system, which is extremely against the regulations of this wiki.

Yeah sorry. I didn't mean for this thread to sound like that. This thread was more of an attempt to try to understand the difference between 1-A and High 1-B in a deeper sense, and not meant to criticize the tiering system it self.

I'm not familiar with a lot of fictions with 1-A characters overall (mainly just a Dragon Ball fan). I'm barely now just getting into Cthulu Mythos.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, you veered off in a direction of undermining the validity of the dimensional system itself.

 

[Kaltias]

About higher dimensional structures being affected by lower dimensional structures (the black hole thing for example) this is because our system follows the geometrical definition of dimensions, not the physical one.

In physics, any object with a mass passively distorts the 4D space-time around itself, while in geometry it doesn't

 

[Antvasima]

That is correct, yes.

 

[MeleeniumRXJ]

So can a truly 3-dimensional character be ranked Tier-1 if they are able to influence higher dimensions to a significant enough extant?

 

[Antvasima]

Given that fiction is recurrently completely illogical, yes. For example, the Molecule Ma is rated as tier High 1-B.

 

[Kaltias]

I mean, I guess that humans with tier 1 reality warping are probably a thing in fiction. But for example, a real life human doesn't have 4D hax via distorting space-time.