Destroying Nasuverse Earth is only 5-B, Moon Cell is only 4-B.

[DaReaperMan]

He seems not interested

Anyway this thread is pointless at this point, so a closure is necessary

Then why comment in the first place?

I have a feeling this charade will go on for awhile longer and have the OP resorting to stonewalling. So after the next two argument posts are answered I believe this can be closed because this ain't going anywhere.

 

[Estephano4243]

Still doesn't mean the Earth was blown up, something proven by the planet existing still

Said proof of planet existing is Chaldea being intact from a time axis not included in the 3000 years of incineration.

Or, maybe, just maybe, higher d things can be "affected by time" to make fictional stories work. Its also explicitly not affected by time as in our timelines btw, its disconnected from time which is why Merlin's able to watch and interact with us in different points in time than where he should be timeline wise

I know you weren't the one who said it but I was countering someone's argument regarding time passing on Avalon. Also Avalon still has nothing that actually places it 6D as per verse cosmology. What characteristics does Avalon have that suggests it is above Imaginary Number Space? And even if I conceded on the notion that Avalon is only 4D because of Merlin's capabilities as a clairvoyant, I am still inclined to believe that it is only 4D, even if Saber Artoria can be summoned on other parallel worlds, all it really takes to affect other space-time continuums is to be a space-time continuum.

1. Okay, and? Even assuming it was the attack's solar winds this suddenly means it wasn't her full output authority despite it being said it was? This remark makes no sense.
2. There was another one that mentioned him punching a hole through the planet iirc, which is where the rating even comes from to begin with. And he didn't nuke Earth at every moment for 3000 years, he burned human history, humans, on the surface, which he wiped. Why would blowing up the planet get him energy when we're told its only the burning of history, he had no reason to just pop the planet from the start, and he didn't

1. Cuz same solar winds are literally blocked by Mash's shield without even having to call Lord Camelot's name, It is literally vaporized by natural heat. Also quite frankly this isn't the first time Ether was vaporized by heat, Excalibur was literally able to vaporize the Grail's mud.
2. Except he did nuke Earth from every moment of 3000 years, Da Vinci straight up tells us it is destroyed which is why she is surprised that Avalon was still intact despite it.

Yes I'm telling you that's incorrect when the passage then goes on to mention its because they aren't recorded. Your assumption of "recording undoes the strengthening" makes 0 sense because that means the mooncell could just repeatedly record Sefar until she goes away or is nerfed enough to be easily killed, rather than having to seal her in the Zero Dark. It's much easier to assume, as the text basically outright says, them not being recorded allows them to shift and being recorded gets rid of that ability, because its a privlege and normally against the mooncell's rules

Except the idea of strengthening one's existence is used for the idea of sliding parallel worlds, not overall stats. If the Moon Cell were to record Sefar for as much times as it wants all it will do is prevent Sefar from sliding parallel worlds but she will still remain as strong in terms of stats. Also you're essentially telling me that an entire sentence from the passage is incorrect...

It does mean that though lol. They're explicitly not in the same time axis as the rest of the timeline, and Chaldea is also not in the same time axis as the rest of the timeline or the singularities. Double barrier crossing action.
The explanation you gave here doesn't explain at all why being in a different time axis means its somehow the same exact spacetime either, you just explained Goetia's plan to accumulate energy from human history to rewind time

They're not in the same time axis that falls under that range of that 3000 years that got decimated but they are in the same spatial axis. Rayshifting essentially just allows them to move through that distorted time axis whilst still in the same spatial axis. They are not actually going through the walls of their space-time continuum. Solomon's Temple is straight up outside of their space-time continuum and it is noted that it is risky to Rayshift there which is why they're only able to do so through the entrance of the singularity unlike in the other singularities where they can Rayshift in and out at any point of the singularity.

No, it means that it has the simulations, and the light in the core that Twice mentioned is the results, I'm almost convinced you're purposely misreading whats being said at this point. Nothing you've said says that legit parallel space times aren't inside the mooncell without grossly misinterpreting this specific quote, disregarding the showings of them being there, etc

What showings of them being there? Or are you referring to Archimedes sliding which is basically just rayshifting which suggests he doesn't traverse parallel worlds because they exist inside the Moon Cell but rather because the Moon Cell is capable of rayshifting?

No, Twice explicitly wanted to end the outside world too, because it was a dead end and he hated jt. He was just going to end all the parallel worlds, ours and the mooncells as well, which we know is what would happen as per your own mats which say it affects the outside too.

What twice wanted was human extinction... and that whole "end all parallel worlds" thing is again because the Moon Cell was shutting down which means said "parallel worlds" that are ending are essentially just its simulations which are again only in form of light.

Universe was originally Sekai there, World. The World is an overarching term in Nasu, which includes things like Gaia, Alaya, the entire multiverse, etc. Its not supposed to mean the universe has multiple timelines in it, it means The World, has multiple space times.

Them saying thats what Fate/EX means by parallel worlds means nothing when its the exact same rules across other works too, and Nasu straight up has a wog statement saying that rules work the same across entries. They aren't saying "this is how it works only in Fate/EX" so I'm not sure why you assume that. In fact, the mooncell having this weird version where everything is one universe makes even less sense when you look at the mats and statements which tell us that the Mooncell's processes are copied from the World's after it observed them.

Sekai can mean so many things but when the official material book uses that one definition that contradicts your notion all of a sudden it is disregarded.

You still don't understand what I am saying... Yes I know that the concept of parallel world in Fate applies to everything Fate, what I am telling you is that when the characters of Fate/EX says -> "parallel worlds" it is meant to be taken as merely branching timelines. They wouldn't put something as significant as "This is how the concept of parallel worlds operate in the Fate/EX series" if it didn't mean anything. If we take into account how parallel worlds function in Fate as a whole, the logical conclusion is that what they meant by, "This is how the concept of parallel worlds operate in the Fate/EX series" is simply that the characters uses the term parallel worlds in that notion.

Backtracking yikes
So now he's just going through different branches of a single timeline, and no statements besides Fate/EX ones (and only certain ones at that) matter because no other rules apply to these worlds, I'll just have to point you to my above questionings and arguments against this logic

Again, I'm not saying that no other rules apply to Fate/EX, what I am saying is that when characters of Fate/EX use the term "parallel worlds" it is meant to be taken under the notion of branching timelines despite not actually being parallel worlds as per overall Fate rules.

Destroy the world doesn't always mean popped the planet, in fact it rarely means that. Also, this is Da Vinci, miss "no Noble Phantasm could destroy the planet"

Why on earth would she say that if she just saw one do that very thing

Yes, statements that are substantiated by the series by repeated explanations of higher dimensions should be taken at face value, and an interpretation of a statement, that is outright contradicted by literally everything, should not be taken as true

Considering that for anyone who isn't aware of it, the incineration of humanity just happened suddenly for reasons unknown, no she did not witness a Noble Phantasm destroy the planet, she just witnessed the planet get nuked, period.

"substantiated by the series by repeated explanations of higher dimensions" You're really saying that despite literally only having one statement for each claim... both of which are refuted by: a) How Spiritrons by nature are incapable of breaking through space-time walls and with a strengthened existence the most they can do is traverse through time and branching timelines, b) Avalon has no real showings of being above a known 5D space (Imaginary Number Space).

"an interpretation of a statement, that is outright contradicted by literally everything" Said contradictions involve: a) Earth still exists because Chaldea still exists which you and multiple people graciously proved is protected by being in a different time axis which means the idea to that notion is still open, b) Statement from Da Vinci who said "no Noble Phantasm can destroy the planet" thinking this actually contradicts her world getting destroyed statement when it doesn't given she has no idea what even caused the planet getting nuked.

Also it did pop the planet... hence why she is puzzled by the fact Avalon is still intact despite the world getting nuked.

 

[TrueKingOfHeroes]

I know you weren't the one who said it but I was countering someone's argument regarding time passing on Avalon. Also Avalon still has nothing that actually places it 6D as per verse cosmology. What characteristics does Avalon have that suggests it is above Imaginary Number Space? And even if I conceded on the notion that Avalon is only 4D because of Merlin's capabilities as a clairvoyant, I am still inclined to believe that it is only 4D, even if Saber Artoria can be summoned on other parallel worlds, all it really takes to affect other space-time continuums is to be a space-time continuum.

Lmao, you say that avalon is 4D which when it is blatantly stated 6D? It doesn't make sense.

Avalon is Avalon and Clairvoyance is Clairvoyance, both are not related at all.

What twice wanted was human extinction... and that whole "end all parallel worlds" thing is again because the Moon Cell was shutting down which means said "parallel worlds" that are ending are essentially just its simulations which are again only in form of light.

Mooncell can affect reality tho.

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

Said proof of planet existing is Chaldea being intact from a time axis not included in the 3000 years of incineration.

I hope you realize Chaldeas, which represents the state of the planet via using its Soul, didn't collapse, it just started burning brightly. It was only surface wiped.

I know you weren't the one who said it but I was countering someone's argument regarding time passing on Avalon. Also Avalon still has nothing that actually places it 6D as per verse cosmology. What characteristics does Avalon have that suggests it is above Imaginary Number Space? And even if I conceded on the notion that Avalon is only 4D because of Merlin's capabilities as a clairvoyant, I am still inclined to believe that it is only 4D, even if Saber Artoria can be summoned on other parallel worlds, all it really takes to affect other space-time continuums is to be a space-time continuum.

I suspect you don't really know how higher dimensions work. Higher dimensions in Nasu are not only spatial, they are temporal as well, and Avalon:

Exists outside the time axis.

Is straight up said to block all interference up to the 6th dimension.

Imaginary Number Space is also implied to not even just be 4-D too anyway, considering it's implied that Outer Gods can manifest their true forms there, just that it is always going to be at least 4-D.

1. Cuz same solar winds are literally blocked by Mash's shield without even having to call Lord Camelot's name, It is literally vaporized by natural heat. Also quite frankly this isn't the first time Ether was vaporized by heat, Excalibur was literally able to vaporize the Grail's mud.
2. Except he did nuke Earth from every moment of 3000 years, Da Vinci straight up tells us it is destroyed which is why she is surprised that Avalon was still intact despite it.

1. The solar winds are not directed at Mash and the rest, and Quetz literally said they should step back or get vaporized. I would also like to mention that not 2 sections before this it was stated that you would need to match AAS to match Chaos Tide, so the fact that you insist this is just heat is funny. I can't believe magical heat can destroy magic energy.
2. Please read your own scans, Da Vinci was never surprised Avalon was intact. The world being destroyed doesn't mean the planet has to be crumbled into nothing, as we already know from Chaldeas, its surface was burnt. AAS in Solomon's fight is a concentrated attack with all of his bands of light, and that is said to be enough to pierce the planet.

Except the idea of strengthening one's existence is used for the idea of sliding parallel worlds, not overall stats. If the Moon Cell were to record Sefar for as much times as it wants all it will do is prevent Sefar from sliding parallel worlds but she will still remain as strong in terms of stats. Also you're essentially telling me that an entire sentence from the passage is incorrect

Regardless of this or that, it still stands that your point doesn't mean much, as Spiritrons being fundamentally unable to cross space-time is false, as shown by your own scan (in which spiritrons are what allows Archimedes to slide) and Rayshifting.

They're not in the same time axis that falls under that range of that 3000 years that got decimated but they are in the same spatial axis. Rayshifting essentially just allows them to move through that distorted time axis whilst still in the same spatial axis. They are not actually going through the walls of their space-time continuum. Solomon's Temple is straight up outside of their space-time continuum and it is noted that it is risky to Rayshift there which is why they're only able to do so through the entrance of the singularity unlike in the other singularities where they can Rayshift in and out at any point of the singularity.

A lot of this is just straight up wrong seeing as Rayshifting lets you move not only through time, but also space. Moving to Ars Nova was risky because it was the size of an atom in location with a different concept of space-time entirely, which actually proves our point even more since spiritrons are crossing the barrier of space-time.

This also ignores how Rayshifting is still called a higher dimensional form of movement.

Considering that for anyone who isn't aware of it, the incineration of humanity just happened suddenly for reasons unknown, no she did not witness a Noble Phantasm destroy the planet, she just witnessed the planet get nuked, period.

"substantiated by the series by repeated explanations of higher dimensions" You're really saying that despite literally only having one statement for each claim... both of which are refuted by: a) How Spiritrons by nature are incapable of breaking through space-time walls and with a strengthened existence the most they can do is traverse through time and branching timelines, b) Avalon has no real showings of being above a known 5D space (Imaginary Number Space).

"an interpretation of a statement, that is outright contradicted by literally everything" Said contradictions involve: a) Earth still exists because Chaldea still exists which you and multiple people graciously proved is protected by being in a different time axis which means the idea to that notion is still open, b) Statement from Da Vinci who said "no Noble Phantasm can destroy the planet" thinking this actually contradicts her world getting destroyed statement when it doesn't given she has no idea what even caused the planet getting nuked.

Also it did pop the planet... hence why she is puzzled by the fact Avalon is still intact despite the world getting nuked.

Except she would know the planet wasn't popped. Because, you know, Chaldeas.

This entire argument falls flat once you, again, realize that Da Vinci was never surprised Merlin was still alive. In fact, both Romani and Da Vinci expected as much, and Da Vinci herself already knew before hand.

There's also, again, the fact that nowhere is it said that spiritrons by definition can't cross space-time, and that Avalon is stated to be a 6-D location lol.

This thread ignores the very existence of Textures in the planet (and how they contained the cosmology of all the myths together and now contain our understanding of an infinite universe), it ignores several statements that place higher dimensions where they are, and ignores the cosmology of the World itself.

I really don't want to drag this too long considering every knowledgeble member disagrees with this on foundation alone.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

I really don't want to drag this too long considering every knowledgeble member disagrees with this on foundation alone.

So a closure?

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

I'll keep it open a bit more but if this keeps dragging on with no change in agreement then I'll have to.

 

[Paul_Frank]

Said proof of planet existing is Chaldea being intact from a time axis not included in the 3000 years of incineration.

Or the planet still existing. The repeated explanations that he only burned humanity or the surface, etc. In fact, just to help drive this home, I'm just going to post a few screenshots from Solomon

That's what scorched the entire Earth, ended the human race and incinerated humanity

It is true that these bands of light could burn the outer layer of this planet

But how would I benefit from that? Why do you think I would have gone through the trouble of incinerating you all?

Like, it's pretty evident he just surface wiped for the human history

I know you weren't the one who said it but I was countering someone's argument regarding time passing on Avalon. Also Avalon still has nothing that actually places it 6D as per verse cosmology. What characteristics does Avalon have that suggests it is above Imaginary Number Space? And even if I conceded on the notion that Avalon is only 4D because of Merlin's capabilities as a clairvoyant, I am still inclined to believe that it is only 4D, even if Saber Artoria can be summoned on other parallel worlds, all it really takes to affect other space-time continuums is to be a space-time continuum.

The statement that it shuts out all interference up to the 6th dimension, because of self bfring to that location. The fact its above true magic (Zelretch in particular being 5d bare minimum, and Aoko being able to just put herself outside of the time axis too), and something that no one can just brute force their way into, even the crowd of 4/5d people (gods being beings that explicitly transcend time and are higher dimensional).

Not sure what the "it's 4d because space time contimuums can affect eachother" is for, but that's some additional stuff for it being 6d

1. Cuz same solar winds are literally blocked by Mash's shield without even having to call Lord Camelot's name, It is literally vaporized by natural heat. Also quite frankly this isn't the first time Ether was vaporized by heat, Excalibur was literally able to vaporize the Grail's mud.

"Natural heat". I'm gonna stop you right there, nothing about Piedra Del Sol is natural, the solar winds are what she used it to call, that's the authority use there. Mash being able to block it means nothing, her shield is much more heat resistant than like, anyone there, especially when we know that Quetz was decently far away from them before using it.

We see that this is specifically a Mash's shield thing given the response from Ishtar the minute Quetz starts (and as Crimson said, she warns them in advanced) and manages to vaporize a portion of the tides. In any case, I'm not sure why this is really even being argued, an authority beating out a portion of the chaos tides has no bearing on whether Arcueid's ability is legitimate or not

2. Except he did nuke Earth from every moment of 3000 years, Da Vinci straight up tells us it is destroyed which is why she is surprised that Avalon was still intact despite it.

Refer to the quotes I posted above

Except the idea of strengthening one's existence is used for the idea of sliding parallel worlds, not overall stats. If the Moon Cell were to record Sefar for as much times as it wants all it will do is prevent Sefar from sliding parallel worlds but she will still remain as strong in terms of stats. Also you're essentially telling me that an entire sentence from the passage is incorrect...

The leaps in logic necessary to make the interpretation "its purely a strength issue" work are pretty big. If, as you said, recording just removes the umbral cells that led to their strengthening, then recording Sefar would also remove her cells yeah, and with it her strength should go, not just amps.

But this is clearly not the case, and illogical. What I'm saying isn't that the text is lying, but that its context is pretty clear. Every mention of their sliding comes with the mentions of the fact that it's normally impossible, and will be impossible again when they're recorded, and that the only reason they have this administrator privilege/authority is because they were corrupted, and are not recorded. It's pretty evident that it's telling you it's not just strength, because otherwise recording would do nothing as recording can do nothing to the umbral star. Such an interpretation is backed by FGO's rayshifting being possible.

Not to mention, spiritons being unable to be 4d makes no sense when we're also told that the soul is higher dimensional, meaning its bare minimum, 4d.

They're not in the same time axis that falls under that range of that 3000 years that got decimated but they are in the same spatial axis.

It's explicitly

Becoming spiritons and then traveling through space-time. However even if it was just time, the scan you're trying to use as proof for spiritons being unable to be 4d specifically says that they can't normally travel backwards in time, so even if it was the same spatial axis, this alone disproves traveling through time being related to strength as well, providing yet further evidence that its a rules thing.

What showings of them being there? Or are you referring to Archimedes sliding which is basically just rayshifting which suggests he doesn't traverse parallel worlds because they exist inside the Moon Cell but rather because the Moon Cell is capable of rayshifting?

Last Encore ending their operation, again, the light stored is the records, finished worlds' results, not the currently operating simulations, which are what the worlds are. Archimedes sliding does prove it, I'm not sure what your last sentence means there unless you're saying that parallel worlds outright aren't in the mooncell, so he's shifting to other worlds outside of the mooncell and just entering it again, which umm, doesn't make sense.

What twice wanted was human extinction... and that whole "end all parallel worlds" thing is again because the Moon Cell was shutting down which means said "parallel worlds" that are ending are essentially just its simulations which are again only in form of light.

I've explained the light thing like 4 times now so I will do it once more and ignore it from this point on. As per your own scan, what is stored as light is the results of the worlds, or as we are told in other parts of Extra, the records, that's the so called Universe of Records people tend to mention all the time. The core stores as light, the ending of all the worlds it runs, specifically the end and not the actual worlds are stored like this, while the actual worlds just exist inside the mooncell.

For proof of this, look no further than what's said as he's about to prune them

Phenomenon Selection Tree. Pruning Mechanism. Chakravartin has completed the preparations for the clearing. All parallel universes will cease operation. In 1200 seconds, the discontinuation of all possibilities will begin.

Cease operation, they're currently operating, running, they exist in a form that can run. They aren't just the results that are stored as light which Twice mentioned in Extra. These are outright parallel universes being said to currently be operating.

Sekai can mean so many things but when the official material book uses that one definition that contradicts your notion all of a sudden it is disregarded.

More like when they translate it as universe, and that results in an illogical situation such as one Universe having numerous parallel worlds, it's usually disregarded as that doesn't work. Unless you want to say each universe contains multiple timelines, but you want to do neither, and instead say that mentioning universe disproves any evidence the parallel worlds are actually separate

You still don't understand what I am saying... Yes I know that the concept of parallel world in Fate applies to everything Fate, what I am telling you is that when the characters of Fate/EX says -> "parallel worlds" it is meant to be taken as merely branching timelines. They wouldn't put something as significant as "This is how the concept of parallel worlds operate in the Fate/EX series" if it didn't mean anything. If we take into account how parallel worlds function in Fate as a whole, the logical conclusion is that what they meant by, "This is how the concept of parallel worlds operate in the Fate/EX series" is simply that the characters uses the term parallel worlds in that notion.

A branching timeline is still a timeline though, and as stated this method of the workings for parallel worlds isn't exactly unique in Fate. In fact its explicitly not unique because the Moon Cell copies this method for parallel worlds from the outside World, as in, it explicitly uses the same method as the rest of the franchise, which is shown by them in fact, having the same rules.

Compiled Events is just the main branch, the proper history mentioned in other entries, and even in the explanations of QTLs in Extra/Extella. Trimmed events being the dead end worlds that are culled. With other explanations mentioning these worlds as timelines themselves.

Nothing here is unique, nothing here says all these parallel worlds are one space time except for interpreting the mention of the word universe in the English version to say "it's clearly all one space time but filled with parallel worlds" despite this making no sense with what parallel worlds are, or the events of certain entries

Considering that for anyone who isn't aware of it, the incineration of humanity just happened suddenly for reasons unknown, no she did not witness a Noble Phantasm destroy the planet, she just witnessed the planet get nuked, period.

"substantiated by the series by repeated explanations of higher dimensions" You're really saying that despite literally only having one statement for each claim... both of which are refuted by: a) How Spiritrons by nature are incapable of breaking through space-time walls and with a strengthened existence the most they can do is traverse through time and branching timelines, b) Avalon has no real showings of being above a known 5D space (Imaginary Number Space).

"an interpretation of a statement, that is outright contradicted by literally everything" Said contradictions involve: a) Earth still exists because Chaldea still exists which you and multiple people graciously proved is protected by being in a different time axis which means the idea to that notion is still open, b) Statement from Da Vinci who said "no Noble Phantasm can destroy the planet" thinking this actually contradicts her world getting destroyed statement when it doesn't given she has no idea what even caused the planet getting nuked.

Also it did pop the planet... hence why she is puzzled by the fact Avalon is still intact despite the world getting nuked.

Just refer to section 1 where I post screenshots showing he just surface wiped

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

So does everyone else. Got anything relevant to comment?

No I just wanted to say it.

 

[PsychoWarper]

No I just wanted to say it.

Fair enough I guess.

 

[LehenDuo]

"Natural heat". I'm gonna stop you right there, nothing about Piedra Del Sol is natural, the solar winds are what she used it to call, that's the authority use there. Mash being able to block it means nothing, her shield is much more heat resistant than like, anyone there, especially when we know that Quetz was decently far away from them before using it.

If it's the authority, it is natural... That's like, the definition of an Authority.

 

[PsychoWarper]

I think Paul more meant that it wasnt just normal everyday sun light that shines on Earth. It’s directly from the power and authority of a Chief Sun God.

 

[Estephano4243]

I had a long reply drafted that addesses Crimson and Paul's replies but I realized that we're not going to agree at all and quite frankly will just end up throwing the same points and become a battle of attrition.

On that note, @CrimsonStarFallen please do close the thread.

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

Thanks for realizing, man.