Devil May Cry Discussion Thread

[Random-Helper323]

It's never stated who or how, the statement is just "Abigail had power to rival even the demon king". What demon king? At what point in time? none of those are ever answered so we can't exactly pinpoint abigail/sid true power

I don't know about that. We know it was after Mundus, meaning demons were likely comparing him to either Mundus or Argosax. He also overwhelmed base Dante.

Ehhh you do you, as long as it isn't intended to get into a thread or the profiles fine by me

Sadly, I think Hakim fully intends to put it into both of those things.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

I don't know about that. We know it was after Mundus, meaning demons were likely comparing him to either Mundus or Argosax. He also overwhelmed base Dante.

Uh, no. The statement in question never mentions a time frame or time period in which Abigail had power to rival a demon king. It could have been some centuries ago when Argosax was already sealed, it could have been thousands of years ago before both Mundus and Argosax lived, it could have been just as Argosax and Mundus were fighting each other, etc. We will never know, what we actually know is that Mundus and Argosax are the only ones who are said to be on par with each other to the point they had a war that split hell in 2 and Abigail isn't part of the whole conflict.

Sadly, I think Hakim fully intends to put it into both of those things.

pretty sure that's not allowed

 

[Random-Helper323]

Uh, no. The statement in question never mentions a time frame or time period in which Abigail had power to rival a demon king. It could have been some centuries ago when Argosax was already sealed, it could have been thousands of years ago before both Mundus and Argosax lived, it could have been just as Argosax and Mundus were fighting each other, etc. We will never know, what we actually know is that Mundus and Argosax are the only ones who are said to be on par with each other to the point they had a war that split hell in 2 and Abigail isn't part of the whole conflict.

Abigail was sealed in the last 1400 years, which does mean Mundus was sealed already when Abigail was. I know because the guy who sealed him was named Alan Lowell, two names which didn't exist yet when Sparda sealed Mundus.

All the same, he was said to have power on par with the demon king, which at that time was still Mundus, unless it was Argosax.

pretty sure that's not allowed

I've been trying to tell Hakim that it shouldn't be done.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Abigail was sealed in the last 1400 years, which does mean Mundus was sealed already when Abigail was. I know because the guy who sealed him was named Alan Lowell, two names which didn't exist yet when Sparda sealed Mundus.

All the same, he was said to have power on par with the demon king, which at that time was still Mundus, unless it was Argosax.

We have a time frame for that? AFAIK it's never stated in the show.

Assuming that Allan lived a couple of centuries ago it would mean that Abigail at best had power to rivalice stories of the sealed demon kings and at worst it would rivalice the actual sealed demon kings

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

pretty sure that's not allowed

You have to create a thread so that the multipliers are accepted by the wiki

There is a x3 somewhere and the video of Matt saying DT always changes

Any links please?

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

You have to create a thread so that the multipliers are accepted by the wiki

We already did that with the quick and offence hearts. For DT we never did cuz always changing values

Any links please?

Too lazy to go looking for it. Maybe if @Mister6ame6 shows up he can help.

 

[Random-Helper323]

We have a time frame for that? AFAIK it's never stated in the show.

In real life the name Alan was used earliest in the middle ages, notably used in the 6th century, which is after Sparda. The name Lowell is actually significantly newer than that and the name collectively tells us that he was an English man whose name derived from French backgrounds, who lived after the Anglo-Saxon incursion of Britain and whose name origins are the result of other names adapted from other languages into English. The earliest use of Old English (the oldest form of English) in Britain was 450AD.

In short, it's physically impossible for someone to have been named Alan Lowell during or before the time when Sparda fought Mundus, and continued to be so for another few centuries. Ergo, Alan Lowell lived at least a few centuries after Mundus was sealed.

Assuming that Allan lived a couple of centuries ago it would mean that Abigail at best had power to rivalice stories of the sealed demon kings and at worst it would rivalice the actual sealed demon kings

Indeed, except that by the time Vergil met Mundus he was already starting to come unsealed, hence why he could do anything at all. Earlier he might have just been unable to do anything. The demons knew what the demon kings could do at their peak, and the implication behind claiming he had power rivalling the kings was likely that he would have become the new demon king if not for Alan sealing him.

 

[Tanin_iver]

In real life the name Alan was used earliest in the middle ages, notably used in the 6th century, which is after Sparda. The name Lowell is actually significantly newer than that and the name collectively tells us that he was an English man whose name derived from French backgrounds, who lived after the Anglo-Saxon incursion of Britain and whose name origins are the result of other names adapted from other languages into English. The earliest use of Old English in Britain was 450AD.

In short, it's physically impossible for someone to have been named Alan Lowell during or before the time when Sparda fought Mundus, and continued to be so for another few centuries. Ergo, Alan Lowell lived at least a few centuries after Mundus was sealed.

Uhhh, lol. I don't think we should equate real world historical names to a fictional Universe like Devil May Cry. I mean they can't even properly differentiate between Europe and America.

 

[Random-Helper323]

Uhhh, lol. I don't think we should equate real world historical names to a fictional Universe like Devil May Cry. I mean they can't even properly differentiate between Europe and America.

In Sparda's time the name couldn't exist, and his name would have been something of Breton origin. He was also an alchemist which prior to more dealing between countries was used mostly in Egypt and the Middle East and Asia. Alan Lowell would be a funny name for an Ancient Egyptian.

He also clearly enlisted the help of Modeus to do it, with the whole "Sparda's true strength and will" thing being significant to it so Sid knew which brother he needed. So a human enlisted help from Modeus and even hired him and other demons, suggesting there was an absence of demons like Mundus and even Sparda. It even implies further that it was after Sparda if the writings talk about Sparda's apprentice being involved.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

I agree with Random Helper, and the world of Devil May Cry is similar to ours history-wise as the Gnostic religion and the epic poems Dante's Divine Comedy and Virgil's Aeneid are mentioned.

Now for the identity of the Demon King's with whom Abigail's powers rivaled, it could only be Argosax according to the timeline. Mundus was sealed 2000 years ago and then Argosax took advantage of it to reign supreme over the Demon World until Sparda sealed him a few hundred years before DMC2. Between the time Argosax was sealed by Sparda and the time Urizen became the new Demon King, there were 4 powerful demons fighting for power but Abigail was superior to them according to Sid.

 

[Random-Helper323]

I agree with Random Helper, and the world of Devil May Cry is somewhat similar to ours history-wise as the Gnostic religion and the epic poems Dante's Divine Comedy and Virgil's Aeneid are mentioned.

Now for the identity of the Demon King's with whom Abigail's powers rivaled, it could only be Argosax according to the timeline. Mundus was sealed 2000 years ago and then Argosax took advantage of it to reign supreme over the Demon World until Sparda sealed him a few hundred years before DMC2. Between the time Argosax was sealed by Sparda and the time Urizen became the new Demon King, there were 4 powerful demons fighting for power but Abigail was superior to them according to Sid.

Actually, that makes sense. A lot of it. Argosax fought Mundus for dominion before Mundus was sealed, then Sparda sealed Argosax only a few centuries before the modern day. That's about 1500-1700 years in which Argosax was the strongest demon, albeit probably laying low to avoid Sparda. If Abigail rivalled Argosax during any point in that time, then that'd fit the description we receive.

They could also of course be referring to Mundus' power from before he was sealed of course. Safe to say they weren't referring to the previous one.

 

[Robo432343]

No more 2-A means no more CM 1?

Devil May Cry: Metaphysical Revisions (Part-1)

Names Explanation Names are a component of one's soul that can reshape reality on a whim if altered as we know. These names precedes the universe they operate under and was there since the creation of Demon World altogether so it has the range to effect the Underworld itself. Now frankly, these...

vsbattles.com

 

[Random-Helper323]

No more 2-A means no more CM 1?

Devil May Cry: Metaphysical Revisions (Part-1)

Names Explanation Names are a component of one's soul that can reshape reality on a whim if altered as we know. These names precedes the universe they operate under and was there since the creation of Demon World altogether so it has the range to effect the Underworld itself. Now frankly, these...

vsbattles.com

Not sure it makes any difference to that. CM1 was there before 2-A unless I'm mistaken.

 

[Tanin_iver]

No more 2-A means no more CM 1?

Devil May Cry: Metaphysical Revisions (Part-1)

Names Explanation Names are a component of one's soul that can reshape reality on a whim if altered as we know. These names precedes the universe they operate under and was there since the creation of Demon World altogether so it has the range to effect the Underworld itself. Now frankly, these...

vsbattles.com

No, they are unrelated. That thread only emphasizes Hellfilth gets CM1 for being the source of all Nightmares.

 

[Random-Helper323]

That thread only emphasizes Hellfilth gets CM1 for being the source of all Nightmares.

If and when Filthy gets a page on the Wiki...

 

[Thehunter077]

No more 2-A means no more CM 1?

Devil May Cry: Metaphysical Revisions (Part-1)

Names Explanation Names are a component of one's soul that can reshape reality on a whim if altered as we know. These names precedes the universe they operate under and was there since the creation of Demon World altogether so it has the range to effect the Underworld itself. Now frankly, these...

vsbattles.com

Robo for Sparda sake, you should read the thread my man...

 

[Thehunter077]

In real life the name Alan was used earliest in the middle ages, notably used in the 6th century, which is after Sparda. The name Lowell is actually significantly newer than that and the name collectively tells us that he was an English man whose name derived from French backgrounds, who lived after the Anglo-Saxon incursion of Britain and whose name origins are the result of other names adapted from other languages into English. The earliest use of Old English (the oldest form of English) in Britain was 450AD.

This kinda make sense, considering Alan is the only sorcerer who able to command many demons, even Teme Ni Gru was build waaay back when Humans desired demonic power. But not sure of what century is.

 

[Tanin_iver]

Robo for Sparda sake, you should read the thread my man...

It's Robo we are talking about.

If and when Filthy gets a page on the Wiki...

Lol. But I am interested to see PoC profiles.

 

[Robo432343]

No, they are unrelated. That thread only emphasizes Hellfilth gets CM1 for being the source of all Nightmares.

nah i got confused because the op used stuff from PoC and i thought you can't use PoC anymore for the current profiles
mb

 

[SuperSonicTL]

No more 2-A means no more CM 1?

Devil May Cry: Metaphysical Revisions (Part-1)

Names Explanation Names are a component of one's soul that can reshape reality on a whim if altered as we know. These names precedes the universe they operate under and was there since the creation of Demon World altogether so it has the range to effect the Underworld itself. Now frankly, these...

vsbattles.com

How is that related to CM1? Helfilth has its own CM1 arguments independent of the main one.

 

[Robo432343]

How is that related to CM1? Helfilth has its own CM1 arguments independent of the main one.

yeah i get it now
i got scared cm 1 would get removed because you used stuff from PoC and PoC isn't allowed anymore (?) from Tony's thread

 

[SuperSonicTL]

yeah i get it now
i got scared cm 1 would get removed because you used stuff from PoC and PoC isn't allowed anymore (?) from Tony's thread

Tony’s thread is kinda oxymoronic but I don’t really have the time to get into it right now. Anyways, there’s nothing to fear about CM1 getting removed.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

In real life the name Alan was used earliest in the middle ages, notably used in the 6th century, which is after Sparda. The name Lowell is actually significantly newer than that and the name collectively tells us that he was an English man whose name derived from French backgrounds, who lived after the Anglo-Saxon incursion of Britain and whose name origins are the result of other names adapted from other languages into English. The earliest use of Old English (the oldest form of English) in Britain was 450AD.

In short, it's physically impossible for someone to have been named Alan Lowell during or before the time when Sparda fought Mundus, and continued to be so for another few centuries. Ergo, Alan Lowell lived at least a few centuries after Mundus was sealed.

yeah... that's not proof

Indeed, except that by the time Vergil met Mundus he was already starting to come unsealed, hence why he could do anything at all. Earlier he might have just been unable to do anything. The demons knew what the demon kings could do at their peak, and the implication behind claiming he had power rivalling the kings was likely that he would have become the new demon king if not for Alan sealing him.

We have 4 stages for known Mundus

Sealed - DMC3 unsealed - DMC1 Avatar/Statue - Full power

The first one is irrelevant, Mundus isn't a problem, the second one is more or less on par with the twins at the end of DMC3 (more vergil than Dante) but weaker than them individually, the third one literally stomped DMC1 Dante with extreme ease and the last one lost to sparda dt dante

Abigail's power could be anywhere on that level so once again we have no clear standing for his actual power.

Not to mention the already deceased Pluto who would be weaker than Mundus and if PoC was canon it would be way weaker than DMC1 Dante

 

[BlackDarkness679]

Why almost all the time somebody says something you are against it with your own interpretation...literally what have you done for this series lately in terms of improving it? All you seem to do is shut things down and remove stuff

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Yeah. I'm doing God's work.

 

[Tanin_iver]

Why almost all the time somebody says something you are against it with your own interpretation...literally what have you done for this series lately in terms of improving it? All you seem to do is shut things down and remove stuff

Trying to aim for staff by downplaying now and then wank DMC later perhaps?

 

[Huesito88]

Yeah. I'm doing the Hokage's work.

Fixed

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Fixed

Oh shit that works lol

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

yeah... that's not proof

Well, you have to explain why it's not proof.

Abigail's power could be anywhere on that level so once again we have no clear standing for his actual power.

Abigail can only be the same level as a full powered Mundus because it wouldn't make sense for Sid to say that Abigail is a demon powerful enough to rule the Demon World alone if he isn't more powerful than a Sealed Mundus, a DMC3 Mundus that is inferior to DMC3 Vergil and Dante or a Mundus in his statue form that he's probably never taken before.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

Why almost all the time somebody says something you are against it with your own interpretation...literally what have you done for this series lately in terms of improving it? All you seem to do is shut things down and remove stuff

Anything but improvement, yes.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Well, you have to explain why it's not proof.

Because we are using real life logic to justify a name not existing in a verse in which modified M1911s called Luce & Ombra existed before those guns were even made.

Or in other words, trying to use real life as a cap doesn't really work

Abigail can only be the same level as a full powered Mundus because it wouldn't make sense for Sid to say that Abigail is a demon powerful enough to rule the Demon World alone if he isn't more powerful than a Sealed Mundus, a DMC3 Mundus that is inferior to DMC3 Vergil and Dante or a Mundus in his statue form that he's probably never taken before.

the statement is something along the lines of "power to rival even a demon king"

If we are talking about ruling the demon world then that's easy, Mundus got sealed some years prior by Dante in DMC1 so Mundus isn't a factor anymore. Argosax is still sealed and it isn't until some months later that the whole thing in DMC2 goes down so he isn't an issue either. Abigail, holding power above 90% of demons is more than enough to take control of the demon world because the others are sealed or don't care.

Bolverk is an example here, guy would absolutely demolish Abigail but is protecting Argosax temple.

 

[Random-Helper323]

Because we are using real life logic to justify a name not existing in a verse in which modified M1911s called Luce & Ombra existed before those guns were even made.

The Temen-Ni-Gru features a perpetual motion machine. Technology is obviously more advanced in DMC. However, DMC1 also states that the Temen-Ni-Gru fire bats aren't accustomed to fighting guns, so an obvious issue arises, namely, just because Sparda used Luce and Ombra doesn't tell us when he did. It could be somewhat recent.

Or in other words, trying to use real life as a cap doesn't really work

Still serves as an indicator.

the statement is something along the lines of "power to rival even a demon king"

If we are talking about ruling the demon world then that's easy, Mundus got sealed some years prior by Dante in DMC1 so Mundus isn't a factor anymore. Argosax is still sealed and it isn't until some months later that the whole thing in DMC2 goes down so he isn't an issue either. Abigail, holding power above 90% of demons is more than enough to take control of the demon world because the others are sealed or don't care.

Except that isn't power to rival a demon king.

Bolverk is an example here, guy would absolutely demolish Abigail but is protecting Argosax temple.

Proof he'd demolish Abigail?

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

the statement is something along the lines of "power to rival even a demon king"

If we are talking about ruling the demon world then that's easy, Mundus got sealed some years prior by Dante in DMC1 so Mundus isn't a factor anymore. Argosax is still sealed and it isn't until some months later that the whole thing in DMC2 goes down so he isn't an issue either. Abigail, holding power above 90% of demons is more than enough to take control of the demon world because the others are sealed or don't care.

Bolverk is an example here, guy would absolutely demolish Abigail but is protecting Argosax temple.

He also said that he had enough power to rule the Demon World.

Sid said that Abigail's power rivaled the Demon King, so a specific character, and the one that makes more sense in the timeline is Argosax (who was equal to Mundus). And just being more powerful than 90% other demons is not enough to be a Demon King.

Where did you see that Bolverk > Abigail?

Because we are using real life logic to justify a name not existing in a verse in which modified M1911s called Luce & Ombra existed before those guns were even made.

Or in other words, trying to use real life as a cap doesn't really work

He used real life history to prove it, which works because the world of Devil May Cry has the same history as ours (demons stuff excepted of course)

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

He also said that he had enough power to rule the Demon World.

With the top dogs sealed there is no reason not to, especially if Abigail was in said range of power. Still it isn't a clear indication of its power compared to the others.

Sid said that Abigail's power rivaled the Demon King, so a specific character, and the one that makes more sense in the timeline is Argosax (who was equal to Mundus). And just being more powerful than 90% other demons is not enough to be a Demon King.

Ackshually... did you know the english dubs and subs of the anime are quite trash? The spanish dub and subs are more reliable (don't ask me why, I noticed it with some chapters years ago and never forgot) but basically they say something along the lines of "The power of Abigail who once stood up against the demon king"

Being stronger than the vast majority of demons is how Mundus and Argosax got the throne, dunno what you are talking about

Where did you see that Bolverk > Abigail?

Simple scaling. Bolverk fought DMC2 Dante, twice while Sid got folded by anime DT Dante.

He used real life history to prove it, which works because the world of Devil May Cry has the same history as ours (demons stuff excepted of course)

Except it doesn't really work considering how wacky DMC is in general. Yeah, some stuff is somewhat similar as ours but we can't really ascertain something like that is the exact same in DMC where you had crazy human sorcerers built a tower that breaches between dimensions to reach what's basically hell well before Sparda or Mundus did their thing.

 

[Random-Helper323]

but basically they say something along the lines of "The power of Abigail who once stood up against the demon king"

That's... actually more clear evidence than the term "rivalled". It is saying that he stood up to the demon king, as in directly. That's actually even more blatant than saying he rivalled him.

Simple scaling. Bolverk fought DMC2 Dante, twice while Sid got folded by anime DT Dante.

Griffon fought DMC1 Dante three times. He doesn't scale to DMC1 Dante. DMC2 Dante also stomped Argosax, so unless we're saying Bolverk is above Argosax, his fighting Dante means nothing.

Except it doesn't really work considering how wacky DMC is in general. Yeah, some stuff is somewhat similar as ours but we can't really ascertain something like that is the exact same in DMC where you had crazy human sorcerers built a tower that breaches between dimensions to reach what's basically hell well before Sparda or Mundus did their thing.

That's technology. Names are not the same as technology. We know that demonic power allows for far greater technology than real life, but that's unknown to most humans precisely so it could be our world, but no such evidence exists that human history as known by most is vastly different or that human names throughout history are vastly different.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

"The power of Abigail who once stood up against the demon king"

It doesn't change what I said. "The" demon king means he's talking about a specific demon, not demon kings in general.

Being stronger than the vast majority of demons is how Mundus and Argosax got the throne, dunno what you are talking about

They are supposed to be more powerful than all other demons, not that 10% of them are as strong or stronger than them like you said with Abigail.

Simple scaling. Bolverk fought DMC2 Dante, twice while Sid got folded by anime DT Dante.

That's not how video game powerscaling works. In this logic most of the bosses of the DMC games scale to Dante.

Except it doesn't really work considering how wacky DMC is in general. Yeah, some stuff is somewhat similar as ours but we can't really ascertain something like that is the exact same in DMC where you had crazy human sorcerers built a tower that breaches between dimensions to reach what's basically hell well before Sparda or Mundus did their thing.

Fiction in general has different physics from ours but that doesn't stop us from applying real world physics to these fictional verses, especially for calcs. The fact that humans built a giant tower that travels through dimensions doesn't change the fact that the history of DMC's Human World is the same as ours in almost every way. There is even no connection between the history of the origins/etymology of names and the history of technological advancement (especially since the people who build portals for demons are probably isolated cases and do not affect the technological advancement of DMC's Human World society in general).

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

That's... actually more clear evidence than the term "rivalled". It is saying that he stood up to the demon king, as in directly. That's actually even more blatant than saying he rivalled him.

I know, that's why I brought it up. The problem still lies on what king Abigail fought.

Griffon fought DMC1 Dante three times. He doesn't scale to DMC1 Dante. DMC2 Dante also stomped Argosax, so unless we're saying Bolverk is above Argosax, his fighting Dante means nothing.

BIG difference between DMC 1 and DMC 2 personalities.

DMC2 Dante didn't let anyone or anything survive or get away (besides Arius for the plot), the fact that Bolverk fought him and managed to run away shows how strong the demon god is. As for him scaling above Argosax... that was actually debated a long time back but we never reached a consensus.

That's technology. Names are not the same as technology. We know that demonic power allows for far greater technology than real life, but that's unknown to most humans precisely so it could be our world, but no such evidence exists that human history as known by most is vastly different or that human names throughout history are vastly different.

It was an example of how things that are "modern" were already a thing way back in the past of DMC.

We can also go with PoC for this as Mathilda sealed a demons over 2k years ago and the name Mathilda (from a quick google search) didn't pop up until the 11 century.

It doesn't change what I said. "The" demon king means he's talking about a specific demon, not demon kings in general.

If you look at the blog that is used for scaling Abigail it actually says demon kings in general but alas spanish should be more precise here.

They are supposed to be more powerful than all other demons, not that 10% of them are as strong or stronger than them like you said with Abigail.

Except, you know, some demons don't care about the crown or the throne so we can't realistically place them in the same category.

Both Mundus and Argosax were equals and yet Mundus was considered King/Emperor while Argosax took the throne at some point after that.

That's not how video game powerscaling works. In this logic most of the bosses of the DMC games scale to Dante.

I guess you haven't played DMC2. Short explanation, Dante is the most serious he has ever been and basically went around killing everything (except Arius for very contrived Plot reasons) and the fact that Bolverk not only fought him once and managed to run away shows he is a cut above the rest.

If you bring the whole Argosax thing like Random did, there were actually talks about him scaling above Argosax but we never reached a consensus and the topic was forgotten.

Fiction in general has different physics from ours but that doesn't stop us from applying real world physics to these fictional verses, especially for calcs. The fact that humans built a giant tower that travels through dimensions doesn't change the fact that the history of DMC's Human World is the same as ours in almost every way. There is even no connection between the history of the origins/etymology of names and the history of technological advancement (especially since the people who build portals for demons are probably isolated cases and do not affect the technological advancement of DMC's Human World society in general).

We are talking a very large group of people who worshipped evil to the point they created this tower, said tower contains a ton of knowledge and all of this was done before Mundus came into the picture. Using PoC here, the book of demons was actually found inside the temen-ni-gru library (the one you fight Lady in) and the book of demons was created by Matriarch Mathilda from a demon she sealed.

Mathilda as a name wasn't registered up until the 11 century (could be a bit wrong but it's irrelevant to the point) while the Matriarch existed like 1 thousand years prior to that.

Names in the DMC world existing in different eras compared to our real world is a thing and most likely the same with Allan.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

Bolverk is scaled to Post War Sparda no ? His rating is indepedent of Dante althout I agree with Tony about DMC2 Dante, in particular, being rather deadly when he doesn't have someone to save or something

 

[Mister6ame6]

DMC2 Bolverk should get a key on his own tbh he seems stronger them when he fought Sparda in the past, he wanted revenge from his defeat on his hands and likely confused Dante as being his dad, but still survives one encounter agaist the most serius Dante ever!

It also confirmed that the Underworld residents are more stronger now them when they were 2000 years ago in DMC1.

Dante fought a more stronger and deadly version of Bolverk and the Demon Kings them his father Sparda did in the past!

 

[Thehunter077]

DMC2 Bolverk should get a key on his own tbh he seems stronger them when he fought Sparda in the past, he wanted revenge from his defeat on his hands and likely confused Dante as being his dad, but still survives one encounter agaist the most serius Dante ever!

Or DMC 2 Dante isn't take him seriously