Devil May Cry Discussion Thread

[Follow_Doctor_Freeman]

As far as DMC's future as a franchise goes, I would like a good new game in that series, especially since aside from mechanical tweaks there isn't as much potential for fan creation as we get in Half-Life mods & whatnot. But I don't trust new staff to take the helm after Itsuno. Yet another unfortunate instance of old-guard talent bound for an uncertain future without their former resources. Granted, it was hard to tell what could be done without Kamiya's founding the series in the first place, and things got quite good after the initial misstep of DMC2. But thing is, most of this new wave of "character action" games is pretty underwhelming.

Critics loved stuff like Sifu & Stellar Blade for the most part, but those of us who want to engage in fundamentals such as spacing (which even the teleportation, Devil Bringer, & Royal Guard still respected) are a bit starved with how much omnipresent omnidirectional counters have turned the field into Simon Says with cutscenes. Seeing how utterly broken legacy series such as Tekken have ended up, I distrust the newer generations of game designers, who are more likely to be basing their work to literally cater to DarkSydePhil than to heed the ingenuity of the still-ahead-of-their-time arcade cornerstonesthat inspired Kamiya, Itsuno, etc. We got legends like DMC because their devs played score-centric classic shmups & beat-em-ups, but now walk-and-talk games with lots of stat numbers are the "basis of good game design" even without microtransactions or casino-based key-jangling presentation. The Style performance assessment system is something a AAA studio would NEVER come up with from the blue now, too much "friction" to semi-objectively assert that you can't just counter-spam to be the best at the game.

As far as plot premises go, I think it'd have to be a true breath of fresh air mixing things up instead of plumbing the past. What we didn't know we want moreso than what we think we want. Like the intrigue with Nero instead of it being "just Dante vs Vergil on repeat with absurd stake-raising & graphical touchups" as TGBS put it. More importantly, they'd have to not only fend off producers trying to water DMC down, but also force the game designers themselves to watch and rewatch The Electric Underground for days on end to make sure that mechanical complexity is respected:

 

[Random-Helper323]

The debate is whether Nero is superior to Vergil and Dante in AP or not, I don't really see how Vergil managing to impale Nero proves that is superior to him when he ultimately lost the exchange.


Yes Vergil was exhausted, but that doesn't mean he would have won against Nero if he wasn't, this exchange alone doesn't prove it imo.

The exchange isn't alone though. I'm contrasting an exhausted Vergil putting up a real fight against Nero with a less exhausted Dante getting stomped by Vergil, and a similarly exhausted Vergil and Dante getting stomped by Arkham while he admits they'd be stomping him otherwise.

Ultimately, the only argument for thinking Vergil and Dante are even more powerful than Nero in DMC5 is literally just one interaction where a tired Vergil holds his own against Nero for a bit and ends up losing, then ultimately losing the fight.

Personally, I think Nero is now superior to Dante and Vergil because it makes more sense lorewise and it's even supported by it. I don't think we'll ever agree on this (at least not until the next game).

Which directly contrasts with a less exhausted Dante getting stomped by Vergil earlier in the same game.

And no, the obvious argument that they're above him is they've always been above him, and the burdon of proof is on the claim that he surpassed them. Meanwhile the only evidence for that is a fight which wasn't one sided between him and an exhausted Vergil. Meaning the fight used to demonstrate his power ironically demonstrates a genuine challenge posed by an exhausted Vergil, an enemy he would have easily stomped if he was stronger than a full strength Vergil.

To simplify, the gap between Nero and an exhausted Vergil was shown to be smaller than the gap between a healthy Vergil and a less exhausted Dante.

Logically, if Vergil was more exhausted than Dante was prior, then that should have made him an easier opponent for a healthy equal (let alone a superior) than Dante had been, and yet we see him put up a good fight against Nero and even win a sword fight. Meanwhile we saw the aforementioned less exhausted Dante getting stomped by Vergil.

In any case there is still the problem of the Devil Sword Sparda in DMC1

It was extremely blatant that he needed the sword. The story shows it, and the game directly tells us.

 

[Thehunter077]

I had a debate with GilverTheProtoAngelo once where he told me that Dante only managed to defeat Mundus via Devil Sword Sparda and that he only reached Sparda's level at the end of the Anime against Abigail.

The moment he didn't use DSS against very much weakened Mundus, Dante couldn't even scratch him. Mundus even says that his power are to weak to do that, so yeah at that time DSS is only thing that can harm Mundus.

Dante also not reaching Sparda level at DMC anime until vol 2 came in.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

This is very much a big misunderstanding and, without offense, it comes as if you never played DMC 1.

I disagree because there are statements that prove that the Devil Sword Sparda is not the only reason why Dante was able to defeat Mundus and that he also did it via his own newly unlocked power:

• (2:52)
• There is a statement in a guidebook that straight up says that Dante defeated Mundus via the combined power of the Devil Sword Sparda and his own unleashed power, but I don't remember which book I saw it in and I'm still looking for it.
• In another guidebook it is said that Dante was too lazy to unleash the true power inherited from his father, which implies that this is what he finally did at the end of DMC1. But again I don't know where I saw it and I'm still looking

Let's start with the history of DMC video. For starters, it is only a recapitulation of all the events in the series that had led to DMC5, it doesn't go in depth regarding said events.

The line "In the face of Mundus' cruelty, Dante's anger erupted lie never before...the true power Dante inhereted from his father Sparda was unleashed, which he used to seal Mundus away once again" This is literally summarizing the whole fight. With the context of DMC1 we know that "Dante unleashing the power he inhereted from his father" is about his being able to use the Devil Sword Sparda to it's fullest extent, achieving this form is what allowed him to contest Mundus power.

Same with the Triny of Fates, the context from DMC1 is important as it complements what the book says. Also, quick note how Mundus felt threatened by both Vergil/Nelo (despite being already under his control) and Dante. The only reason why Dante was able to stop Mundus is because Mundus himself feared that Dante could eventually become as strong as Sparda, otherwise Mundus could have literally folded Dante after opening the portal and going after him.

The scan you are talking about (the DMC2 one) explicitly says how Dante's heritage and the Devil Arm that were passed to him were necessary to confront and defeat Mundus, this is because only Dante could exploit the DSS and get the full extent of its power out because he is Sparda's son.

But the most important thing is this:
-

What Dante is describing here is literally what happened to him when Mundus killed Trish, what happened to Sparda when Mundus attacked humans 2k years ago, and what happened to Nero at the end of DMC5 when Dante and Vergil were about to kill each other, which made them much more powerful.

You are incorrect. At this point Dante already had learned the value of Justice, Humanity and Heart (literally one of the biggest plot points of DMC3 Dante's Awakening). This is absolutely NOT the same thing as Sparda awakening to Justice, nor is it what happened to Nero at the end of 5 (Nero story in 4 is about his protecting others lmao).

Like the scans you posted say, what we explicitly see in the game, is that Dante's anger is finally unleashed without restraint. This is what allowed him to tap into his demonic heritage and use Sparda to the fullest of it's ability.

Narratively for Dante at the end of DMC1, it's the equivalent of Goku unlocking SSJ1 when Frieza kills Krillin during the Namek arc. It wouldn't make sense if Dante didn't have a significant and definitive power-up (and it would also go against the core theme) and only beat Mundus because he had the right weapon.

Not really. As we see during their final confrontation, a weakened almost dead Mundus was more than enough to match Dante's power in the human world which is consistent with him in the statue form almost killing Dante quite easily. If this was akin to Goku SSJ1 against Frieza then Dante would have used the same power he employed and fought Mundus off or even killed him at that point, similar to what Goku did to Frieza, instead he is weaker and barely able to fight Mundus off.

Also, the problem here comes from the idea of Dante awakening to justice and gaining a power boost when that is not the case as I explained above.

This was retconned by Before the Nightmare and Visions of V. In it, Dante says that all those "so-called" powerful demons and demon kings were sheer disappointments. It wouldn't make sense to say that if one of those powerful demons had defeated and literally crucified him in the first round (which is why I think retroactively Dante was never in trouble against Abigail).

He mentions 3 titles of which they clearly belong to Demon Kings/Gods. Abigail had none of that and it's power was only stated to once rival a demon king or something along those lines.

Now, the argument here for abigail/sid being a disappointment after Dante literally got stomped is that, like always, he grew stronger in response to the guy and one shotted him quite easily after that.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

As for the Nero debate... yeah Nero's power is up in the air. He definitely DOES NOT scale to the twins at their peak and weakened Vergil is too much of an unknown for us to reliably scale anywhere considering past cases with the same kind of thing with Arkham (who even 3!Manga Dante was already able to easily kill if he so much as wished) being able to confront both twins and come on top without much trouble.

The last time we argued, it ranged from anywhere from Mundus level to Post-Fruit Urizen.

Also, come on, Dante saying the ***** slap nearly killed him isn't literal

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

You are incorrect. At this point Dante already had learned the value of Justice, Humanity and Heart (literally one of the biggest plot points of DMC3 Dante's Awakening). This is absolutely NOT the same thing as Sparda awakening to Justice, nor is it what happened to Nero at the end of 5 (Nero story in 4 is about his protecting others lmao).

Like the scans you posted say, what we explicitly see in the game, is that Dante's anger is finally unleashed without restraint. This is what allowed him to tap into his demonic heritage and use Sparda to the fullest of it's ability.

In the scan Dante literally says that Sparda's victory over Mundus was because his "caring for others explodes and turns into anger", that this is what made him more powerful than Mundus. What Dante describes here is also exactly what happened to him when he saw Trish being killed by Mundus and what happened to Nero when he saw his uncle and father were going to kill each other.

Dante isn't just talking about understanding love and justice (which Dante and Nero already felt before their boost), he's talking about feeling enormous anger when your loved ones or people you care about are put in danger or killed.

Not really. As we see during their final confrontation, a weakened almost dead Mundus was more than enough to match Dante's power in the human world which is consistent with him in the statue form almost killing Dante quite easily. If this was akin to Goku SSJ1 against Frieza then Dante would have used the same power he employed and fought Mundus off or even killed him at that point, similar to what Goku did to Frieza, instead he is weaker and barely able to fight Mundus off.

Also, the problem here comes from the idea of Dante awakening to justice and gaining a power boost when that is not the case as I explained above.

In the cutscene Mundus just says that Dante is weaker because he is in the Human World compared to the first boss fight...

He mentions 3 titles of which they clearly belong to Demon Kings/Gods. Abigail had none of that and it's power was only stated to once rival a demon king or something along those lines.

Abigail was a Demon King in all but name and Sid would state that was the case so he is also included in Dante statement

Now, the argument here for abigail/sid being a disappointment after Dante literally got stomped is that, like always, he grew stronger in response to the guy and one shotted him quite easily after that.

Apart from Gilver, Vergil, Abigail and Chen I don't really see when this happened to him, and it's always contradictory to say that an opponent has disappointing power when that same opponent has crucified you.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

And no, the obvious argument that they're above him is they've always been above him, and the burdon of proof is on the claim that he surpassed them.

Nero explicitly has more potential than Dante and Vergil and received the most powerful power-up in the verse, so yeah I take that as enough proof that Nero has currently surpassed them and if he hasn't it's bullshit writing/lore-wise.

It was extremely blatant that he needed the sword. The story shows it, and the game directly tells us.

I know that, but it still doesn't make sense to me because I think Dante had already logically surpassed Sparda when he saw Mundus kill Trish.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

2000 years ago, Sparda received a huge power boost that allowed him to defeat Mundus after he saw Mundus attacking the humans he had grown attached to.

2000 years later Dante received the same power up as Sparda because he saw a woman who looked like his mother (a person he was obviously attached to) being killed by Mundus and, for some reason, Dante was still weaker than Sparda AND Mundus after this power up even though he had more potential than the first (said in the game itself according to Griffon when he felt Dante's demonic energy). Also the beauty of the story is that Trish was basically a creation of Mundus to trap Dante, serving to prove that the love we attach to a person is a weakness and that cruelty is better. But ultimately this trap turned against him because the love that Dante had for his mother literally gave him the same power up that his father had 2000 years earlier and which allowed him to defeat Mundus.

It would have made much more sense narratively if Dante had received his own power-up and had the strength alone to defeat Mundus, but no, Dante could only beat Mundus thanks to daddy sword (I'm not attacking anyone here, I'm just expressing frustration at this bullshit which is sadly canon in the story)

 

[Random-Helper323]

Nero explicitly has more potential than Dante and Vergil and received the most powerful power-up in the verse, so yeah I take that as enough proof that Nero has currently surpassed them and if he hasn't it's bullshit writing/lore-wise.

It's not the biggest anything. He had an emotional outburst. He didn't awaken to justice since he already did that way back in DMC4.

And again, his only feat is beating (after a genuine fight) an exhausted Vergil that could barely stand, meanwhile Vergil easily stomped a less exhausted Dante. Burdon of proof is on you to prove he surpassed them and the feat doesn't prove it, otherwise Vergil stomping an exhausted Dante would prove Vergil was stronger.

I know that, but it still doesn't make sense to me because I think Dante had already logically surpassed Sparda when he saw Mundus kill Trish.

What's explicitly shown and stated in the game >>>>>>> "I think it logically should happen differently".

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

At this point Dante already had learned the value of Justice, Humanity and Heart (literally one of the biggest plot points of DMC3 Dante's Awakening).

Also about that, "Dante ́s awakening" refers to Dante fully accepting and unlocking his demonic and human heritage (at the beginning of DMC3 he only accepted his human side) and what allowed him to defeat Vergil at the end because the latter only accepted his demonic heritage. It's like Nero in DMC4 who only thought he was human at the beginning and didn't accept his demonic side, which changed when he got Yamato.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

It's not the biggest anything. He had an emotional outburst. He didn't awaken to justice since he already did that way back in DMC4.

The power up he had in DMC4 is the same one Dante had in DMC3, which is not at all the same one Sparda had 2000 years ago against Mundus, that's what Nero had in DMC5. So yes, it's the most powerful power up because it literally represents the core theme of the verse.

What's explicitly shown and stated in the game >>>>>>> "I think it logically should happen differently"

It was only shown via a single in-game animation, not stated, but yeah I know my headcanon doesn't matter, but it's still bullshit

 

[Thehunter077]

My take on Nero is same as Tony, he currently still below twins, yet. No doubt he would surpass both of them in future but right now, The Twins is a top dog of DMC universe.

The whole mission 20 Nero vs Vergil is just him proving to Vergil that he would accept his existence... By beat the shit out of him, Nero using DT against weakened Vergil already prove he ain't there yet, you can even see the result of the fight and Vergil isn't even not in worse condition, unlike his fight with Dante.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

Didnt both Dante and Vergil much later backhand him also and got knocked down too? Like Nero is around the range of a top tier, but not their peak, still impressive he could do dmg or fight them though to some degree

 

[RedReaper616]

Didnt both Dante and Vergil much later backhand him also and got knocked down too? Like Nero is around the range of a top tier, but not their peak, still impressive he could do dmg or fight them though to some degree

Additionally, both left bruises, and Dante’s was considerably bigger (which makes sense when you realize Dante spent all of Nero V Vergil regaining stamina and thus could muster more force against Nero than Verhil could. Plus, a little paypack).

Whereas Dante didn't have a bruise at all.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

Whereas Dante didn't have a bruise at all.

Tbf Nero drew blood from the ***** slap given

 

[SuperSonicTL]

Tbf Nero drew blood from the ***** slap given

Hence, my point. He really did rearranged his jaws if you actually pause there at the right time.

 

[Random-Helper323]

Tbf Nero drew blood from the ***** slap given

Against a heavily exhausted Dante though. We literally see him struggling to walk properly right before Nero hits him.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

In the scan Dante literally says that Sparda's victory over Mundus was because his "caring for others explodes and turns into anger", that this is what made him more powerful than Mundus. What Dante describes here is also exactly what happened to him when he saw Trish being killed by Mundus and what happened to Nero when he saw his uncle and father were going to kill each other.

Dante isn't just talking about understanding love and justice (which Dante and Nero already felt before their boost), he's talking about feeling enormous anger when your loved ones or people you care about are put in danger or killed.

"When the emotion of caring for others explodes and turns into anger, the human spirit can display remarkable strength.
This energy, which may be considered the source of demonic power, is only used at half its potential by demons who don't know positive emotions...
That's why Mundus was defeated by Sparda
My father, having felt the warmth of human hears, woke up to justice and he gained a power that demons didn't naturally have: the power to protect others"


Let's not twist the context of these scans, shall we? Kaitai Shinsho explicitly tells you that Sparda gained a "human heart" and thus was able to use whatever bs power comes from having "human emotions".

Again, this is NOT the same thing that happened to Dante with Mundus, nor Nero in DMC5. Both Dante and Nero already know about "the human heart", both of them have one (metaphorically, literally, doesn't matter) they already are "awoken to Justice". Nero tells Sanctus that Sparda had a heart and that's why he had power further showing he know about this and is there too.

In the cutscene Mundus just says that Dante is weaker because he is in the Human World compared to the first boss fight...

Which has been retconed to hell and back, but let's ignore that and say it still holds weight in todays world, Dante being weaker shouldn't matter because Mundus is ******* dying and weakened to the highest degree. If he had achieved Sparda levels of power he would have easily defeated a WEAKENED AND DYING Mundus quite easily.

Abigail was a Demon King in all but name and Sid would state that was the case so he is also included in Dante statement

Nope, Abigail was just a strong demon that didn't even register in Dante's knowledge until Sid told him about it. Abigail never was a contender for the throne, is never regarded in the same level as Argosax or Mundus and it has no feats beyonda vague "power to rival a demon king" statement. Taken at face value it ranges anywhere from Pluto (the weakest of them all) to sealed Mundus or Argosax the Chaos to full power Mundus and The Despair Embodied.

The simple fact that it was summoned and controlled by Allan Lowell tells me it didn't happen when Mundus and Argosax were having a war over the demon world, also the fact that neither Mundus or Argosax were threatened by other demons except themselves and Sparda is quite telling

Apart from Gilver, Vergil, Abigail and Chen I don't really see when this happened to him, and it's always contradictory to say that an opponent has disappointing power when that same opponent has crucified you.

You literally pointed 4 examples of such thing, there is also Beowulf, Urizen who he fought for over 24 hours while said demon was constantly getting pumped full of demonic steroids and the dozens of black knights that came after Gilver.

It's not exactly contradictory when you literally fly swat said enemy after a 20 minute power nap

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Also about that, "Dante ́s awakening" refers to Dante fully accepting and unlocking his demonic and human heritage (at the beginning of DMC3 he only accepted his human side) and what allowed him to defeat Vergil at the end because the latter only accepted his demonic heritage. It's like Nero in DMC4 who only thought he was human at the beginning and didn't accept his demonic side, which changed when he got Yamato.

Like my first post, this kinda sounds like you either forgot or didn't play the game.

Dante is learning about humanity, those human feelings that he didn't care about nor the meaning of them. He literally tells both Lady and Vergil how he now knows what is correct and what he has to do and thus he follows the steps of his father doing what is right for humanity, for those weaker than him. Dante's Awakening is such a masterpiece in story telling because it has a lot of plot points that all culminate on what makes Dante such a loveable character.

"This whole business started with my father sealing the entrance between the two worlds. And now my brother's trying to break that spell and turn everything into demonville.
Quite frankly at first I didn't give a damn. But because of you, I know what's important now. I know what I need to do
Trust me, I'll make things right for you. That's what my soul is telling me to do"
- Dante to Lady


"What are you gonna do with all that power, huh? No matter how hard you try, you're never gonna be like father.
We are the Sons of Sparda. Within each of us flows his blood, but more importantly, his soul!
And now my soul is saying it wants to stop you!
...
I have to stop you, even if that means killing you."
-Dante to Vergil

God, such an amazing game...

Anyways, this game isn't just about Dante accepting he is a demon or that his father was a demon, its also about Dante learning about humanity, the value of human emotions and understanding what his father Sparda did. Dante, just like Sparda, awoke to justice here. Him explicitly telling Vergil that he will never be like their father isn't because of power but because Vergil is in a quest that values power over everything instead of heart and justice.

BTW, I don't think I need to point out the obvious but the Sons of Sparda are parallels of Sparda himself and Mundus. One follows justice and humanity as their main goal while the other selfishly wants absolute power.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Against a heavily exhausted Dante though. We literally see him struggling to walk properly right before Nero hits him.

It has nothing to do with durability. Whether you're exhausted or not, someone will make you bleed in one hit if they have the strength to do so.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

"When the emotion of caring for others explodes and turns into anger, the human spirit can display remarkable strength.
This energy, which may be considered the source of demonic power, is only used at half its potential by demons who don't know positive emotions...
That's why Mundus was defeated by Sparda
My father, having felt the warmth of human hears, woke up to justice and he gained a power that demons didn't naturally have: the power to protect others"


Let's not twist the context of these scans, shall we? Kaitai Shinsho explicitly tells you that Sparda gained a "human heart" and thus was able to use whatever bs power comes from having "human emotions".

Dante explicitly says that this power-up comes from the anger of seeing people you love in danger of dying or being killed:

"When the emotion of caring for others explodes and turns into anger, the human spirit can display remarkable strength."

It's absolutely not about realizing "Evil is bad" and having redemption, it's literally about having a shonen-style power-up and going into god mode.
What Dante said above is literally what's happening here and here. It's blatant and it corresponds perfectly to what Dante describes in the Kaitai Shinsho, especially with Nero where it's even more explicit:

I couldn't protect Credo. To this day, I hate myself for not having enough strength. But this time is different. I swear! I'M NOT LETTING YOU DIE!

And after that he got a power up and his arm grew back.

Both Dante and Nero already know about "the human heart", both of them have one (metaphorically, literally, doesn't matter) they already are "awoken to Justice". Nero tells Sanctus that Sparda had a heart and that's why he had power further showing he know about this and is there too.

Dante and Nero have naturally had love/compassion/empathy and a sense of justice since they were born because they are part human. Sparda received this from the moment he wanted to save humans and not before because he is a pure demon.

Which has been retconed to hell and back, but let's ignore that and say it still holds weight in todays world, Dante being weaker shouldn't matter because Mundus is ******* dying and weakened to the highest degree. If he had achieved Sparda levels of power he would have easily defeated a WEAKENED AND DYING Mundus quite easily.

This is absolutely not a reliable argument because it is based on a retconned scene.

Nope, Abigail was just a strong demon that didn't even register in Dante's knowledge until Sid told him about it. Abigail never was a contender for the throne, is never regarded in the same level as Argosax or Mundus and it has no feats beyonda vague "power to rival a demon king" statement. Taken at face value it ranges anywhere from Pluto (the weakest of them all) to sealed Mundus or Argosax the Chaos to full power Mundus and The Despair Embodied.

The simple fact that it was summoned and controlled by Allan Lowell tells me it didn't happen when Mundus and Argosax were having a war over the demon world, also the fact that neither Mundus or Argosax were threatened by other demons except themselves and Sparda is quite telling

It doesn't matter what Abigail's true level is because Dante explicitly says that all the "so-called" powerful demons and demon kings were disappointing to him. He explicitly makes it clear that to him they are all frauds, regardless of whether a statement that says X demons have the level of Y demon is true or not.

- They say this to me every day. Strong demon, cruel demon ... the king of demons ... but, you know, they were not so strong, sheer disappointment. Naturally, Dante undertook any work related to demons. His calling is this. But often there was nothing to do there besides a slash or two. From time to time, chasing another otherworldly trifle, Dante wondered if he would become a termite fighter - all the same, every single day tramples all trash. Neither good nor pleasure. It's like chewing gum. But Dante could not allow this otherworldly trifle to do in the world of people everything that she wanted, which is why he hunted them. But still, when he heard something about the “strong” and “cruel demon”, he wanted to meet someone who would justify such big words. But Dante always easily dealt with the demons and then walked away disappointed. - Page 209 210

You literally pointed 4 examples of such thing, there is also Beowulf, Urizen who he fought for over 24 hours while said demon was constantly getting pumped full of demonic steroids and the dozens of black knights that came after Gilver.

Gilver and Vergil are obviously not included in this statement by Dante, and neither is Chen because he is basically a mad scientist, not a powerful demon he was told to go kill. I didn't include Urizen because it was after this statement, and it's technically Vergil.

It's not exactly contradictory when you literally fly swat said enemy after a 20 minute power nap

I think being beaten and literally crucified is ridiculously contradictory.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Like my first post, this kinda sounds like you either forgot or didn't play the game.

Dante is learning about humanity, those human feelings that he didn't care about nor the meaning of them. He literally tells both Lady and Vergil how he now knows what is correct and what he has to do and thus he follows the steps of his father doing what is right for humanity, for those weaker than him. Dante's Awakening is such a masterpiece in story telling because it has a lot of plot points that all culminate on what makes Dante such a loveable character.

"This whole business started with my father sealing the entrance between the two worlds. And now my brother's trying to break that spell and turn everything into demonville.
Quite frankly at first I didn't give a damn. But because of you, I know what's important now. I know what I need to do
Trust me, I'll make things right for you. That's what my soul is telling me to do"
- Dante to Lady


"What are you gonna do with all that power, huh? No matter how hard you try, you're never gonna be like father.
We are the Sons of Sparda. Within each of us flows his blood, but more importantly, his soul!
And now my soul is saying it wants to stop you!
...
I have to stop you, even if that means killing you."
-Dante to Vergil

God, such an amazing game...

Anyways, this game isn't just about Dante accepting he is a demon or that his father was a demon, its also about Dante learning about humanity, the value of human emotions and understanding what his father Sparda did. Dante, just like Sparda, awoke to justice here. Him explicitly telling Vergil that he will never be like their father isn't because of power but because Vergil is in a quest that values power over everything instead of heart and justice.

BTW, I don't think I need to point out the obvious but the Sons of Sparda are parallels of Sparda himself and Mundus. One follows justice and humanity as their main goal while the other selfishly wants absolute power.

Dante was already hunting demons before the game started and went to open Devil May Cry, and he went to take care of the mess made by his brother from the beginning of the game so he clearly wanted to stop the demons. His discussion with Lady only means that he didn't care about family matters at first, because Dante and Lady have a discussion about family before that, not about justice and saving people. Dante already knows about humanity because he is human himself and he has already clearly shown love before DMC3. From his first interaction with Vergil in the game he denies having a father, it is only after this boss fight that he gradually accepts his father and therefore his demonic side.

This is again similar to Nero in DMC4 because the latter did not know at all that he was a demon and when other demons told him that he was one too when seeing his devil bringer Nero did not accept it. It was only after his interaction with Agnus and after having Yamato that Nero accepted his demonic side. Dante also ended up accepting it after being impaled by Rebellion.

This is the duality between Dante who only accepted his human side and Vergil only his demonic side, and Vergil who ended up losing to Dante in both DMC3 and 1 because he only accepted his demonic side while Dante completely accepted both sides.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

It's absolutely not about "Evil is bad" and having redemption, it's literally about having a shonen-style power-up and going into god mode.
What Dante said above is literally what's happening here and here. It's blatant and it corresponds perfectly to what Dante describes in the Kaitai Shinsho, especially with Nero where it's even more explicit:

And after that he got a power up and his arm grew back.

This further explains why I disagree even more with Nero still being considered weaker than Dante and Vergil because it would mean that Nero still doesn't have enough strength to stop them and that he only had the chance to do it because they were tired. A super important scene in Nero's character development is thrown out the window and becomes meaningless just because of one in-game animation

 

[Thehunter077]

It has nothing to do with durability. Whether you're exhausted or not,

Let's not ignore Jester is able stomp Dante in the face because he was wounded and weak, while the same demon admit he wouldn't be doing that to either of them in prime condition.

Or weakened Mundus who wait either twins to weakened condition, so he could beat them. Either twins in their prime, weakened Mundus would get absolutely folded if he try to fight Dante or Vergil if they were at peak, the same demon who even in that state is still stronger than all his generals and demons.

So yeah, exhausted in DMC does play apart for certain characters.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Let's not ignore Jester is able stomp Dante in the face because he was wounded and weak, while the same demon admit he wouldn't be doing that either of them in prime condition.

Or weakened Mundus who wait either twins to weakened condition, so he could beat them. Either twins in their prime, weakened Mundus would get absolutely folded if he try to fight Dante or Vergil if they were at peak, the same demon who even in that state is still stronger than all his generals and demons.

So yeah, exhausted in DMC does play apart for certain characters.

Fair point.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

So yeah, exhausted in DMC does play apart for certain characters.

That goes for about any series, if you are exhausted from other battles beforehand, some characters may get a better chance on you

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

That goes for about any series, if you are exhausted from other battles beforehand, some characters may get a better chance on you

Not about durability. A Planet level character wouldn't be able to make a Multi Galaxy character bleed even if the latter was tired after a long fight.

 

[Random-Helper323]

It has nothing to do with durability. Whether you're exhausted or not, someone will make you bleed in one hit if they have the strength to do so.

Arkham could only damage Dante and Vergil because they were weakened, and he even knocked Vergil unconscious. Dante was similarly weakened when Nero punched him. Please stop trying to scrap the entire verse's canon and power system just to fit your headcanon.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Arkham could only damage Dante and Vergil because they were weakened, and he even knocked Vergil unconscious. Dante was similarly weakened when Nero punched him. Please stop trying to scrap the entire verse's canon and power system just to fit your headcanon.

About the durability yeah I was wrong, but that doesn't change the fact that it's the "Nero who is still inferior to Dante and Vergil" take that screws up the entire character development of Nero as explained above...

 

[Random-Helper323]

About the durability yeah I was wrong, but that doesn't change the fact that it's the "Nero who is still inferior to Dante and Vergil" take that screws up the entire character development of Nero as explained above...

No, it doesn't. It just clashes with your headcanon. It fits nicely with what we actually see.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

No, it doesn't. It just clashes with your headcanon. It fits nicely with what we actually see.

It's not headcanon, just basic storytelling comprehension.

Nero still being inferior to Dante and Vergil means that Nero's monologue just before getting his power up is meaningless because he still doesn't have enough strength to save his family and those they love (because according to you if Dante and Vergil weren't tired they would have stomp Nero), something he's been trying to have since DMC4.

A character development since DMC4 completely ruined because even after the most important moment of the character (where he even thinks back to the death of Credo that he could not save) his power up did not serve to make him more powerful than the two people that he wants to save and he was only lucky that both were tired according to you...

 

[BlackDarkness679]

Nero would still be able to defeat demon lord level characters from the sheer fact they arent meaning anything to Dante and Vergil levels of power they have nowadays, especially since Dante surpassed them along Sparda way longer ago

He can protect his family and the humans by himself, you think Dante would leave him without knowing his capability? Especially after the ***** slap and fighting Vergil? Granted as already said, they werent in top shape, but he was still was capable to contend somewhat to them, he proved himself capable

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Nero would still be able to defeat demon lord level characters from the sheer fact they arent meaning anything to Dante and Vergil levels of power they have nowadays, especially since Dante surpassed them along Sparda way longer ago

Nero was trying to fight Dante and Vergil, not demon lords. According to what is currently accepted in scaling, if Nero had come much earlier he would have been beaten by the twins and thus the whole scene with the power up and the monologue would have been pointless and meaningless.

 

[RedReaper616]

Nero was trying to fight Dante and Vergil, not demon lords. According to what is currently accepted in scaling, if Nero had come much earlier he would have been beaten by the twins and thus the whole scene with the power up and the monologue would have been pointless and meaningless.

I don’t see how. It’s not uncommon for characters to get a big power up and still only win to circumstances because the foe was too great.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

I don’t see how. It’s not uncommon for characters to get a big power up and still only win to circumstances because the foe was too great.

In Nero's case it was his main goal since DMC4 and it still makes more meaningless and pointless his monologue and power up scene which is supposed to be the climax of his character development.

 

[Random-Helper323]

In Nero's case it was his main goal since DMC4 and it still makes more meaningless and pointless his monologue and power up scene which is supposed to be the climax of his character development.

His goal was to stop them killing each other, not surpass them. By this whole logic of "the power up is pointless unless they're stronger than everyone else", Gohan's power boost against Cell was meaningless because Cell was stronger and he needed help from Goku and Vegeta to win.

Nero did succeed in his goal of seperating them and stopping their fight, but prior to his boost they would have been too strong even while exhausted. It was also why Dante was confident Nero could handle any other demon that came through in their absence, allowing them to do their weird form of therapy. So his boost was not pointless.

Again, you need more proof than "this feels right to me" to say a character surpassed two people who've always been stronger than himself, especially when his fight against a badly exhausted Vergil was closer than Vergil's against a less exhausted Dante. The actual fights actually clash with this perception of yours, which is all just an assumption about the author's intentions when all is said and done.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

His goal was to stop them killing each other, not surpass them. By this whole logic of "the power up is pointless unless they're stronger than everyone else", Gohan's power boost against Cell was meaningless because Cell was stronger and he needed help from Goku and Vegeta to win.

Nero did succeed in his goal of seperating them and stopping their fight, but prior to his boost they would have been too strong even while exhausted.

Again, you need more proof than "this feels right to me" to say a character surpassed two people who've always been stronger than himself, especially when his fight against a badly exhausted Vergil was closer than Vergil's against a less exhausted Dante. The actual fights actually clash with this perception of yours, which is all just an assumption about the author's intentions when all is said and done.

His goal was to stop them, yes, but for that you need to have enough strength. Since DMC4, Nero said that he wants to have enough strength to be able to save those he cares for. Being more powerful is part of his character development.

If he had arrived much earlier, well, according to you, he would not have succeeded at all in stopping Dante and Vergil and therefore all the character development and climax monologue would have literally been for nothing. You put a single in-game interaction of a boss fight above the narrative and the lore, which is insane.

Gohan's case is absolutely not comparable because he does not have the same character development and goal as Nero. Nero's power up is really important because it's what he's been looking for since the character was introduced.

The developers' goal in the Nero vs Vergil interaction in the boss fight was probably just to make it look cool, but you take it literally while ignoring the context and narrative.

 

[RedReaper616]

The developers' goal in the Nero vs Vergil interaction in the boss fight was probably just to make it look cool, but you take it literally while ignoring the context and narrative.

Comtext…which indicates Vergil was nerfed.
The actual display in the fight…which indicates Vergil maintained a level of control over the fight Nero had to overcome with drive and grit because he would outright lose before saying “Oh Hell no!” and brashly stabbing back.
Or the scene after where Dante easily leaves a bruise on Nero.

You’re legit going on vibes right now, not anything objective.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

Yare yare