Destiny CRT - Guardians edition

[Sakamaki_Fuji]

This thread is to add some elements, which I think are missing, to these characters: Ikora Rey, Saint-14, Shin Malphur and Warlock (Destiny). As Guardians, each of them should have the following abilities and resistances:

ABILITIES​

• Data manipulation : Most, if not all, Guardians are able to decipher engrams (probably with their ghosts). Engrams are encoded matter :

''Dr. Willa Bray was the first person to successfully encode solid matter; this breakthrough led to the creation of engrams.'' - Clovis Bray (Organisation)​

''What is an engram ?'', you ask? Data freed from matter.' - Master Rahool

"The unique datastatic structure of relic crystals inspired Doctor Willa Bray to develop the first engram matter-encryption techniques during the Golden Age." - Ghost

Guardians can alter data by shooting at it or by using their Light:​

"Once connected, access to these networks is severely limited for the Eliksni Sacred Splicers, though Guardians, due to their unique relationship with the Light, are able to manifest corporeally within the network for short periods of time. They can then alter the data found therein with focused percussive energy—including gunfire—in a baffling scientific process the Cryptarchy does not yet fully understand." - The Splicer Gauntlet

• Causality Manipulation :

"Tug at the threads of causality"- Wild Hunt Gloves

"Come," the voice calls. "I am Nasya. You are not safe. Come with me."
"Not safe?"
"No. Of course she is not safe. Because there are factions among the Nine: one faction sent Xûr and Orin to study Guardians and the Light, to seek the secret of effect-without-cause and to protect the source of that secret, the last source, now that the Ahamkara are gone. Those five played at alchemy with the Cocytus gates, turning dark dust into energy and then into matter, but they could not unlock the secrets of our mad existence." - The Witch

"How does Light make you tougher? Bullets strike your armor and then decide they didn't." - Cosmic Wind

• Fate Manipulation :

''Guardians make their own fate. But what if the process by which they decide upon their own fate could be understood and manipulated?'' - act|choose|react

Spoiler: Spoilers

• Subjective Reality : It is implied that a weapon powered by the Light can end existence if the wielder will so:

"If you believe your weapon wants to end all existence, then so it will." - Bad Juju

Guardians can also use Ontology (It is a branch of philosophy that studies concepts such as existence, being, becoming, and reality.) to convince things they shouldn't exist :​

''Applied ontology is the art of convincing things they shouldn't exist.'' - Eclipse Maw VI

The Gorgon (in the Vault Of Glass) use Ontology to define what is and what is not :​

''Deep in the Vault of Glass, the fabric of reality bends to the will of the Vex. Warlocks speak in tones of awe of the Gorgons - creatures that seem to possess a dreaded, almost unimaginable strength: an ontological weapon. Like the Oracles and the Templar, the Gorgons reputedly possess the ability to define what is and is not real. Whatever they perceive becomes subject to erasure at their will.'' - The Gorgons

The Light describe itself as Ontological :​

"Once upon a time,* a gardener and a winnower lived** together in a garden.***

* It was once before a time, because time had not yet begun.
** We did not live. We existed as principles of ontological dynamics that emerged from mathematical structures, as bodiless and inevitable as the primes.
*** It was the field of possibility that prefigured existence." - Gardener and Winnower

Another character, Orin, describe the Light of the Guardians as an Ontological force able to conjure things into existence (at least, she implied it) :​

“As a Lightbearer, your very thoughts propel an ontological force. Should you wish it, your sheer will could conjure...“ - Orin(19:47)

Guardians can anchor things into existence :​

This weapon cannot exist in this timeline and will vanish without an anchor point to secure it in this reality. Create an anchor point by completing public events. - Steelfeather Repeater

• Self sustenance (?) : Guardians don't need to sleep :

"You will find the nightmares grow worse. Thankfully, you no longer have need of sleep." - Ego Talon Bond

• Non-Physical Interaction : Any guardian can kill and interact with the Taken who are non-existent and formless beings:

''You have been Taken.
The great fortress of your thoughts has been breached, your unity broken. The network around and within you lies ruptured. You are cut out from the fabric, a hole in the whole.
Observe this area of negative space, shaped like what once you were, and embrace a new possibility.'' - Seditious Mind

"Is this power blind? Just a natural energy Oryx discovered? I cannot believe it.
My Hidden tell me that the Taken shine with seething, negative light. As if the universe is curling up around them. As if they radiate some pathology that decays into our world as nothingness..." - The Taken

​

Spoiler: The Taken are formless beings

Guardians can kill/destroy Nightmares. They are described as made of chaos, negation, and the raw things found existing in spaces between thought and fear. :​

"The Nightmares appear to be extracted from our very psyche—violent manifestations that wreak havoc, tormenting us with our past trauma. They tease us with a life we once knew, prying into our minds and attacking our most vulnerable points. This assault on our emotions is aimed to weaken us and our sense of purpose." - Eris Morn

''The Daughters' lineage was death and destruction writ in terrible scars across the surface of existence, yet no hint of their father or their father's father called from the void. But the energies of the Pyramid were those of creation—not of life, per se, but something other. Chaos and negation and the raw things that existed in the spaces between thought and fear. These terrible workings were wholly unknowable and endlessly seductive.'' - Heretic

They can also interact with Datalattices which are encrypted data:​

Encrypted data inaccessible in an unknown hybrid state of matter-energy. Bring this to Failsafe in the Exodus Black on Nessus to discover its value. - Microphasic Datalattice

• Conceptual Manipulation (for their Ghosts) : Guardians can destroy and nullify the runes of the Hive which are conceptual in nature :

"Hive runes draw their power from a different dimension, where there’s no difference between a word and its meaning. When the Hive erode the barrier between our dimension and theirs, the rune for “death” brings literal death." - Ghost scan festering halls titan 3

• At least genius (?) level intelligence : According to the lore of the starfire protocol, the subconscious of a Guardian is comparable to that of a virtual computer:

''The Protocol is contained in the patterns on the robe that, if scanned at the molecular level, describe a Turing-compatible virtual computer and program that, when executed on said computer, calculates the entire Protocol, exactly as it was determined in the Precipice of Flame.
This is of little interest to most Guardians, who can subconsciously "load" the program simply by looking at the pattern.'' - Starfire Protocol

• Telepathy (for their Ghosts):

You see your Ghost clinging to it for dear life with bits of his shell.

"I thought you would never look back here!" Ghost shouts into your mind. "I've launched a battery of spectral scans off our position—what we're experiencing is real!"

• Creation :

For their Ghosts :​

''Suddenly, a smallish robot is floating beside the Warlock. The tinker had seen Ghosts before, but never this close. It speaks. "This is irrational. I'm capable of reproducing your Sparrow on command and in mint condition. Why pay this person to repair your old one? It increases the failure rate by 18% at minimum."

The tinker stares at the Ghost, his face reddening. He had worked day and night for two full weeks on this Sparrow, and the proceeds would keep his shop open for another three months. It was the biggest job he'd had in a year.'' - Firecrest

Guardians can make constructs out of The Light too. For example, the Golden Gun, the Void Bow, or the Solar Hammer, emotes, etc.​

• Hacking (for their Ghosts) :

"Variks: You will encounter many locks here. Variks offers you his keys. They are… old. [inhales] The teeth must fit this new lock.

Ghost: Do you really think your old access codes will work? Maybe there's another way.

Variks: There is no other way.

Ghost: All right. Just between you and me, I'm really tired of hacking security systems…" - Sabotaging Salvation

• Black Hole Creation (for void Light user) :

"Light is scarce in this place. But Quantis knows how to find it—how to feel for the un-ripples of the Void, to draw Light from the infinities between spaces. She knows how to roll black holes between her fingertips, and how to nock her bow with the inescapable gravities of the universe.
Soon Quantis will leave this place, return to the City, report her findings. See colors again. But that won't last long. She is a Nightstalker. Out here—balanced upon the infinitesimal knife's edge—is where she truly belongs." - Orpheus Rig

"The pull of the Void has attracted many Guardians with… unorthodox world views. It remains a uniquely perplexing manifestation of the Light," Ikora says, gazing at a swirl of violet particles rising from the palm of her hand.
"Perhaps this mystery is what enamors so many Lightbearers. Perhaps it is the unquenchable thirst with which the Void consumes our enemies."
She snaps her fingers, and the particles coalesce into a singularity that blinks out of existence.
"To seek the truth of the matter is to join venerated orders of Void-wielders: Nightstalkers; Voidwalkers; Sentinels. If this is your path, Guardian, walk it carefully." - Ikora Rey - Gazing Into The Abyss

• Teleportation (for their Ghosts) : Ghosts can transmat (teleport) their guardian in and out of their ship. They can also teleport things like weapons, sparrows, etc.

I requested that my Ghost attempt to contain and transmat the fragment for quarantine on my jumpship. He was unable to establish a Light link with the object, describing the fragment as "slippery" and "tiring" to try to catch hold of. - Fragment

Now for the more specific cases:
Warlock (Destiny), Ikora Rey and all those capable to use the Radiance should have Intangibility, Statistics Amplification and Resurrection :

"Open yourself to the Light. Glimpse, for a few rapturous moments, the truth beyond the powers you wield.
A Warlock in a state of Radiance threatens to slip beyond the bonds of the material, shrugging off physical harm, channeling a torrent of abilities. Some may learn to elevate nearby Guardians, gifting them with power. Others, entranced by the Ghosts' power to reach beyond death, may learn to pluck themselves out of nothingness like the phoenix of ancient myth." - Radiance

"The Warlock's Radiance Super makes his weapons more powerful for a time and can also have the effect of resurrecting Guardians after a fight." - WoG

Shin Malphur should have access to the Void (Quantum Manipulation, Space-Time Manipulation, Gravity Manipulation, Life-Absorption, Matter Manipulation (Macro-Quantum)) and Arc( Electricity Manipulation, Magnetism Manipulation) subclasses, he never used them in the lore, but accomplished guardians are able to use all three subclasses. Cayde-6, another hunter who is likely weaker than him, is capable of using all three. The same goes for Saint-14, as one of the strongest titan to ever live he should be able to use the solar subclass.

RESISTANCES :​

• Guardians fight each other every day in the crucible, so they should be able to resist their abilities.
• Physique manipulation and resistance to it? :

I drive my Sparrow at breakneck speed because it reminds me of my place in the universe. It reminds me of every force that acts on me, every "law" of motion I can or can't break. I'm most interested in the ones I can't break, honestly. Considering I am myself an aberration of the laws of physics, I rather like finding the edges of things. Not that I'm content to leave those edges as they are. I just get a sort of… thrill out of finding them. - Approaching Infinity

Ammonite aren't Guardians but their weapons were powered by the Light, so Guardians should obviously scale :​

We knew curiosity would draw you back, Auryx. In their desperation, the Ammonite have begun using paracausal weapons.
What are these? How do they work? Wouldn’t you like to know. Suffice to say that some powers in this universe are superordinate to mere material physics.
The source of these weapons is the Traveler, the Sky’s bait star. Their effect is subtle, but devastating. - XVI: The Sword Logic

• Corruption :

Taken passively corrupt and erase the world around them, but Guardians aren't affected.​

My Hidden tell me that the Taken shine with seething, negative light. As if the universe is curling up around them. As if they radiate some pathology that decays into our world as nothingness... - The Taken

• Power mimicry, Information Analysis and Clairvoyance :

Vex are unable to simulate or analyze the light of guardians.​

I don’t know where you have gone, but I can no longer send Ghosts out to find you. Some come back— with tales of your death or how you went seeking answers from the far reaches of space and time. That you found a way to explore the Vex gate networks. That you've made breakthrough after breakthrough as to their origins— theories that a Guardian could not be simulated, that the Traveler might be an ontoformer or a god-incubator, that the Vex had diverged into multiple groups in order to secure 'an end state for every possible configuration of reality'. - Osiris

​

Ghost: That Mind said one last thing as it died. It's afraid. Afraid of your Light- the one thing in this galaxy it can't simulate. Probably old news to Ikora, bit I'll ping it to the Vanguard. - Deep Conversation

 

[DaReaperMan]

I recommend calling Wokistan for this, but this seems fine at a glance

 

[Sakamaki_Fuji]

I recommend calling Wokistan for this, but this seems fine at a glance

Thanks, I'll do that

 

[QuasiYuri]

Looks good to me.

 

[WHYNAUT]

I have already come across a lot of this while preparing for future revisions, so I can say that Sakamaki has done his research. I would also like to make some additional propositions for powers and abilities that are not on Guardian profiles.

Spoiler: Response to the OP

''Dr. Willa Bray was the first person to successfully encode solid matter; this breakthrough led to the creation of engrams.'' - Clovis Bray (Organisation)

''What is an engram ?'', you ask? Data freed from matter.' - Master Rahool

"The unique datastatic structure of relic crystals inspired Doctor Willa Bray to develop the first engram matter-encryption techniques during the Golden Age." - Ghost

For the engrams, yes this is done with Ghosts, as shown here. It should also be Information Manipulation as it is often used on physical objects.

"Once connected, access to these networks is severely limited for the Eliksni Sacred Splicers, though Guardians, due to their unique relationship with the Light, are able to manifest corporeally within the network for short periods of time. They can then alter the data found therein with focused percussive energy—including gunfire—in a baffling scientific process the Cryptarchy does not yet fully understand." - The Splicer Gauntlet

That would be exclusive to Guardians while outside of Material Space. Since Vex Space is real in its own way, this would also fall under Information Manipulation.

"Tug at the threads of causality"- Wild Hunt Gloves

"Come," the voice calls. "I am Nasya. You are not safe. Come with me."
"Not safe?"
"No. Of course she is not safe. Because there are factions among the Nine: one faction sent Xûr and Orin to study Guardians and the Light, to seek the secret of effect-without-cause and to protect the source of that secret, the last source, now that the Ahamkara are gone. Those five played at alchemy with the Cocytus gates, turning dark dust into energy and then into matter, but they could not unlock the secrets of our mad existence." - The Witch

"How does Light make you tougher? Bullets strike your armor and then decide they didn't." - Cosmic Wind

I disagree with Causality and Fate Manipulation. Those are all just examples of the Guardians' acausality. It's why the Ahamkara are mentioned, because they are also Paracausal creatures.
Bullets deciding they didn't strike your armor refers to the Guardians' ability to heal and resurrect through the Light.

"If you believe your weapon wants to end all existence, then so it will." - Bad Juju

I agree with Subjective Reality, but the Bad Juju part should only be limited to the Bad Juju, considering the context.

Guardians can also use Ontology (It is a branch of philosophy that studies concepts such as existence, being, becoming, and reality.) to convince things they shouldn't exist :

''Applied ontology is the art of convincing things they shouldn't exist.'' - Eclipse Maw VI

The actual quote should only apply to Warlocks, as they most prominently study and utulize ontology, and would also be Existence Erasure. It also comes from a Warlock armor piece.
I am not the most knowledgeable on ontology, but wouldn't this also qualify as conceptual manipulation?

This also serves as further evidence that they don't just study it, but also apply it in combat.
"Some orders eschew all metaphysics and ontological doctrine in favor of pure combat discipline." - One True Constant

Perhaps an example of the Existence Erasure mentioned beforehand:
"Curiosity gets a Warlock into trouble, and force of will gets a Warlock out. Even novices can shear reality with a single deadly gesture." - Palm

"You will find the nightmares grow worse. Thankfully, you no longer have need of sleep." - Ego Talon Bond

It has been shown that Guardians can still tire however, so I don't think they qualify for Type 3 Self-Sustenance.

Exos do qualify though. So that can be added to Saint-14 and the Warlock profile:
"Did I ever suffer exhaustion? Someone asked the question. Or maybe I asked it of myself. Then it looked at me. This moment was real. I told it what every Exo knows: “What can’t touch you has no strength over you. And there’s no place for fatigue to latch onto me.” - Ghost Fragment

''You have been Taken.
The great fortress of your thoughts has been breached, your unity broken. The network around and within you lies ruptured. You are cut out from the fabric, a hole in the whole.
Observe this area of negative space, shaped like what once you were, and embrace a new possibility.'' - Seditious Mind

"Is this power blind? Just a natural energy Oryx discovered? I cannot believe it.
My Hidden tell me that the Taken shine with seething, negative light. As if the universe is curling up around them. As if they radiate some pathology that decays into our world as nothingness..." - The Taken

Spoiler: the taken are formless beings

Guardians already have Non-Physical Interaction, though it is possible some profiles are missing this. Several of the given examples can be addex to the justifications for NPI however. Of course this also means that Taken should get Nonexistent Physiology.

Edit: this is still being discussed.

Encrypted data inaccessible in an unknown hybrid state of matter-energy. Bring this to Failsafe in the Exodus Black on Nessus to discover its value. - Microphasic Datalattice

Vex should also get Data Manipulation for this.

• Conceptual Manipulation (for their Ghosts) : Guardians can destroy and nullify the runes of the Hive which are conceptual in nature :

To my knowledge this is only ever done by exploiting weaknesses in Hive structures or by disrupting their rituals. Do you have any examples of Guardians directly messing with the runes themselves?

Edit: we worked it out and settled on Limited Magic.

''The Protocol is contained in the patterns on the robe that, if scanned at the molecular level, describe a Turing-compatible virtual computer and program that, when executed on said computer, calculates the entire Protocol, exactly as it was determined in the Precipice of Flame.
This is of little interest to most Guardians, who can subconsciously "load" the program simply by looking at the pattern.'' - Starfire Protocol

Alternatively this could also be Information Analysis. The average Guardians doesn't really have any other genius level feats after all.

You see your Ghost clinging to it for dear life with bits of his shell.

"I thought you would never look back here!" Ghost shouts into your mind. "I've launched a battery of spectral scans off our position—what we're experiencing is real!"

You forgot to put a link here. I probably agree though, depending on further context around this.

''Suddenly, a smallish robot is floating beside the Warlock. The tinker had seen Ghosts before, but never this close. It speaks. "This is irrational. I'm capable of reproducing your Sparrow on command and in mint condition. Why pay this person to repair your old one? It increases the failure rate by 18% at minimum."

The tinker stares at the Ghost, his face reddening. He had worked day and night for two full weeks on this Sparrow, and the proceeds would keep his shop open for another three months. It was the biggest job he'd had in a year.'' - Firecrest

I agree with Creation for Ghosts. The example with Guardians that you mentioned should be Weapon Creation though.

Ghosts already have hacking.

Warlocks already have Black Hole Creation, but it is missing from other Void users, so it should be added there.

Guardians already have Teleportation, though it should probably be noted that this is done through their Ghosts if it isn't. (With the exception of Blink of course.)

"Open yourself to the Light. Glimpse, for a few rapturous moments, the truth beyond the powers you wield.
A Warlock in a state of Radiance threatens to slip beyond the bonds of the material, shrugging off physical harm, channeling a torrent of abilities. Some may learn to elevate nearby Guardians, gifting them with power. Others, entranced by the Ghosts' power to reach beyond death, may learn to pluck themselves out of nothingness like the phoenix of ancient myth." - Radiance

"The Warlock's Radiance Super makes his weapons more powerful for a time and can also have the effect of resurrecting Guardians after a fight." - WoG

They already have Statistics Amplification and Resurrection. It should still be mentioned on Ikora's page that she has High-Godly with Radiance however, just like on the Warlock page.

I agree with Intangibility.

Shin Malphur should have access to the Void (Quantum Manipulation, Space-Time Manipulation, Gravity Manipulation, Life-Absorption, Matter Manipulation (Macro-Quantum)) and Arc( Electricity Manipulation, Magnetism Manipulation) subclasses, he never used them in the lore, but accomplished guardians are able to use all three subclasses. Cayde-6, another hunter who is likely weaker than him, is capable of using all three. The same goes for Saint-14, as one of the strongest titan to ever live he should be able to use the solar subclass.

I'm neutral on Shin's case. It's completely possible that he simply never bothered to learn the other elements and instead perfected the one he started with. He is the most proficient user of Solar among Hunters after all.

Saint actaully has all three listed already.

I drive my Sparrow at breakneck speed because it reminds me of my place in the universe. It reminds me of every force that acts on me, every "law" of motion I can or can't break. I'm most interested in the ones I can't break, honestly. Considering I am myself an aberration of the laws of physics, I rather like finding the edges of things. Not that I'm content to leave those edges as they are. I just get a sort of… thrill out of finding them. - Approaching Infinity

We knew curiosity would draw you back, Auryx. In their desperation, the Ammonite have begun using paracausal weapons.
What are these? How do they work? Wouldn’t you like to know. Suffice to say that some powers in this universe are superordinate to mere material physics.
The source of these weapons is the Traveler, the Sky’s bait star. Their effect is subtle, but devastating. - XVI: The Sword Logic

I'm not sure about a plain Resistance to Physics Manipulation. It is moreso the Guardians' light that doesn't abide physics, rather than the Guardians themselves. As the given quote itself mentions, there's plenty of laws of physics that Guardians can't break. This is also reflected in the way Guardians are portrayed in both lore and gameplay in general. All the physics-defying stuns they pull are done through the Light, not some innate quality. It's kind of similar to how magic in many series breaks physics.
All in all I'm neutral on this one.

Taken passively corrupt and erase the world around them, but Guardians aren't affected.

Guardians already resist the immediate effects of Taken corruption, such as Existence Erasure. There's other cases of corruption in-verse that they don't resist, so I think it would be better to not give them a blanket resistance to corruption.

• Power mimicry, Information Analysis and Clairvoyance :

I agree, except Vex don't have Clairvoyance. They only use Information Analysis, Analytical Prediction and Precognition to gather information. Precognition is covered by Type 4 Acausality, but the other two should be listed as resistances.

It should be noted that this goes for all acausal beings in Destiny, so it wouldn't be limited to Guardian profiles. The Vex can't simulate and predict the powers of Darkness, like the Taken, either. They needed to develop a new Axis Mind specifically to analyze the Sword Logic, another paracausal power related to the Darkness, because they couldn't understand it otherwise.
There's a long list of examples that I could post if people want me to, but this is well-known among people who pay at least some attention to the story of Destiny.

Spoiler: Further additions

As for the further additions to Guardian profiles that I wanted to propose:

- Guardians should have Enhanced Senses through their radar. This is just an extremely basic part of the game.

- Guardians should have Aura.

The opposing Warlock concentrated her aura of Void energy into her hand and unleashed a supernova blast. - Tomorrow's Answer

Ana Bray also was able to emit an aura of Solar energy, but I can't find the link for this one. Guardians in general often have an elemental aura when using their super abilities.

- Any members of Ikora's Hidden should get Stealth Mastery as they're the spy network of the Guardians. They're so good at staying undetected that Ikora sometimes forgets where she placed them. This should include the Warlock profile.

- Guardians should have Absorption. They can absorb the various forms of Light, with the most common example being Orbs of Light. They absorb Taken power in the Morgeth fight. In the menagerie Guardians absorb either the Arkborn themselves or their souls. Arkborn are incorporeal lifeforms of pure Arc energy. During the Garden of Savlation raid Guardians absorb the voltaic overflow while fighting the Consecrated Mind (Sorry couldn't find a good link for this one). There's many more examples, but I think this is enough for now.


Credit to @Catalyst75

- Limited Vector Manipulation for Hunters.

Bend momentum to jump again in mid-air. Leap to even greater heights, or make a quick adjustment while airborne to disorient your foes. - Double Jump

- Status Effect Inducement for Striker Titans.

An explosive grenade that disorients the enemies it damages, leaving them vulnerable to gunfire and close combat. - Flashbang Grenade

- Guardians in general should have Martial Arts and Weapon Mastery. Saint-14 and Ikora are both missing Martial Arts.

"Close quarters combat is an essential addition to any Guardian's skillset." —Zavala

Guardians in are portrayed as super soldiers who can easily reach superhuman levels of combat skill. Here a person who had just become a Guardian defeated an entire Red Legion squad without using the Light, despite her inexperience. She was confused and ambushed by elite Cabal soldiers, but quickly turned the fight around anyway.

- Ghosts should have range that goes up to hundreds of kilometers.

This rail system was endless. It connected colonies, dig sites. I'm even detecting a line that runs all the way up to the Cradle at the North Pole. - Ghost

For reference this is while the Ghost was closer to Mars' equator than the North Pole.

- Guardians resist Disease Manipulation as shown here. A disease that puts normal humans in a coma after minutes of being afflicted and can be deadly doesn't affect them.

That took a while.

EDIT: I forgot to add this earlier, but bosses with a blanket resistance to Guardian abilities should be updated accordingly.

 

[Sakamaki_Fuji]

I have already come across a lot of this while preparing for future revisions, so I can say that Sakamaki has done his research. I would also like to make some additional propositions for powers and abilities that are not on Guardian profiles.

Spoiler: Response to the OP

For the engrams, yes this is done with Ghosts, as shown here. It should also be Information Manipulation as it is often used on physical objects.


That would be exclusive to Guardians while outside of Material Space. Since Vex Space is real in its own way, this would also fall under Information Manipulation.


I disagree with Causality and Fate Manipulation. Those are all just examples of the Guardians' acausality. It's why the Ahamkara are mentioned, because they are also Paracausal creatures.
Bullets deciding they didn't strike your armor refers to the Guardians' ability to heal and resurrect through the Light.


I agree with Subjective Reality, but the Bad Juju part should only be limited to the Bad Juju, considering the context.



The actual quote should only apply to Warlocks, as they most prominently study and utulize ontology, and would also be Existence Erasure. It also comes from a Warlock armor piece.
I am not the most knowledgeable on ontology, but wouldn't this also qualify as conceptual manipulation?

This also serves as further evidence that they don't just study it, but also apply it in combat.
"Some orders eschew all metaphysics and ontological doctrine in favor of pure combat discipline." - One True Constant

Perhaps an example of the Existence Erasure mentioned beforehand:
"Curiosity gets a Warlock into trouble, and force of will gets a Warlock out. Even novices can shear reality with a single deadly gesture." - Palm


It has been shown that Guardians can still tire however, so I don't think they qualify for Type 3 Self-Sustenance.

Exos do qualify though. So that can be added to Saint-14 and the Warlock profile:
"Did I ever suffer exhaustion? Someone asked the question. Or maybe I asked it of myself. Then it looked at me. This moment was real. I told it what every Exo knows: “What can’t touch you has no strength over you. And there’s no place for fatigue to latch onto me.” - Ghost Fragment


Guardians already have Non-Physical Interaction, though it is possible some profiles are missing this. Several of the given examples can be addex to the justifications for NPI however. Of course this also means that Taken should get Nonexistent Physiology.


Vex should also get Data Manipulation for this.


To my knowledge this is only ever done by exploiting weaknesses in Hive structures or by disrupting their rituals. Do you have any examples of Guardians directly messing with the runes themselves?


Alternatively this could also be Information Analysis. The average Guardians doesn't really have any other genius level feats after all.


You forgot to put a link here. I probably agree though, depending on further context around this.


I agree with Creation for Ghosts. The example with Guardians that you mentioned should be Weapon Creation though.

Ghosts already have hacking.

Warlocks already have Black Hole Creation, but it is missing from other Void users, so it should be added there.

Guardians already have Teleportation, though it should probably be noted that this is done through their Ghosts if it isn't. (With the exception of Blink of course.)


They already have Statistics Amplification and Resurrection. It should still be mentioned on Ikora's page that she has High-Godly with Radiance however, just like on the Warlock page.

I agree with Intangibility.


I'm neutral on Shin's case. It's completely possible that he simply never bothered to learn the other elements and instead perfected the one he started with. He is the most proficient user of Solar among Hunters after all.

Saint actaully has all three listed already.



I'm not sure about a plain Resistance to Physics Manipulation. It is moreso the Guardians' light that doesn't abide physics, rather than the Guardians themselves. As the given quote itself mentions, there's plenty of laws of physics that Guardians can't break. This is also reflected in the way Guardians are portrayed in both lore and gameplay in general. All the physics-defying stuns they pull are done through the Light, not some innate quality. It's kind of similar to how magic in many series breaks physics.
All in all I'm neutral on this one.


Guardians already resist the immediate effects of Taken corruption, such as Existence Erasure. There's other cases of corruption in-verse that they don't resist, so I think it would be better to not give them a blanket resistance to corruption.


I agree, except Vex don't gave Clairvoyance. They only use Information Analysis, Analytical Prediction and Precognition to gather information. Precognition is covered by Type 4 Acausality, but the other two should be listed as resistances.

It should be noted that this goes for all acausal beings in Destiny, so it wouldn't be limited to Guardian profiles. The Vex can't simulate and predict the powers of Darkness, like the Taken, either. They needed to develop a new Axis Mind specifically to analyze the Sword Logic, another paracausal power related to the Darkness, because they couldn't understand it otherwise.
There's a long list of examples that I could post if people want me to, but this is well-known among people who pay at least some attention to the story of Destiny.

Spoiler: Further additions

As for the further additions to Guardian profiles that I wanted to propose:

- Guardians should have Enhanced Senses through their radar. This is just an extremely basic part of the game.

- Guardians should have Aura.

Ana Bray also was able to emit an aura of Solar energy, but I can't find the link for this one. Guardians in general often have an elemental aura when using their super abilities.

- Any members of Ikora's Hidden should get Stealth Mastery as they're the spy network of the Guardians. They're so good at staying undetected that Ikora sometimes forgets where she placed them. This should include the Warlock profile.

- Guardians should have Absorption. They can absorb the various forms of Light, with the most common example being Orbs of Light. They absorb Taken power in the Morgeth fight. In the menagerie Guardians absorb either the Arkborn themselves or their souls. Arkborn are incorporeal lifeforms of pure Arc energy. During the Garden of Savlation raid Guardians absorb the voltaic overflow while fighting the Consecrated Mind (Sorry couldn't find a good link for this one). There's many more examples, but I think this is enough for now.

- Limited Vector Manipulation for Hunters.


- Status Effect Inducement for Striker Titans.


- Guardians in general should have Martial Arts and Weapon Mastery. Saint-14 and Ikora are both missing Martial Arts.

Guardians in are portrayed as super soldiers who can easily reach superhuman levels of combat skill. Here a person who had just become a Guardian defeated an entire Red Legion squad without using the Light, despite her inexperience. She was confused and ambushed by elite Cabal soldiers, but quickly turned the fight around anyway.

- Ghosts should have range that goes up to hundreds of kilometers.

For reference this is while the Ghost was closer to Mars' equator than the North Pole.

- Guardians resist Disease Manipulation as shown here. A disease that puts normal humans in a coma after minutes of being afflicted and can be deadly doesn't affect them.

That took a while.

EDIT: I forgot to add this earlier, but bosses with a blanket resistance to Guardian abilities should be updated accordingly.

Thanks for your input
Yes, I actually forgot to add the link for telepathy sorry: https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/cloak-judgment-coda?highlight=ontological+space

• data manipulation: I think it could be both, since the vex network is supposed to be made of data
• conceptual manipulation: our ghost has already directly opened doors protected by runes multiple times, for example: https://commons.ishtar-collective.net/t/adventure-deathless/1144
  • **The Guardian fights their way through more Hive infested tunnels. Ghost has to unlock some Hive runes.
    Ghost: Alright. One more time.
    
    **The Guardian kills two more Necromantis Wizards, stripping Takul-Dar, the Unbreakable of its shield, and then killing him.
    Ghost: You were right, Sloane. Apply enough firepower and apparently even Hive magic breaks.
    Sloane: Good work, both of you. You know, Holliday and I were just talking about how different we are from the Hive.
    Holliday: Yeah, yeah. They worship death, we serve the Light. Good vs. evil, black hats, white hats… really makes you think.
    Ghost: Thinking about switching sides, Amanda?
    Sloane: Oh, no. Amanda goes rogue and we’ll have Thrall buzzing the control center inside a week. Ahem. But, uh, let’s get back to work.
• manipulation/resistance to physics : I think they should at least have limited manipulation/resistance to it since the person in the lore tab literally says that he can break those laws

I agree with the rest

 

[WHYNAUT]

I see. I agree with Telepathy then.

- Well yes, but the power is generally meant for the computer kind of data. The data in Vex Space is as real as anything in material space. Ultimately my main concern is that they get Information Manipulation.

- Tbf I don't think the barrier between material space and the Ascendant Plane were eroded there. It is only when this happens that the full potential of Hive runes comes out and the difference between a word and its meaning ceases to be.
So I'm still iffy on that one.

- That's fair. I'm neutral on this and will go with whatever the majority votes for.

Btw, would you like to join the VSBW Destiny discord? If so, you can ask Wok for an invite.

 

[Sakamaki_Fuji]

I see. I agree with Telepathy then.

- Well yes, but the power is generally meant for the computer kind of data. The data in Vex Space is as real as anything in material space. Ultimately my main concern is that they get Information Manipulation.

- Tbf I don't think the barrier between material space and the Ascendant Plane were eroded there. It is only when this happens that the full potential of Hive runes comes out and the difference between a word and its meaning ceases to be.
So I'm still iffy on that one.

- That's fair. I'm neutral on this and will go with whatever the majority votes for.

Btw, would you like to join the VSBW Destiny discord? If so, you can ask Wok for an invite.

• Okay, I'm fine with Information Manipulation then
• Fair point, but then the runes would be useless, wouldn't they?
• Okay

Sure, I'll ask him

 

[WHYNAUT]

- Alright.

- Even without the dimensional barrier being eroded, Hive magic still channels the powers of Darkness, the Worm Gods or just loose energy from the Ascendant Plane that they can access without eroding the barrier. So that can explain the variety of reality warping effects it's capable of.

Nice. Having another person actively working on Destiny would be great. We could more easily do these revisions by coodinating them together.

 

[Sakamaki_Fuji]

- Alright.

- Even without the dimensional barrier being eroded, Hive magic still channels the powers of Darkness, the Worm Gods or just loose energy from the Ascendant Plane that they can access without eroding the barrier. So that can explain the variety of reality warping effects it's capable of.

Nice. Having another person actively working on Destiny would be great. We could more easily do these revisions by coodinating them together.

- Then it should still count for conceptual manipulation ? Afaik, thats the only description of them we have anw

I agree, the verse is huge and there is a lot to add, I think

 

[WHYNAUT]

- Not all Hive magic is runes, but all Hive magic derives power from these sources. So I think runes can scale to other showings of Hive magic, which means that we can just list it as reality warping and call it a day. That's what the verse does, at least when adressing the msot basic process behind it. More specific applications will be listed as whatever power they're considered on the wiki.

 

[Sakamaki_Fuji]

- Not all Hive magic is runes, but all Hive magic derives power from these sources. So I think runes can scale to other showings of Hive magic, which means that we can just list it as reality warping and call it a day. That's what the verse does, at least when adressing the msot basic process behind it. More specific applications will be listed as whatever power they're considered on the wiki.

Okay, then what does that mean for the Ghosts who can destroy or nullify them?

 

[WHYNAUT]

Limited Magic probably. Hive Magic is often likened to a different approach to science, so Ghosts being capable of reverse-engineering runes, or something to that extent, would be plausible. It's not that different from hacking.

 

[Sakamaki_Fuji]

Limited Magic probably. Hive Magic is often likened to a different approach to science, so Ghosts being capable of reverse-engineering runes, or something to that extent, would be plausible. It's not that different from hacking.

Okay, I agree

 

[WHYNAUT]

Alright. I suppose now we just have to wait for more input then.

 

[Sakamaki_Fuji]

Should I tag someone?

 

[WHYNAUT]

You've already tagged Wok, right? I also posted this in the Destiny discord. You could still tag other staff I guess.

 

[Sakamaki_Fuji]

Yeah, I already tagged Wok
Okay, I'll do that

 

[Antvasima]

@Wokistan @WHYNAUT @Catalyst75 @Ned_the_outer_god @VersusJunkie54 @DarkDragonMedeus @Serpent_of_the_Internet_97 @Mariogoods @Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye

What do you think about this?

 

[Antvasima]

Sorry. WHYNAUT was already here.

 

[Sakamaki_Fuji]

@Wokistan @WHYNAUT @Catalyst75 @Ned_the_outer_god @VersusJunkie54 @DarkDragonMedeus @Serpent_of_the_Internet_97 @Mariogoods @Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye

What do you think about this?

Thanks

 

[Antvasima]

No problem.

 

[Catalyst75]

Most of it seems fine, though I disagree with the use of the Reckoning quote. Orin is referring to the nature of the Nine, not to the nature of the Taken: Numbered (they are nine) but formless (they are made of strands of dark matter).

The Taken themselves are made of Darkness-influenced sterile neutrinos.

 

[WHYNAUT]

That doesn't adress the other two pieces of evidence given. Also I thought sterile neutrinos only accompanied Taken. I haven't come across anything that actually states the Taken themselves are made of sterile neutrinos.

 

[Sakamaki_Fuji]

Most of it seems fine, though I disagree with the use of the Reckoning quote. Orin is referring to the nature of the Nine, not to the nature of the Taken: Numbered (they are nine) but formless (they are made of strands of dark matter).

The Taken themselves are made of Darkness-influenced sterile neutrinos.

Thank for your input and the clarification, I tought she was talking about the Taken

 

[Catalyst75]

Potential — Lore Entry — Ishtar Collective — Destiny Lore by subject

— ACCESS: RESTRICTED DECRYPTION KEY: 73XK5V2PG1$AUN-326 REP #: 053-VIP-1315 AGENT(S): AUN-326 SUBJ: Psych eval

www.ishtar-collective.net

This has proven false. Spectral analysis from multiple Ghosts participating undercover in Prime and Reckoning confirms that the impossible world at the heart of "the haul" is located in unknown space. (Cf. REP #001-012-PARAC-NINE.) Further, these Primevals differ in their literal elemental composition: low SNC, high ambient ΛCDM. #1315 has harnessed his "banks" to what appears to be an engine of pure potential. He no longer needs to pilfer the Ascendant Plane of Primevals, the oldest Taken in residence. He can create Primeval-likes from the energy of "the haul" and sheer force of will.

The Taken's presence or their arrival in certain areas have usually been correlated with the detection of sterile neutrinos within the area. In contrast to the Counterfeit Taken that exist within the Nine's Unknown Space and created by the Haul, which instead have high ambient Cold Dark Matter counts.

 

[WHYNAUT]

Yes, as I said: accompanied by. We are only told what the fake Taken are made of, not the real deal. I know there's theories that propose that Taken are related to one of the upcoming Darkness elements because of the sterile neutrinos and that they're made of those. But we have yet to get confirmation on that front. Until then there's multiple pieces of lore that seem to indicate that Taken are nonexistences.

 

[Catalyst75]

Something I would add to the CRT would be Energy Absorption -

The ability to absorb different forms of energy and use it pops up in many different circumstances, often in Raid encounters, sometimes in other activities.

 

[WHYNAUT]

Yeah, I proposed that as well. You found the perfect clip for it though! Quite irrefutable.

 

[Sakamaki_Fuji]

I just found something interresting, it seems like weapons perks exist is universe: https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/solstice-mask-rekindled?highlight=solstice
Im not sure what kinda power it would be tho since they are so diverse

Edit : Probably reality warping

 

[Catalyst75]

Yes, as I said: accompanied by. We are only told what the fake Taken are made of, not the real deal. I know there's theories that propose that Taken are related to one of the upcoming Darkness elements because of the sterile neutrinos and that they're made of those. But we have yet to get confirmation on that front. Until then there's multiple pieces of lore that seem to indicate that Taken are nonexistences.

Sterile neutrinos are considered a theoretical dark matter candidate in their own right. If you go to Ishtar Collective and type in "sterile neutrino(s)" (the quotations greatly narrow down the search), sterile neutrinos and even phaetons (dark sector photons) almost always accompany powerful forces of Darkness, whether it be the Pyramid Fleet or Oryx's Dreadnaught.

The quote I shared above also discusses the Taken's elemental composition: the low SNC most likely refers to "low Sterile Neutrino Count", while the Taken usually have high sterile neutrino counts.

 

[Catalyst75]

I just found something interresting, it seems like weapons perks exist is universe: https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/solstice-mask-rekindled?highlight=solstice
Im not sure what kinda power it would be tho since they are so diverse

Edit : Probably reality warping

No, it just refers to how each individual weapon was made with different specs.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out Catalyst.

 

[Sakamaki_Fuji]

No, it just refers to how each individual weapon was made with different specs.

I totally forgot about that, thanks

 

[Sakamaki_Fuji]

Bump

 

[InfiniteDay]

Seems good.

 

[WHYNAUT]

Sterile neutrinos are considered a theoretical dark matter candidate in their own right. If you go to Ishtar Collective and type in "sterile neutrino(s)" (the quotations greatly narrow down the search), sterile neutrinos and even phaetons (dark sector photons) almost always accompany powerful forces of Darkness, whether it be the Pyramid Fleet or Oryx's Dreadnaught.

The quote I shared above also discusses the Taken's elemental composition: the low SNC most likely refers to "low Sterile Neutrino Count", while the Taken usually have high sterile neutrino counts.

Right, I missed the SNC part. Well, for now we'll go with Taken being made of various forms of Dark Matter. Wouldn't they still be intangible? So they can be added as an example of NPI. And the Intangibility would need to be added to the pages.

@Everyone

Also to the people who came in later and agreed: does that include the additions I worked out with Sakamaki and Catalyst?

 

[InfiniteDay]

Also to the people who came in later and agreed: does that include the additions I worked out with Sakamaki and Catalyst?

It does.

 

[Catalyst75]

Right, I missed the SNC part. Well, for now we'll go with Taken being made of various forms of Dark Matter. Wouldn't they still be intangible? So they can be added as an example of NPI. And the Intangibility would need to be added to the pages.

Depends on how it is interpreted. Non-paracausal factions like the Vex can still fight the Taken with their weapons. In my opinion, it's more like a unique form of physiology and existence, given the act of creating Taken is described as an "ontological weapon".

 

[Antvasima]

What are the conclusions here so far?